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Incline Warcraft Adventures Unreleased Beta - Actually got released!

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Could you explain what made the interface so good, since that's a matter of professional curiosity for me?

It's a variant of the LucasArts interface. Clicking on an item or environmental object will bring up a stylized sort of claw, with a list of options (basically, "Look", "Touch", "Taste/Eat" shown visually). It's sleek, easy to use and allows for a good level of interaction. It's not clunky like the LucasArts interface in MI was, nor is it overly complex like the Sierra Icon Bar; Nor does it take up half the screen like the later Sierra interface (KQ7, SQ6) or Westwood's interface. It's basically invisible until you click on something. It's intuitive, easy to use, without getting in the way and allows potentially for generally the same level of interactivity as either the classic Sierra or LA interface. It's well designed. It's very reminiscent of the interface in Curse of Monkey Island, but stylistically I prefer it to that interface.

This is the interface:
416bb30f-0066-4af2-9a64-c24f62fc5598.jpg

7t7lL.jpg
 
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MRY

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Yeah, I think verb coins are a pretty good approach. I think a contextual verb coin would perhaps be best.
 

jfrisby

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I like that the esc key skips almost anything, for when you didn't properly change the save directory in the ini and have to replay it. Pretty standard verb coin (not my favorite), but the right-click to open the inventory bar feels decent (and manipulation of inventory items).
 

tuluse

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Korgoth of Barbaria

Isn't that basically the same thing as Full Throttle?

Yeah, I think verb coins are a pretty good approach. I think a contextual verb coin would perhaps be best.
Depends on the game, but the more designers limit potential interaction the more you're letting people just brute force puzzles.
 

felipepepe

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I haven't played this, but since felipepepe says it can be played all the way to the end and is merely missing a few sounds/animations, to met the absolute craziest thing here is that Blizzard couldn't figure out until the whole game was made that it was not a good game. (It seems like something similar happened with Ghost.) How does that happen? I mean, it's not like these are in some kind of novel framework like, say, KoDP where you can't tell if it's good until the thing can be played. For those who have played it, do you have any sense what the explanation would be?
To be more specific, this feels like a poor fan project. It clearly emulates LucasArts games, from the Full Throttle/Curse interface to the humor tone, lack of dead ends & deaths.

The problem is that it doesn't understand why those games were so good, and barely has any content. It's a small-minded clone. You progress very linearly, usually only having 3-4 rooms to interact with at a time - all lacking in content. It just feels poor and a waste of potential. I.e., Zul'jin's store:

iUvocwk.png


This is an immediate throwback to the store in MI2... but that was a key area, that had many valuable items and the puzzle was slowly buying them from the shopkeeper. In Warcraft, all this is just so you can give Zul'jin a shattered hand and get the big red magic book. That's ALL you do here. You never need to come back for anything else.

Other areas are even worse. Killing Deathwing is ridiculous. You're locked in a small area with 3 hotspots and 4 items in your inventory. You just do the obvious and presto, the evilest dragon to ever live dies in a quick cutscene. You don't even get to speak with him.

You just burn though the game like that. Althought there's a world map and you can backtrack at will, you only have to do it twice or so - which feels very obnoxious at stands out, since you never had to do it before. Otherwise, most areas you just have 1-2 hotspots and ONE puzzle to solve. It feels barren.. Some areas don't even play a role, which is crazy:

OVeo2lr.png


This is Grom Hellscream's cave. There's a speaking pseudo-dragon and all these items lying around, but they are all useless. You can beat the game without ever coming here! That's how underdeveloped and wasteful this is.

Also, the game starts very obvious, but the final 20% is truly bizarre, with very illogical puzzles. But since there are so few hotspots and items, you can brute force easily.

To me it feels like the game was made is several blocks... they made Thrall escaping (which was good), pat themselves in the back and went "now we just keep going". But instead of an epic adventure, they made a linear sequence of puzzles that can be burned thought in 2-3 hours, never feel connected and just throw Thrall from one story point to another.

BTW, you spoke of Broken Age's insane animation work, this might be something similar. There's a point where an orc is fighting a wendigo, it goes on and on and on with a loooong hand-drawn animation loop... and most characters have unique animations for every dialog line they say.

I wouldn't be surprised if they wasted most of their budget on stuff like that.
 
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BR4ZIL

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Could you explain what made the interface so good, since that's a matter of professional curiosity for me?

