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Torment Was Planescape: Torment really a commercial failure? Fallout sold fewer copies but got a sequel

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,612
Many games are "profitable" in a sense that the revenues are greater than the investment, few games are commercially successful.

[...]
As an example, I told one of teams in late 1996 that it would be a good idea for us to make a game using Bioware's Infinity Engine, the Planescape license, to have the game based in Sigil (an area in the Planescape world) and to have the player go to at least two other "dimensions". The product that came out of that was Torment. Torment was totally different than the game that I expected, but it fulfilled what I had suggested to them and it was commercially successful.

Feargus Urquhart
- Black Isle CEO 2001

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3068/interview_with_black_isle_studios_.php?print=1
It's a CEO's (of a *public* company) job to assure the public that all products are commercially successful and everything is going great. Right until the moment Black Isle was closed down (I assume because its games were too commercially successful).

It's the opposite, since Interplay was a public company at the time this is most likely true. I didn't see shareholders class actions about PS:T ROI :roll: and for sure they didn't cheat on the books, or did they?
 

Xzar

Augur
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Messages
241
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Ukraine
VD arguments sound wise, yet somehow I expect PoE2 will sell slightly better than original.

I guess it all comes down whether the game, or part of it, was memorable. Not necessarily good mechanically or artistically, but memorable. If so, than there is lesser need for marketing. Old PS1-era Tomb Raider games were bland copypasta with little to no innovation, yet sold consistently well because when people recognized Lara on cover they were assured that at least its not a complete garbage. This apparently doesnt work with pure violence themes - Hatred was/is recognizable title, yet not very successful and niche. Mortal Kombat combined violence and sex appeal, and added a rather complex cosmology. Thats why this franchise survived long period of stagnation between MK4 and MKA, and since MK9 sells well again.
 
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Lurker King

Self-Ejected
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As you probably noticed a number of indie and not so indie sequels have done very poorly lately, selling anywhere from 10 to 30% of the original title - XCOM2, Banner's Saga 2, Legend of Grimrock 2, Blackguards 2, etc. My explanation of this phenomenon is that unless you have a AAA blockbuster with massive appeal, you don't go for a sequel because it would never sell as much as the original because the public perspective would be "it's more of the same".

RoA2 sold more than RoA, FO2 sold more than FO, BG2 sold more than BG, Diablo 2 sold more than Diablo.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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VD arguments sound wise, yet somehow I expect PoE2 will sell slightly better than original.
Probably. Yet many people bought Pillars expecting that old BG magic but didn't find it there. So it's a question of whether or not Obsidian can replace those who didn't like it or didn't like it enough to buy a sequel and attract new players. Since Pillars 2 is a classic case of more of the same, it would be interesting to see the reception.

As you probably noticed a number of indie and not so indie sequels have done very poorly lately, selling anywhere from 10 to 30% of the original title - XCOM2, Banner's Saga 2, Legend of Grimrock 2, Blackguards 2, etc. My explanation of this phenomenon is that unless you have a AAA blockbuster with massive appeal, you don't go for a sequel because it would never sell as much as the original because the public perspective would be "it's more of the same".

RoA2 sold more than RoA, FO2 sold more than FO, BG2 sold more than BG, Diablo 2 sold more than Diablo.
First, the market changed a LOT since those days. Legend of Grimrock vastly outsold Fallout 1 & 2 combined and hit almost as much as Diablo which was simply inconceivable in those days. Second, Diablo and BG are the above mentioned "AAA blockbusters with massive appeal".
 
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You people are way off. Company CEOs see far into the future with their business instincts. Using his version of the Farsight spell, Brian Far(sight)go peered into the mists of times for each of these two venerable games (Fallout and PS:T). When he gazed into the future of PS:T, he saw Numanuma writ across Codex's wrath, but when he looked at Fallout's fate, he saw post-apocalyptic vampires, gamebryo animations, a giant robot, and Moira Brown. And a pile of money to match the inanity of each. How was he to know that the pile would come not to him but to Todd Howard?
 

