Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Wise Emperor]

Infinitron That kills the joy of leveling up. It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

 

[Infinitron]

It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

Why "most"? It's one skill. A skill that is meant to be basically a one-to-one reflection of a character's Strength attribute.

There's just one other skill like that - Perception, which is a reflection of Awareness.

 

[Grunker]

It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

Why "most"? It's one skill. A skill that is meant to be basically a one-to-one reflection of a character's Strength attribute.

So... why is it a skill?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

What Wise Emperor said. The whole point of having skills included in the first place is that regardless of how high your mental/physical attributes are, you start out (relatively) unskilled and have to progress to become skilled. The problem with Brute Force is that it essentially makes something unskilled (i.e. attribute-based) into a skill (I'm pretty sure one of the synonyms of "brute" is even "unskilled"). The point of my post was that I don't think you can't fix this deficiency by any workaround, you should just leave it out.

 

[Infinitron]

It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

Why "most"? It's one skill. A skill that is meant to be basically a one-to-one reflection of a character's Strength attribute.

So... why is it a skill?

Clarity of presentation. Separation of concerns.

If you make "Strength" an attribute that you can use, then what about the other attributes? Can I "use" my Charisma by pointing and clicking it at something? Can I "use" my Coordination? My Speed? What sense does that make?

The whole point of having skills included in the first place is that regardless of how high your mental/physical attributes are, you start out (relatively) unskilled and have to progress to become skilled.

The whole point, eh? Is there a rule somewhere that says there can't be skills that work differently?

 

[Grunker]

It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

Why "most"? It's one skill. A skill that is meant to be basically a one-to-one reflection of a character's Strength attribute.

So... why is it a skill?

Clarity of presentation. Separation of concerns.

If you make "Strength" an attribute that you can use, then what about the other attributes? Can I "use" my Charisma by pointing and clicking it at something? Can I "use" my Coordination? My Speed? What sense does that make?

But this game isn't about balance. It's about legacy and discovery. You just told me.

 

[Infinitron]

It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

Why "most"? It's one skill. A skill that is meant to be basically a one-to-one reflection of a character's Strength attribute.

So... why is it a skill?

Clarity of presentation. Separation of concerns.

If you make "Strength" an attribute that you can use, then what about the other attributes? Can I "use" my Charisma by pointing and clicking it at something? Can I "use" my Coordination? My Speed? What sense does that make?

But this game isn't about balance. It's about legacy and discovery. You just told me.

WTF does balance have to do with it

It's about having a user interface that makes sense.

 

[Rake]

It would mean that big, stupid character have most of his "class" skills covered from start and know his on his way to becoming brain surgeon.

Why "most"? It's one skill. A skill that is meant to be basically a one-to-one reflection of a character's Strength attribute.

So... why is it a skill?

Clarity of presentation. Separation of concerns.

If you make "Strength" an attribute that you can use, then what about the other attributes? Can I "use" my Charisma by pointing and clicking it at something? Can I "use" my Coordination? My Speed? What sense does that make?

But this game isn't about balance. It's about legacy and discovery. You just told me.

WTF does balance have to do with it

It's about having a user interface that makes sense.

What has user interface has to do with it? You could click on the door,get an option to "bash brute force it open, and the game checks your strenght behind the sceens. It would not be a "click strenght, apply it on a chest"

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

The whole point of having skills included in the first place is that regardless of how high your mental/physical attributes are, you start out (relatively) unskilled and have to progress to become skilled.

The whole point, eh? Is there a rule somewhere that says there can't be skills that work differently?

But then what's the point of the attribute/skills division in the first place? If, per your suggestion, a ST 10 already has a (practically) maxed out set of strength related skills, then they completely lose their purpose.

WTF does balance have to do with it

It's about having a user interface that makes sense.

So? Then make it an unimprovable 1-on-1 representation of Strength, and nobody complains.

 

[Infinitron]

But then what's the point of the attribute/skills division in the first place?

Like I said, clarity and consistency of presentation.

Let's say you're in dialogue and you need to persuade somebody. What should be checked? Your Charisma attribute, or your "Kiss Ass" skill?

Let's say you're in combat, slashing at somebody with a machete. What determines how much damage you do? Your Strength attribute, or your "Bladed Weapons" skill?