The interface is a almost exact copy of Full Throttle's

You have "Grab","Mouth","Examine" just like Ben from that game, the only exception is the inventory screen, which is MUCH better than Full Throttle, as you can see all your items in one go.

In this day & age, the game comes off as quite damn good for a point & click, since most of the games we have now are way below that level of quality.

On a sidenote, just like our hero, i wonder if Starcraft Ghost ever had a "working" version such as this one.
 
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The problem is that it doesn't understand why those games were so good, and barely has any content. It's a small-minded clone. You progress very linearly, usually only having 3-4 rooms to interact with at a time - all lacking in content. It just feels poor and a waste of potential. I.e., Zul'jin's store

This is an immediate throwback to the store in MI2... but that was a key area, that had many valuable items and the puzzle was slowly buying them from the shopkeeper. In Warcraft, all this is just so you can give Zul'jin a shattered hand and get the big red magic book. That's ALL you do here. You never need to come back for anything else.

Actually, when you consider it, for the two markets they were trying to tap - the market that had enjoyed previous Warcraft games, and the adventure market - it's a good compromise. A relatively easy, accessible adventure game. You or I as a hardcore adventure game fan might love say, having twenty hotspots on any given screen - but to a mainstream gamer in 1998, what would be the point? You or I might enjoy mind bending puzzles with moon logic - but those same elements are part of what helped turn-off mainstream gamers from the genre. It could've actually been more appealing on a mass scale and helped the genre more than harder adventures did or would.

What you or I think is good in adventure games, is also a lot of what makes them a niche, obscure genre now. Look at what the mainstream audience wants in an adventure game - Telltale - which removes even MORE of the traditional adventure game elements than this game does. Had this game been polished a little more and released, it might've created an accessible 2D adventure game genre which had mass appeal - without the genre devolving into the QTE clickfest it's become to stay alive.

Also, the game starts very obvious, but the final 20% is truly bizarre, with very illogical puzzles. But since there are so few hotspots and items, you can brute force easily.

That's part of why they cancelled it - the last part needed rewrites and it would've taken them a while to do.

I still contend that it might've sold enough to save traditional 2D adventures for a few more years.
 

MRY

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Regarding the Wacrraft Adventure's design -- the little bits I saw suffered significantly from the character/verbset dichotomy that I rant about all the time, i.e., that Thrall is supposed to be a warrior-orc par excellence but he does stuff like cower from a rat, fidget gadgets into place, and so on. Do they actually do the Full Throttle thing and give him a suitable verbset and my sample is just not indicative of the game as a whole, or did they in fact put a warrior-orc in a space-janitor role?

Wall of rather wonky and preachy text incoming.

Regarding contextual verb coins: AFAIK, they are not really done much outside of the interactive fiction context, but they've been cropping up a bit there. It's what I wanted for Cloudscape (our follow-up to Primordia), and since Vic has been dusting off his Cloudscape art, I've been thinking about it again.

I hear your concern tuluse, but I think it's mistaken in a couple ways. As an initial matter, brute force playing is a coping mechanism, not a preference. It's true that players today have a fairly low threshold for puzzles and hence hit that coping mechanism quickly, but basically brute force puzzling is an expression of the sentiment, "I cannot figure out how to express a meaningful way to interact with the interactive objects you have offered me." Eliciting that expression from the player is the designer's fault, not the player's. You have to meet people where they are, and draw them out (arguably the original root of the concept of "education"). A designer can elicit that reaction by concealing the interactive objects and failing to interest the player in uncovering their concealment, by failing to anticipate the ways in which the player would want to interact, or by failing to teach the player the ways in which he can interact.

By the way, when I say this is the designer's fault, let me introduce a corollary: designers who made hard puzzles and failed to "draw the player out" tried but failed at education; designers who made stupidly easy puzzles rejected the goal of education altogether, and they are obviously more morally culpable. (I don't mean to crow too loudly here, morality is capacious and this particular offense isn't a mortal one, but yet I can't help but think at the end of days when we are asked to account for what led people to give up on a hard work and hard thinking, at least some of the blame can be laid at those who failed to use entertainment to encourage hard work and hard thinking. Cf. PKD's "Wargame.")

Incidentally, from watching streams and Let's Plays of Primordia and reading every review/comment ever posted about it (I think?), I think of myself as having failed in the task, but at least we did try.

Anyway, back to contextual verb coins.

