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Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #47: On balance, bartering, and the wide open hubs of L.A.

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tags: Chris Keenan; InXile Entertainment; Wasteland 2

Tonight, we have a long Wasteland 2 Kickstarter update seemingly aimed at addressing the concerns of certain Codexers. It talks about gameplay length. It talks about balance. It shows the new barter UI. And most interestingly, it reveals something of the nature of Wasteland 2's second act, set in Los Angeles, and the sorts of things we'll find there. Here come the excerpts:

Chris here to give you a snapshot on our current progress. First off, the next beta update is being wrapped up! It’s been in testing for the past few weeks and we’re putting the final touches on it as I write this. You can expect it to go live next week.

This beta update will include the first release of the Linux build, new merchant UI elements, the Missile Silo map, the Darwin Village map, an updated leadership skill, a few new enemies with unique AI (I dare you to get in combat with the suicide monks…), many additional balance tweaks, tutorial, lots of optimization and oh-so-much more. As always, we will put full patch notes up on our tumblr when the patch goes live.

One thing we were excited to look into were stats showing how long people were playing the game. It can be hard for a developer to estimate exactly how long a game takes because even when playing through fully, we're still too familiar with it to not go through it fast. But now that we've had people playing it and based on how long they've been taking on the live content, we can estimate the full game will likely take the average new player around 50 hours on a normal playthrough. Though it'll take quite a bit longer if you're looking to fully explore every location and mission.

Now let's talk development: at this stage we are working not just on beta builds and polishing those areas, but on tweaking the game's systems and taking lessons learned from beta feedback and applying them throughout the game. Every day our level designers are adding new touches and various levels of reactivity to the game. For example, in this next update you'll find major areas are now open to you right from the moment you leave Ranger Citadel, rather than being plot-gated.

As we're finishing up more Arizona areas we are intensifying our work on Los Angeles, and for the entire game we are making great progress. Much of the team is on California right now, adding layer after layer of depth into the current design.​

Here's a bit about the game balance:

Wasteland 2 as it stands has not had many balance passes done, and that influences how balanced the attribute and skill system may seem. In the currently live builds, you might feel like you’re leveling up more often than you should or you have too many skill points. This is intentional as part of the goal is to have you try out the various options and give us feedback.

One very significant system we have not yet put in is the tying together of attributes and skills, where the skills are either capped or heavily influenced by a specific attribute. This is an important balancing factor in a party-based cRPG like ours, because you are likely to have a total of seven party members not far into the game and will have a large pool of skill points to use. It continues to tie into one of our pillars of having to make difficult choices that will affect gameplay. Early on in the final game, this heavy feel of a multi-talented group will remain, but once we start putting our caps and ties system in, you will need to be more careful in your skill choices when you progress further into the game. Of course, by this point, you will have tried a variety of skills and become more informed about what you wish to focus on and how to spread your skills among various characters.

In general, we pride ourselves in our flexibility to adapt our systems based on feedback and internal and external discussion, a good example of which would be our Ranger Corner thread where we asked for feedback on charisma, with my reply and thoughts here. Charisma was the attribute most in need of updates to make it more viable, and we are constantly evaluating and modifying the way our attributes work.
And about L.A.:

With these areas dominated by strong factions that have no familiarity with the Desert Rangers, this opens up great new possibilities for us to challenge and offer diverse choices for you. One faction may have an internal conflict, a splinter group with beliefs that differ from dogma, giving the opportunity to choose one side or play them out against each other, or re-unify them. But another may have an external enemy with no chance of reconciliation, a conflict the player might decide is best to avoid entirely, but one which they can also use to their advantage to help one side gain dominance and wipe the other side out.

Many L.A. areas are in a state of equilibrium as you arrive at them (though not all are, some may require immediate action), giving you more time to explore the "towns" of various shapes and size, and get familiar with the people and the faction's beliefs, trade, resolve smaller missions, or even progress without ever triggering any conflict at all. Los Angeles shines in a strong variety of locations. That variety evincing itself not just in visuals and flavor of the location, but also in how open or guided an area is, how conflict or hub-oriented it is, etc. etc.