Not separating these things makes it much harder for the designers to keep a simple, consistent design, and makes it much harder for players to understand what's going on.

So? Then make it an unimprovable 1-on-1 representation of Strength, and nobody complains.

Yes, maybe they should do that, but I can understand them not wanting to, for consistency's sake.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Let's say you're in combat, slashing at somebody with a machete. What determines how much damage you do? Your Strength attribute, or your "Bladed Weapons" skill?

In any crpg I've ever played, neither: it's determined by melee damage (or some variation), which is an unimprovable secondary stat. Did that seriously ever confuse anyone? You can just look it up in the character screen.

Not separating these things makes it much harder for the designers to keep a simple, consistent design, and makes it much harder for players to understand what's going on.

By all means, separate, but crpgs have had the difference between improvable and non-improvable secondary stats for ages now to make this possible without doing silly things like make "use strength" a skill.

 

[Sensuki]

The whole point, eh? Is there a rule somewhere that says there can't be skills that work differently?

There is in Project Eternity. Why should Wasteland 2 have skills that work differently and Project Eternity shouldnt ?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

The whole point, eh? Is there a rule somewhere that says there can't be skills that work differently?

There is in Project Eternity. Why should Wasteland 2 have skills that work differently and Project Eternity shouldnt ?

Hypocrisy. Thats why.

 

[Diablo169]

RPS article sounds much better when I'm not drunk.

 

[Excidium]

But then what's the point of the attribute/skills division in the first place?

Like I said, clarity and consistency of presentation.

Let's say you're in dialogue and you need to persuade somebody. What should be checked? Your Charisma attribute, or your "Kiss Ass" skill?

Kiss Ass obviously. It's the applied use of charisma to persuade through charm. Charisma directly should be used like for an empathy check or something like that, I don't remember if they have a skill like that. BS Detector could be it but seems specific to notice lies.

Let's say you're in combat, slashing at somebody with a machete. What determines how much damage you do? Your Strength attribute, or your "Bladed Weapons" skill?

Strength and the natural damage of the weapon should determine the base damage. Higher Bladed Weapons skill might affect damage indirectly, more regular critical strikes, higher accuracy for striking other body parts that might suffer more damage with aimed attacks.

 

[Infinitron]

But then what's the point of the attribute/skills division in the first place?

Like I said, clarity and consistency of presentation.

Let's say you're in dialogue and you need to persuade somebody. What should be checked? Your Charisma attribute, or your "Kiss Ass" skill?

Kiss Ass obviously. It's the applied use of charisma to persuade through charm. Charisma directly should be used like for an empathy check or something like that, I don't remember if they have a skill like that. BS Detector could be it but seems specific to notice lies.

Let's say you're in combat, slashing at somebody with a machete. What determines how much damage you do? Your Strength attribute, or your "Bladed Weapons" skill?

Strength and the natural damage of the weapon should determine the base damage. Higher Bladed Weapons skill might affect damage indirectly, more regular critical strikes, higher accuracy for striking other body parts that might suffer more damage with aimed attacks.

Congratulations, you've just added a ton of complexity, ambiguity and potential for inconsistency to the game, making life harder for both the designers and the players, in a game that already has an almost unbelievably ambitious scope and low budget.

 

[Excidium]

But then what's the point of the attribute/skills division in the first place?

Like I said, clarity and consistency of presentation.

Let's say you're in dialogue and you need to persuade somebody. What should be checked? Your Charisma attribute, or your "Kiss Ass" skill?

Kiss Ass obviously. It's the applied use of charisma to persuade through charm. Charisma directly should be used like for an empathy check or something like that, I don't remember if they have a skill like that. BS Detector could be it but seems specific to notice lies.

Let's say you're in combat, slashing at somebody with a machete. What determines how much damage you do? Your Strength attribute, or your "Bladed Weapons" skill?

Strength and the natural damage of the weapon should determine the base damage. Higher Bladed Weapons skill might affect damage indirectly, more regular critical strikes, higher accuracy for striking other body parts that might suffer more damage with aimed attacks.

Congratulations, you've just added a ton of complexity and ambiguity to the system, making life harder for both the designers and the players in a game that already has an almost unbelievably ambitious scope and low budget.

What? How is that a ton of complexity or ambiguity?