In Primordia we had two verbs ("do" and "look"), one of which ("look") had only a direct object while the other ("do") could potentially have an indirect object provide that you were "doing" something with an item in your inventory (e.g., "do lantern on shadow"). Most of WEG's catalog is at that level at this point, and I think it's pretty much the adventure game standard. Its roots are in BASS, I believe.

More or less every hotspot in Primordia responded to both of these modes of direct interaction with a unique response. In other words, every hotspot you right clicked on gave a description (i.e., responded to "look"), and every hotspot you left clicked on gave some reaction, which most of the time would cosmetic (e.g., "I can't reach that" or "I have no idea how to make that work."). While these were cosmetic, they were at least unique (I believe?) to the particular hospot. With items (i.e., with indirect objects) the rate was probably something more like 50/50, meaning half the time you interacted with a hotspot using an object (e.g., "do cable on nostril"), the response you got was either a true generic one ("How would that even work?") or an item-specific but indirect-object-generic one (e.g., "I don't want to burn that, or weld it, or cut it.").

When you look at older adventure games excluding Space Quest (in which the large verb bar basically existed to provide zanier and zanier responses), it seems like most verbs yielded generic responses even when they had only a direct object.

In any case, whether responses are generic or not, almost every response is cosmetic. So then the question is, are these cosmetic responses productive, meaning, do they, e.g., guide the player toward a non-cosmetic interaction, do they tell a really funny joke, do they develop a character or impart game lore, do they respond to extremely legitimate requests the player might make of the game (like shooting an adversary, even if the game won't let them actually fire the gun), etc.

I think not-so-humbly that I did a pretty good job of writing the responses in Primordia, but I'm not sure that the cosmetic responses were that productive. And I am especially sure that the cosmetic responses in many classic adventure games were not productive.

Which brings us to my idea of the contextual verb coin. The idea of the contextual verb coin is to offer only interactions that are productive. Not only interactions that are non-cosmetic, let alone only interactions that are successful (i.e., those that advance you in the game), but only ones that rise above the level of, "How would that even work?" or "I don't want to burn that." When it comes to direct-object verbs, this is solely an expansion of what the BASS/Primordia interface offers. Primordia/BASS have no way to distinguish between "talk to nice lady" and "pickpocket nice lady" -- they offer only "do something with nice lady." There are ways to play around with this (like having her pocket be a separate hotspot, or dividing a steering wheel into left and ride halves, etc.), but it can be limiting.

The place where I would see the contextual verb coin potentially limiting the player is with respect to inventory items because I've toyed with the idea that it would also limit the number of items you could use on a hotspot to those that provide productive responses. But since, in my view, every reasonable interaction should be available to the player, this would still allow a wide variety of interaction. It just wouldn't allow interactions like "do cable on pile of sand." Now, if you response is, "But what if the player wants to use the cable to dredge the sand?" then my reply is, "If you think that is a reasonable request, it should be available on a contextual verb coin. But then it must have a productive response. Because if a reasonable player wants to dredge the sand and the response is, 'How would that even work?' then you are driving him back, not drawing him forth."

Really the biggest danger of such an approach, I think, is the proliferation of verbs, not the reduction of them, so you would probably want to have a limited number of permissible verbs to keep things reasonable. But the verb coin would still probably get pretty big.

Anyway, rant is over.

[EDIT]

Actually, while the rant is over, the ramble is not because I realized I stopped about 80% of the way through my point.

The above argument seems to invite the question, "If the contextual verb coin offers all reasonable interactions, and if your threshold for reasonable interactions is fairly low, why not just stick to a traditional verb coin and offer all those interactions and leave in the possibility of non-productive interactions to dissuade brute force approaches and to eliminate players viewing interaction as a checklist?"

I think the answer is lies in the border cases: actions that aren't stupid, but aren't that good either, which -- if offered to the player -- would require a non-generic response in order to maintain the illusion of responsiveness in the game. The contextual verb coin allows the designer (and, in fact, to make it usable, requires the designer) to limit the available options to a smaller number of more meaningful interactions. Thus, rather than having to write some quip for "do cable on pile of sand" ("It's a fiber-optic cable, not a vacuum tube!" yuk yuk), you simply refuse to entertain that option at all.