Here is a behind-the-scenes look at one of our LA levels in the Unity editor. This town – built around the Watts Towers – is between the stages of Wild West and civilized, the arrival of the Rangers may well determine which way it goes…

2db27999e5370a239af5a7ce6c0caa5a_large.png

Since such a high-level view may seem a bit obscure, here is a closer level render (but with the camera still further out than it would be in-game). Each building can be entered, making Watts the kind of open hub that you could find around the halfway point of Wasteland 1.
Yes, this is definitely a good update. Keep 'em coming, inXile.
 

toro

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Finally a good level design! They actually learn pretty fast!

Not really. The entire area is closed in an artificial way, the roads make no sense and the quality of assets is close to shit. Basically it's a circus.
 

felipepepe

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Yeah, we're happy that they finally understood the basic shit, not praising it to the heavenz for masterfully designed environments... even so, I can forgive a bit of nonsense and bad assets if the area is FUN.
 

TwinkieGorilla

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Well, to be honest...shitty assests aside, from the top down it DOES look like a WL1 area.
 
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A look at the closer render shows you won't see the weird elevated terrain on the outside and roads going nowhere during gameplay. (wonder what that green building to the right on the high-level view picture is, then...)
 

SuicideBunny

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(wonder what that green building to the right on the high-level view picture is, then...)
looks like a tunnel. so i guess levels are actually flat and you need to contain separate levels somewhere else on the maps.
 

BGMD

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With these areas dominated by strong factions that have no familiarity with the Desert Rangers, this opens up great new possibilities for us to challenge and offer diverse choices for you. One faction may have an internal conflict, a splinter group with beliefs that differ from dogma, giving the opportunity to choose one side or play them out against each other, or re-unify them. But another may have an external enemy with no chance of reconciliation, a conflict the player might decide is best to avoid entirely, but one which they can also use to their advantage to help one side gain dominance and wipe the other side out.

Many L.A. areas are in a state of equilibrium as you arrive at them (though not all are, some may require immediate action), giving you more time to explore the "towns" of various shapes and size, and get familiar with the people and the faction's beliefs, trade, resolve smaller missions, or even progress without ever triggering any conflict at all. Los Angeles shines in a strong variety of locations.

This is something that kinda bugged me for a long time ever since starting maps (from Prison video) being referred to as more linear, indirectly indicating that LA was always meant to be meat of the game with most significant factions which this quoted part of the update partially confirms.
We have two largely disconnected parts of the game (Arizona - smaller, LA - bigger) with barely any connectivity and separate maps, LA being a complete mystery to Desert Rangers. I've had a hard time figuring out how exactly would these "crucial" decisions from Arizona transfer to LA area (referring to Fargo's "decisions have ripple effects in other areas of the Wasteland" from update 40).

It seems like Arizona is here primarily to railroad players to LA and give some throwbacks to first game/introduce Desert Rangers to new players. It's a missed opportunity if Arizona really just serves as a long-winded intro. What does matter if I choose to save a food source or water reserves if I don't really need to care about anything by the time I reach LA?
 

Grotesque

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Whats the news on the ranger headquarters in the L.A. area? As I remember, it was said that you can establish a forward base there which you can upgrade with different facilities and unlock different perks/gameplay options.
 

undecaf

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Nice update. I'd be keen on trying out how the attribute-skill interplay works out.

Wasn't there also some talk about some form of perk or trait system at some point? Has that been scrapped since there's been nothing about it in a good while, or was it just some maybe-maybe not -talk?
 
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Nice update. I'd be keen on trying out how the attribute-skill interplay works out.

Wasn't there also some talk about some form of perk or trait system at some point? Has that been scrapped since there's been nothing about it in a good while, or was it just some maybe-maybe not -talk?

Long time ago Brother None said that it is terribly unbalanced so it is only in an internal beta. Curious myself about the current status and I fear it was cut :(
 

undecaf

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Nice update. I'd be keen on trying out how the attribute-skill interplay works out.

Wasn't there also some talk about some form of perk or trait system at some point? Has that been scrapped since there's been nothing about it in a good while, or was it just some maybe-maybe not -talk?

Long time ago Brother None said that it is terribly unbalanced so it is only in an internal beta. Curious myself about the current status and I fear it was cut :(

I didn't know about the internal beta part.

Maybe Brother None could shed a glimpse of light on how that stuff is doing, or if it is doing anything at all.
 