Severian Silk

Guest
The reason PST sequel wasn't made is because it would have sucked! Thankfully, the Powers That Be made the right decision at Interplay and didn't release it.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
As you probably noticed a number of indie and not so indie sequels have done very poorly lately, selling anywhere from 10 to 30% of the original title - XCOM2, Banner's Saga 2, Legend of Grimrock 2, Blackguards 2, etc. My explanation of this phenomenon is that unless you have a AAA blockbuster with massive appeal, you don't go for a sequel because it would never sell as much as the original because the public perspective would be "it's more of the same".
I think your explanation of said phenomenon might be off. I think the reason in today's environment of plenty with Steam accounts sporting 500-1000+ games and backlogs that no mortal could complete is simpler. In the cases of the games mentioned I don't think I've really managed to finish any of them, since they are usually not 5-10 hour games, but more 20-50+ hour titles that are often not of the especially captivating kind where you don't even want to take a break or absolutely can't wait to see what happens next. In my case I own the first part of all titles mentioned, but there's no reason to get the sequel before I'm finished with them, I think one I played to about 30%, another to about 70% and the other two I own but haven't even started. For some reason I also own the sequels of two of said franchises due to large amount of bundling lately in which they just happened to be.

Pay attention to the Achievements for games that give them for completing acts or finishing a game and see what the percentage of players is that actually finishes a game (it's usually around 10-30% - Blackguards: 7.5%; Legend of Grimrock: 10%; Banner Saga 16%; X-COM:EU 27%), so why buy the sequel for a game you haven't finished the prequel for (or haven't even gotten around to start it), when you could just play the first one some more?. Other reasons for not getting a sequel would also be obvious for buyers of the first one e.g. they didn't like it, or liked it but thought it wasn't worth the price, or they might get it at some point later etc. It's a lot easier to justify putting down money for an entirely new experience to see how it is than for a sequel to a game you haven't even finished yet.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Legend of Grimrock vastly outsold Fallout 1 & 2 combined and hit almost as much as Diablo which was simply inconceivable in those days. Second, Diablo and BG are the above mentioned "AAA blockbusters with massive appeal".
That said, I think you really can't overstate what a difference is made in pricing between games then and now. I'm not sure how big a cut retailers took in comparison to Steam (surely bigger, but not sure how much bigger, though it's an answerable question, I'm sure). But a game that sells for $50 could sell 10% the number of copies of Grimrock and gross a higher sum. Perhaps a much higher sum, as I suspect given the number of bundles it's been in the average price of Grimrock is in the $2-$4 area. It's easy to lose sight of this -- for example, Gemini Rue has outsold most Lucas Arts adventure games, but I am extremely confident that it grossed a tiny fraction of what they did.

I'd add that I think the problem with the "sequels do worse" analysis from a data standpoint is that the data we're looking at is pretty noisy. I think it's definitely true that there was a Steam indie boom period, which has since diminished. Since at least some of these games, like Grimrock, are from that boom period, it's hard to know whether the diminished sales of their sequels relate to changes in the market as a whole rather than diminished interest in sequels. Also, bundles can so ridiculously overstate the number of copies sold that it is possible (by no means likely) that some of these games are performing similarly to their original releases if you take bundles out of the mix. There may also be title-specific factors at work. For example, Grimrock sold like gangbusters because it looked pretty and a huge percentage of purchasers (including me, actually) didn't fully realize what the gameplay was. Banner Saga was also very pretty but purchasers/backers could have been underwhelmed by the gameplay based surprise at how boring Oregon Trail style gameplay is (I thought it would be great -- one reason I backed Banner Saga was that I had long dreamed of using that same gameplay backbone) or based on the ways in which the combat has a dissatisfying feel (the way enemies are always so heavily armored, for example. Also, Grimrock did not, strictly speaking, offer "more of the same" -- it's pretty significantly different.

Since most of my data relates to my peer group of adventure games, what I'll say is that in the same period these sequels performed poorly, WEG's sales of entirely new titles followed a similar trajectory. Gemini Rue, Primordia, and Resonance all sold >40k copies their first year based on what I can find in publicly available data; none of the subsequent WEG titles seem to have come close -- all had to be bundled to break 15k copies. It's possible that GR, P, and R were simply oodles better than A Golden Wake, Technobabylon, and Shardlight, but I'm not persuaded. I think the market just changed in some respect.