This winnowing of interactions is the same thing that was accomplished by the move from parser to verb bar in the first place. In that sense, it is about limiting options, but it's about limiting them in a way that (IMHO) is much, much better than the fashionable approaches at the moment: limiting verbs, limiting inventory items, limiting hotspots, and limiting available locations. If you have enough interactive elements spread over a large enough area, I don't think the approach would feel like a choose-your-own-adventure, but rather like an experience where the game anticipated the reasonable actions you might undertake and invited some other actions as well.

Anyway, I think the odds of Cloudscape's proceeding or even my working on another adventure game are somewhere around one in ten, so I doubt any of this theory will be put to practice. But I don't think it's a bad theory.
 
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Regarding the Wacrraft Adventure's design -- the little bits I saw suffered significantly from the character/verbset dichotomy that I rant about all the time, i.e., that Thrall is supposed to be a warrior-orc par excellence but he does stuff like cower from a rat, fidget gadgets into place, and so on. Do they actually do the Full Throttle thing and give him a suitable verbset and my sample is just not indicative of the game as a whole, or did they in fact put a warrior-orc in a space-janitor role?

I'll get to the rest of the post later, but Thrall is the way he is because he was raised among humans, as a slave; He was raised by Blackmoore to be subservient and cowardly. He wasn't raised as an orc. Warcraft Adventures is basically the story of how he became Warrior-orc par excellence from being a human slave.
 

BR4ZIL

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As someone who played Primordia and didint finished it (due to other factors), i can say that the verb restriction you speak of kinda kills some of the entertaining part of figuring out how to do something. Its also the reason as to why many modern point & click feel kinda lame, of course it cant be a text adventure where you have a literal spreadsheet of avaiable verbs, but something along the "standard" of the Indiana Jones games or Monkey Island always felt good to me. Altho Full Throttle, Tex Murphy and the Broken Sword games have a way more limited verbs and still dont feel that restrictive and are among the best adventure games ever made.

But back to what you said, unless your going out of your way to design multiple "failed/wrong" combinations to a puzzle, removing items during a certain part (and only during that part) seems even more limiting, cause there is no possible way for you to predict all thats passing through the minds of all the playerbase, maybe someone thinks of a logical, but unconventional way to your proposed puzzle, only for him to find out that X item is missing in that scene (which is worst than a generic "Cant do that" response since its kinda immersion breaking). Or worst yet, made the puzzle way too easy by making it obvious with the avaiable items you have.

And regarding that, i have always loved games that removed items after they lost their relevance (they were used). One can even use "trash" items for purely cosmetic purposes.

As for spreading interactive elements across a large area, i invite you to play Cognition: Erica Reed if you havent already. It illustrates why that idea kinda creates a heavy sense of railroading. I think there must be a balance between all elements you mentioned (verbs,inventory,hotspots,etc) and among that balance there must be also some limitation. But IMO you shouldnt completely remove one element (generic/meaningless interactions) completely.

Most games do the "Do/Look/Talk/Pickup" combo, i suspect (and it surely feels like it) thats kinda the balance i am talking about when regarding these this interaction.

But then again, i have always loved choose-your-own-adventures, so maybe my input isnt what your looking for :P

Also, sorry for any stupid thing i have said, its 4am over here and i am kinda tired!

Cheers.
 
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Infinitron

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To be more specific, this feels like a poor fan project. It clearly emulates LucasArts games, from the Full Throttle/Curse interface to the humor tone, lack of dead ends & deaths.

The problem is that it doesn't understand why those games were so good, and barely has any content. It's a small-minded clone. You progress very linearly, usually only having 3-4 rooms to interact with at a time - all lacking in content.

Even compared to Full Throttle??
 

felipepepe

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Full Throttle still had moments like "find the three X to fix Ben's bike", or "get the three Y to jump over the bridge". Plus all the mini-games like riding the bike, fighting people and the destruction derby, all which did add to the game and overall sense of adventure.

Warcraft never does that. You never have more that one obvious objective, so everything is linear as fuck. You see a Goblin fixing a zeppelin - could be a great hook to finding multiple repair parts, just like in FT, but all he wants is for you to steal some gnome plans. The gnome workshop is the only other area you can go, and once you steal the plans the zeppelin is magically fixed. Onwards to the next area you go.
 