Wizfall

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Wow, an actual W1-like hub. Nice.
It was also the first thing that i though, at last something looking like W1 and other old school games design wise :)
This and the fact that "major areas are now open to you right from the moment you leave Ranger Citadel" are very good news.
The map may not be perfect but it is so much better and "close" to the original that i feel it would be unfair to criticize it.

Too bad W2 overall structure/map/level designs until now was designed like crappy modern cRPG, the opposite way of old games like W1, Ultima 4/5 or Fallout 1/2 where free exploration was a huge part of the game's interest.
It was really shameful, considering the goal was to make an "old school" game, to find that InXile borrowed so much of Dragon Age and other corridors cRPG in that aspect.

So i'm personally glad that they seemed to have changed their mind.
I fear it is too late to drastically change the game's fundamentally flawed structure design (for a successor of W1 at least ) but i now believe W2 could be much better and a worthy first attempt by InXile to making an old school cRPG.
 

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Yes, non-Wasteland 1-like area design has been my personal pet peeve with the game since day one. This one looks exactly like what I wanted when I backed the game -- too bad most areas probably won't be like this.

I don't care about "realism" or crap like that; no need to make combat as tactical as JA2 either - just make the area and quest design similar to W1 and I'll be a happy backer. Also please don't listen to those who want to remove keywords, thx.
 

Decado

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I don't like how they keep spilling the beans about all of these factions. Let me find this shit out in the game, instead of telling me what they're all about before I start playing.
 

toro

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Not really. The entire area is closed in an artificial way, the roads make no sense and the quality of assets is close to shit. Basically it's a circus.
Basically, it looks like a fortified place.

I *know* what is the intention but come on ... they moved entire sections of a highway just to fortify this place. That requires more effort than building a Fort/Bunker from scratch!?

The entire area is closed in an artificial way
And if you take a closer look at it, you see that the residents themselves probably did that. I kind of doubt things started collapsing on their own to form a wall.

Like I said before, it doesn't make sense. Look at the fucking roads and adjacent building, no coherence what-so-ever. They simply gathered a bunch of assets a la Fallout 3.
Looks like a significant improvement over what I've seen in the game so far. :incline:

Agree. But is still a long way from anything that I would call good. And I don't want to bitch just because I can but I want to see some professional work. I'm sick of excuses saying that the screenshot looks bad because they forgot some fucking filter or that the UI will have another iteration or that they will change the nature of a corridor. They fuck around and the game becomes more depressing with each update ... and personally, I'm on the edge about it. Ghost of a Tale has more impressive screenshots. And that's basically one guy.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Not really. The entire area is closed in an artificial way, the roads make no sense and the quality of assets is close to shit. Basically it's a circus.
Basically, it looks like a fortified place.

I *know* what is the intention but come on ... they moved entire sections of a highway just to fortify this place. That requires more effort than building a Fort/Bunker from scratch!?

The entire area is closed in an artificial way
And if you take a closer look at it, you see that the residents themselves probably did that. I kind of doubt things started collapsing on their own to form a wall.

Like I said before, it doesn't make sense. Look at the fucking roads and adjacent building, no coherence what-so-ever. They simply gathered a bunch of assets a la Fallout 3.

You do realize that you're complaining about something that would have fit in perfectly in the first Wasteland. We've been over this before:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ess-now-available.88397/page-163#post-3184444
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ess-now-available.88397/page-163#post-3184544
 

toro

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Not really. The entire area is closed in an artificial way, the roads make no sense and the quality of assets is close to shit. Basically it's a circus.
Basically, it looks like a fortified place.

I *know* what is the intention but come on ... they moved entire sections of a highway just to fortify this place. That requires more effort than building a Fort/Bunker from scratch!?

The entire area is closed in an artificial way
And if you take a closer look at it, you see that the residents themselves probably did that. I kind of doubt things started collapsing on their own to form a wall.

Like I said before, it doesn't make sense. Look at the fucking roads and adjacent building, no coherence what-so-ever. They simply gathered a bunch of assets a la Fallout 3.

You do realize that you're complaining about something that would have fit in perfectly in the first Wasteland. We've been over this before:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ess-now-available.88397/page-163#post-3184444
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ess-now-available.88397/page-163#post-3184544

Define underwhelming.
 

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