Anyway, I think VD's instinct is probably right on this, but I'm not 100% convinced.
 
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Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
Pay attention to the Achievements for games that give them for completing acts or finishing a game and see what the percentage of players is that actually finishes a game (it's usually around 10-30% - Blackguards: 7.5%; Legend of Grimrock: 10%; Banner Saga 16%; X-COM:EU 27%), so why buy the sequel for a game you haven't finished the prequel for

I see this word being used in this way, but isn't a prequel a sequel that takes place before the original. I don't think it is correct to use "prequel" as the opposite of "sequel" /smartass
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Planescape-torment-box.jpg


It's not a good cover, really.

Sorry to be a
clear.png
wally_the_prestigious_monocled_bird.gif
but it has many aspects to it that are industry no-nos. Yes, it shouts "I'm something different" to people who will be motivated to try something different, the core audience, but in terms of wider appeal it misses the mark in so many areas.

Something like this is so much better for a whole host of reasons:

81d51e85aefeb85e118a6fd9b853b7c1.jpg


Even something a bit more mundane like this would have been more relatable:

scars-do-not-appear-to-be-cause-of-death-shock-bad-request.jpg


The cover they went for is just too... in your face.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
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Messages
5,656
The cover isn't very representative of the game itself, but god damn, I can't imagine it being any other way.

If I was asked, the cover would showcase the Nameless One's back with the instructions.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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Or a zombie game~ I only played PST because at the time I was a total noob, my third or fourth attempted RPG I think, after FF7, F1, F2 and FF8.

My god the marketing effort of that game was atrocious.

Redoing it?

1. A poster of a low blood but passionated thief girl in bikini armor: This father-complex tomboy is attracted to that immortal zombie guy over there.
2. A poster of a prim and proper priestess but you just know she's a whore inside. And what do you know? She's the owner of a BROTHEL of Slaking Interlectual LUSTS, and a naturally born SLUT. This desperatedly-suppresed sex symbol is attracted to that immortal zombie guy over there. (image of the type Marilyn Monroe in glass surrounded by books)
3. A grinning flaming skull between two massive tits. You know the dirty words that you just have to keep inside? yeah, that flaming skull would say it all, most often during the times he's burrowed between a prostitute's breasts. He's the companion of that zombie guy over there.

The first two is to evoke horny curiousity among watchers, but the last should make them green eyed with envy. Crying tears of bloods should be fine.
 
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Andyman Messiah

Mr. Ed-ucated
Joined
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Messages
9,933
Location
Narnia
The first time I saw the cover I imagined the game to be about druggies and 90s slackers.
I thought it was about voodoo so I bought it immediately, because I was heavily into voodoo thanks to Gabriel Knight and Monkey Island.

I'm not gonna lie. I was disappointed at first.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
35,388
Location
Merida, again
To be honest, the original box art is not that weird considering most other games from those years. I mean, some of them had really crazy art. The 90s were just a weird and lovable decade :love:.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"BG sold well because of DnD license more than anything else."

Bullshit. This is a myth spammed by idiotic anti (OLD) BIO weenies. D&D games simply aren't as big sellers as some claim. The most successful D&D game sprior to BG 9the GB series) weren't even close to BG in terms of success. Heck, I cna't say 100% but even adding all their sales together they'd have a hard time beating BG1 + expansion. And, all of Interplay's D&D games prior to BG failed miserbaly hence why they begged a newbie developer to try their hand at D7D even getting them to change their game from an old fashion RTS to a RPG in the middle 9well earlY0 in developement. Also, even the D&D game susing BIO's engines (PST and IWD) didn't come close to the BGs. And, none of the D&D games that have come sense outside of BIo's own NWN has beaten BG sales (NWN2 was soemwhat successful but not att he level).

So, yeah, d7D made BG successful. TOTAL BULLSHIT.

Tell that to fukkin' POR2. SCL, or even TOEE. Not to mention all the other wannabe D&D games. LMAO

The onl;y other D&D game that had any real success was... you guessed it... BGDA ... basiclaly puiggybacking on the BG name. HOLY FUKK.

r u retartet?
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Maybe if PS:T had been released for Linux?
 

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