PlanHex

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Cobbett wrote about it this week in his RPS column:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/09/12/warcraft-lord-of-the-clans-review/
The RPG Scrollbars: Warcraft: Lord Of The Clans

By Richard Cobbett on September 12th, 2016 at 1:00 pm.

clans_0.jpg


Way back in the 90s, Blizzard infamously planned to expand its Warcraft strategy game universe by jumping into adventures. Ever since then, Warcraft: Lord Of The Clans has been one of the PC’s more famous ‘lost’ games – one of the few known to be almost complete at the point of cancellation rather than just existing as a tech demo and a few screenshots. It was canned in 1998, with Blizzard turning down a petition to finish the job from fans back in the day when not every single blasted action or inaction spawned those.


And then last week, the whole thing finally leaked online.


clans_1.jpg


Due to the leak thing, I was umming and aahing a bit over talking about this one. The simple fact though is that despite being a ‘lost’ game, we know more about Lord of the Clans than many that actually got released. It’s leaked before on a smaller scale, with a full longplay on YouTube (this version includes the cutscenes, to various points of completion). One of the Caverns of Time missions in World of Warcraft takes players back to its events, with future Horde Warchief Thrall escaping from Durnholde Castle. The whole story was also novelised in a book called, yes, Lord of the Clans.

clans_8.jpg


In short, while download links are no doubt even now being struck down faster than you can shout “For Doomhammer!”, and we’re not advocating downloading dodgy code, it’s not like we’re looking at a half-finished copy of Project Titan full of future game ideas here. It’s about as dangerous to Blizzard now as the Millennium Bug.

That said, just to be on the safe side, all pictures are not in fact from Lord of the Clans, but from a specially written in-house tool that randomly assigns colours to every pixel of a 640×480 board with the goal of ultimately creating every image that could possibly exist. Cthulhu’s presidential nomination. An apology from literally everyone involved in the Farscape videogame. A scandalous rendezvous between Donald Trump and Mayor McCheese. Maybe some things look like Lord of the Clans. But rest assure, any similarities are purely coincidental. And no animals were harmed in their making.

clans_2.jpg


As disappointing as Lord of the Clans’ cancellation was for fans, looking back it was definitely the right decision. The plot revolves around Thrall as an orphan brought up by the evil Lord Blackmoore – family motto, “Nil Morius Black” – as part of an honestly pretty silly plan to create the ultimate warrior and have him lead his army so that he can become King of all Azeroth. You know this guy’s probably a few scraps of Runethread short of a Netherweave bag when he comes across a dead orc mother cradling a tiny child, picks up and immediately starts laughing his ass off to the heavens. Basically, if you ever find yourself doing anything remotely like this, you = the baddy.

wow_laugh.gif


Anyway, as with most plans that begin with a psychopathic giggle, this goes wrong in several ways. First, the constant abuse teaches Thrall all about biding his time and being clever, which Blackmoore approves of instead of bulking him up to being a big tough orc who obeys orders and feels any sense of actual loyalty to his master. Second, after years and years of training, Thrall’s refusal to kill a fellow orc gets him thrown in the dungeon and scheduled for execution instead of a “Okay, so, we’ve got a bit more work here”. Third, in breaking free and exploring the world, Thrall becomes nothing short of a Horde leading powerhouse whose intelligence will forever make it hard to get another truly good grudge match going between them and the Alliance.

Even at the start though, the pieces don’t click. Lord of the Clans is an adventure that could have worked circa 1995/1996, but by its intended release date at the end of 1998? No. It doesn’t look right. It doesn’t feel right. It’s an adventure visibly designed by inexperienced hands, which Blizzard acknowledged at the time by hiring IF legend Steve Meretzky to polish and rewrite and design great big chunks of it. More than that though, it’s not a ‘Blizzard’ game. Blizzard’s greatest skill has always been taking other peoples’ concepts and polishing and refining them to a shine. World of Warcraft for instance wasn’t in any way a bolt out of the blue, but the best bits of diku muds in particular wrapped up and made approachable to the wider audience.

clans_7.jpg


Warcraft Adventures… it’s got nothing to add. It takes the interface from Full Throttle, but few of that game’s inspired thoughts on how to make a tough character into a different kind of adventurer than the usual inventory-packing geek. Thrall is bland, inappropriately quippy, and just generally stock. It comes from an RTS lineage, but can’t seem to find any way of integrating that into the mix in the way that, say, Quest For Glory merged RPG elements with its adventuring. There’s the occasional flourish, like using magic scrolls to solve puzzles, but not to any great extent – not even the extent of potion mixing in Kyrandia 2. There’s no ambition beyond ‘make it solid’. There’s no burning desire to improve the genre. It’s not a terrible adventure, but there’s no point in the 90s when it would have been a great one. It wants to be Full Throttle, but it’s closer to the likes of Dragonsphere, Inherit the Earth and Touche. Certainly Bill Roper was right when talking about its cancellation in 1998 that it was at least three years late and could only have diluted Blizzard’s already firm reputation for quality. Though it would have been interesting to see what the final version might have been.