This doesn't really make it harder for anyone, it's just logic.

 

[Infinitron]

What? How is that a ton of complexity or ambiguity?

This doesn't really make it harder for anyone, it's just logic.

"Charisma directly should be used like for an empathy check or something like that". Totally unambiguous bro!

Don't you see how that's a nightmare in game being created by multiple designers? One designer likes using lots of skill checks. The other one likes using direct stat checks. The player who's created an uncharismatic character but tried to make up for it by pumping his social skills high doesn't understand why everybody in the second designer's area hates him. Inconsistency city, here we come!

Even using skill checks alone is hard enough to keep consistent, what with all the numerical disparity involved.

 

[Darth Roxor]

i agree

check dis table on the right, it adds so much complexity and ambiguity, how can anyone play those confusing old gaemz l0l

good that we had bethesda to improve this clusterfuck

 

[Infinitron]

check dis table on the right, it adds so much complexity and ambiguity, how can anyone play those confusing old gaemz l0l

good that we had bethesda to improve this clusterfuck

The table on the right is what I'm advocating for. A skill-centric game. Excidium would like to involve the table on the left as well.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Excidium would like to involve the table on the left as well.

Like it should be in any self-respecting RPG then

 

[Infinitron]

Excidium would like to involve the table on the left as well.

Like it should be in any self-respecting RPG then

Oh? Fallout is primarily a skill-centric game, where the primary function of the stats is applying a modifier to the skills. I'm not sure to what degree Fallout uses the SPECIAL stats directly - can anybody answer this question?

 

[Excidium]

What? How is that a ton of complexity or ambiguity?

This doesn't really make it harder for anyone, it's just logic.

"Charisma directly should be used like for an empathy check or something like that". Totally unambiguous bro!

Hurp. Give me the design document and I'll tell you something more detailed.

Don't you see how that's a nightmare in game being created by multiple designers? One designer likes using lots of skill checks. The other one likes using direct stat checks. The player who's created an uncharismatic character but tried to make up for it by pumping his social skills high doesn't understand why everybody in the second designer's area hates him. Inconsistency city, here we come!

Even using skill checks alone is hard enough to keep consistent, what with all the numerical disparity involved.

Dude that's like every fucking RPG ever. Those two designers are retarded and I hope that isn't the reality at InXile.

Even using skill checks alone is hard enough to keep consistent, what with all the numerical disparity involved.

Just follow logic. If I can't use ability in a situation where it would be very logical to do so, designers failed. CRPGs got a lot better on that over time.

 

[felipepepe]

Don't you see how that's a nightmare in game being created by multiple designers? One designer likes using lots of skill checks. The other one likes using direct stat checks. The player who's created an uncharismatic character but tried to make up for it by pumping his social skills high doesn't understand why everybody in the second designer's area hates him. Inconsistency city, here we come!

That's bad design consistency, not any system's fault. Say designer A loves melee combat and designer B loves snipers... choose one and the other area of the game will hate you!

If the designers can't agree among themselves to keep a certain consistency thought the game, it will be a shitty game, no matter the system you use.

Let's say you're in combat, slashing at somebody with a machete. What determines how much damage you do? Your Strength attribute, or your "Bladed Weapons" skill?

Strength and the natural damage of the weapon should determine the base damage. Higher Bladed Weapons skill might affect damage indirectly, more regular critical strikes, higher accuracy for striking other body parts that might suffer more damage with aimed attacks.

IMHO, Skill = chance to hit; Strength attribute = bonus base damage. Perhaps a % bonus to damage if the skill is very high - Fallout had perks for that and it worked well.

 

[Infinitron]

Just follow logic. If I can't use X skill or ability in a situation where it would be very logical to do so, designers failed. CRPGs got a lot better on that over time.

What "logic" is there in numerical skill values that are abstractions of reality? Chris Avellone thinks a Lockpick score of 50 is high enough to open a reinforced door. Nathan Long thinks it's more around 70. Discuss!!

Dude that's like every fucking RPG ever. Those two designers are retarded and I hope that isn't the reality in InXile.

The reality at inXile is that they're making an incredibly ambitious yet low budget game in record time and they need to minimize these elements of ambiguity and inconsistency as much as they can.

If you want to call that retarded, then so be it.