That said, it’s definitely got its moments, including the hilarious sight of future World of Warcraft super-dragon Deathwing smoking a hookah, and Thrall defeating it in single-combat by cutting open a dead cow it’s about to swallow in one gulp, indeed being swallowed, and then trekking through his dragon guts with the help of a jetpack… yes, a jetpack… to cut off his flame. If only the WoW fight had been so much fun or the whole thing had been rooted in such satisfying physicality. What it does share with Full Throttle is that those bits are, by far, the most satisfying and fitting.

clans_4a.jpg


And on top of that, it’s strangely pretty, especially since the art was handled by Animation Magic. If you’ve never heard of them, suffice it to say that their animation portfolio in the 90s was nigh indistinguishable from Satan’s dream journal. I still can’t believe Blizzard of all companies gave them a shot on this project. Hell, I remember being convinced that at some point they’d found a genie and been given a choice between never having trouble getting work, and being able to draw. I shall let their work on games like King’s Quest VII, I.M. Meen and its sequel, and the infamous Legend of Zelda games speak for itself and settle comfortably into your nightmares.

To give full credit though, while you’re not going to mistake Lord of the Clans’ animation for Disney or Don Bluth at their best, it’s high quality stuff. Mostly. As leader of the Frostwolves, Thrall does look more like he’s skinned a particularly large cat. But let’s not quibble. By general 90s animation standards, never mind Animation Magic’s usual ‘stick a stylus in our sphincter and draw with our bottoms’ standard, this is a game with no expense spared on character animation and location art and background details, like the pungent breath of a glowing skull cave.

clans_9.jpg


How did the code finally get out? Unconfirmed, but as said, code has been floating around for a while. It’s clearly in development. Cutscenes have almost no synchronisation, loads of music and sound effects and other assets aren’t there. Some dialogue is performed by a speech synth. But, since nobody’s going to actually download and play it without knowing the story, it’s not as if the rough edges or occasional unfinished movie here and there casts any poor light on Blizzard. Honestly, the amount of polished stuff makes them look good for making the right decision and pulling the plug, but it’s still not even close to being an Old Shame.

Now though, it’s an interesting piece of history in a medium that’s often far too quick to throw it away. Things have changed a bit recently with many an old game showing up on the likes of GOG and Steam, but even then, many hits like No One Lives Forever are lost in limbo. After that, if a game slips off eBay or a couple of big hosting sites like 4shared go down, they’re likely gone. And that’s released games. For anything else, we’re lucky to have a few trailers or documents to remember them by and imagine what could have been. Wouldn’t it be awesome for instance for 3D Realms to dump all the aborted Duke Nukem Forever builds onto the net or on YouTube, just to see what could have been? There’s a million and one reasons why it would likely be legally difficult/impossible, but that doesn’t detract from the fact that it would be fascinating, and that those pesky problems are something to bemoan rather than accept.

clans_6.jpg


But, sadly, like most of these things it’s unlikely that Blizzard could leave Lord of the Clans in the wild in this form even if it wanted to – we should probably be grateful that the YouTube videos are still up, though even typing that, I can’t help but feel I might be dooming them to the doomiest of dooms. It’s a sliver of both their history, and the histories of both World of Warcraft as a place and one of the biggest games in the world, a chance to see how Blizzard approached a game so far out of their comfort zone and how it played into the development of their storytelling, and for Animation Magic, proof that they could actually draw. For all that and more, it’d be good to see as blind an eye as legally possible turned to its existence, rather than a seek and destroy mission to try and prevent any hint that the company might have been responsible for anything terrible. Except the current state of Hearthstone’s Priest class, obviously.

Anyway. That was the 90s. This is now.

Don’t suppose anyone’s still hanging onto a copy of Starcraft: Ghost by any chance?


This collection of tweets from Mark Kern that he linked was very interesting too: https://spacequesthistorian.com/2016/09/11/warcraft-adventures-leaked-designer-spills-beans/
 

hello friend

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I'm on an actual spaceship. No joke.
You have to meet people where they are, and draw them out (arguably the original root of the concept of "education"). A designer can elicit that reaction by concealing the interactive objects and failing to interest the player in uncovering their concealment, by failing to anticipate the ways in which the player would want to interact, or by failing to teach the player the ways in which he can interact.
This. These days it seems devs have generally given up on designing challenging puzzles altogether - easy games are such a chore to play - but many of the frustrating puzzles of Back Then were frustrating because there was no train of thought that would lead you to the solution. Wtfwacky solutions can be perfect reasonable, even desirable, as long as they are consistent with the game's internal logic. If the zaniness of the setting, and the rules implicit to it, you can't think outside the box because you have no idea where the box is, what it looks like, or if the box isn't in fact a kettle. In More Recent Times rhyme and reason tend to be missing altogether, there is no failure of communication because this world doesn't operate on logic; there is no integration of the puzzles and the setting.

I'm being too negative. I see that.

Re interfaces I think the best would be something simple, like left mouse button executing a context-dependent default action (like in Monkey Island) - not necessarily the action you need to take to solve a puzzle, but a natural action to take. Right mouse button bring up verb menu. NOT a pop-up window, but a menu that disappears if the cursor is moved from the object being interacted with or any mouse button is clicked. Middle-click is good for inventory. Large grid is better than scrollable bar or (shudder) tabbed lists. Depending on the game, maybe option to filter by order picked up or area found, item type. Most adventure games won't need this. actions should be fully rebindable to any key or mouse button.

Having some verb variety is good. Very limited verb list is a cancer.
 

MRY

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As someone who played Primordia and didint finished it (due to other factors), i can say that the verb restriction you speak of kinda kills some of the entertaining part of figuring out how to do something.
Maybe, but I'm not sure. For example, the classic Sierra verb bar (excepting Space Quest) is Walk/Look/Do/Talk/Item. Because "walk" is subsumed by the "do" button in the left/right click BASS/Primordia approach, the only thing that Sierra adds is a separation between Do and Talk. But that separation only has any bearing on living beings. Games like Dragonsphere majorly fragment "do," but I'm curious whether it matters: Take is standard, Push/Pull/Open/Close seem extremely limited, Give/Put are basically the standard "do item with target," etc. What Dragonsphere does add is item-specific verbs, which is more like what I'm talking about.

Obviously the best case for a broad verb variety is Monkey Island 2, and there is really no rivaling that game, but we mortals have to make due with the limited abilities we have, and I think aspiring to doing the MI2 interface well may be a fool's errand for ordinary designers.

But back to what you said, unless your going out of your way to design multiple "failed/wrong" combinations to a puzzle, removing items during a certain part (and only during that part) seems even more limiting, cause there is no possible way for you to predict all thats passing through the minds of all the playerbase, maybe someone thinks of a logical, but unconventional way to your proposed puzzle, only for him to find out that X item is missing in that scene (which is worst than a generic "Cant do that" response since its kinda immersion breaking). Or worst yet, made the puzzle way too easy by making it obvious with the avaiable items you have.

Well, there is a way, which is testing. It's true that you can't predict everything, but if there is some action that 20+ testers never attempt, it's probably not so fundamentally reasonable that its omission is an outrage.

Again, it's important to recognize that what we're talking about is not the difference between a simulationist game where every item can be used to natural effect on every interactive hotspot versus a scripted game where only some items can be used to any effect on interactive hotspots. Both approaches we're discussing are the latter, scripted approach. It's a difference of presentation, not content. This is probably a de gustibus thing, but to me having an reasonable choice met with "Can't do that" is worse, not better, than never being given that choice at all. Neither is good, but the refusal to acknowledge the option strikes me as less bad because it doesn't present the world as a simulation only to have the simulation routinely fail.

The "made obvious" point is more persuasive, and it's my primary worry with this approach because exactly the problem you identify wrecks dialogue-based puzzles (and is why Resonance's STM system, though ultimately kind of unpleasant to play with, was such a brilliant innovation, making it a particular outrage that Resonance has more or less fallen off the radar among WEG's titles). Cloudscape was envisioned as something a bit more QFG-like -- not in terms of being an RPG, but in terms of being large and open -- and I think that would mitigate against this problem.

And regarding that, i have always loved games that removed items after they lost their relevance (they were used). One can even use "trash" items for purely cosmetic purposes.

This is standard everywhere, but I think the best practice is to retain items* and make them useful again and again. (* Or, more precisely, to retain "tools." You split the way you think about items between, on the one hand, tools and, on the other, parts/trade goods/consumables. It's fine for the latter to come and go, but the former should be charismatic and companion-like -- Indie's whip, Bobbin's distaff, Arthur's Excalibur, Batman's batarangs, etc.)

As for spreading interactive elements across a large area, i invite you to play Cognition: Erica Reed if you havent already. It illustrates why that idea kinda creates a heavy sense of railroading. I think there must be a balance between all elements you mentioned (verbs,inventory,hotspots,etc) and among that balance there must be also some limitation. But IMO you shouldnt completely remove one element (generic/meaningless interactions) completely.
Cognition lokos horrible. I don't even have time to play good games, certainly not enough to play bad games. :D

Most games do the "Do/Look/Talk/Pickup" combo, i suspect (and it surely feels like it) thats kinda the balance i am talking about when regarding these this interaction.
It depends what you mean by "most." During the golden age of adventure games, this was true, but for adventure games released since then, the two button Do/Look (with "Do" subsuming take/use/talk/walk) interface seems to predominate, no?

Re interfaces I think the best would be something simple, like left mouse button executing a context-dependent default action (like in Monkey Island) - not necessarily the action you need to take to solve a puzzle, but a natural action to take. Right mouse button bring up verb menu.[/quote[
I pretty strongly feel that look/interact should be bifurcated into right/left buttons. Probably I would do something like left click is smart-do, right is look, and left click-and-hold is verb bar. I don't know that you need a middle button for mouse
 

BR4ZIL

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Your argument for not acknowledging an option is exactly my argument in favour for a "Cant do that" reponse. With a "This wont work" reply, i try to imagine a reason why it woulnt work (and many times its a logical conclusion).

With the option outright removed, my mind will promtly wonder why the game isnt giving me the option. One would have to cleverly take away those options with in-game explanation.

I suppose its akin to playing PnP RPG and the DM just has to resort to outright denying the players something because he hasnt planned on it, instead of giving a (possibly lame/generic) in-game response. I prefer the in-game denial versus the meta-denial :P

As for removing items after using them, me and my girlfriend went through quite alot of games together (Erica Reed, Darkness Within,AR-K, Memento Mori 1 & 2, the latest Broken Sword and Secret Files series), all of them are pretty much "get stuck with a inventory full of useless items" for the vast majority of the game. I love games that, the further your at the end of the game/chapter, the fewer items your inventory has.

Cognition may look horrible, buts it not THAT bad (i didint liked it because it was waaaaaay too grimdark, my gf loved it), its essentially like the movie Seven, except it has some psychic stuff in it. Its also good to note that it implements this idea of yours of restricting items to the relevant part of a puzzle.

As for the Do/Look, indeed modern games almost exclusively do those 2.

This kinda creates the (now) universal "go-to" plan when playing these modern games, which is to "look" into everything in a scene, then promtly "do" everything in a scene. The more i play, the more find that "mechanic" boring. If you have more verb variation you will have to think about what to do instead of just going through it in a mechanical manner. Its way too simple to the point where the "do" part results in things that i had not even thought of it yet being done (like using a box thats on the scene to push down a door instead of using it to climb to a window or vice versa)

Alot of "useless" verbs that got merged into the "do" verb could (and used to) be used to provide additonal info/depth to items/scenario.

This. These days it seems devs have generally given up on designing challenging puzzles altogether - easy games are such a chore to play - but many of the frustrating puzzles of Back Then were frustrating because there was no train of thought that would lead you to the solution. Wtfwacky solutions can be perfect reasonable, even desirable, as long as they are consistent with the game's internal logic. If the zaniness of the setting, and the rules implicit to it, you can't think outside the box because you have no idea where the box is, what it looks like, or if the box isn't in fact a kettle. In More Recent Times rhyme and reason tend to be missing altogether, there is no failure of communication because this world doesn't operate on logic; there is no integration of the puzzles and the setting.

I'm being too negative. I see that.

Re interfaces I think the best would be something simple, like left mouse button executing a context-dependent default action (like in Monkey Island) - not necessarily the action you need to take to solve a puzzle, but a natural action to take. Right mouse button bring up verb menu. NOT a pop-up window, but a menu that disappears if the cursor is moved from the object being interacted with or any mouse button is clicked. Middle-click is good for inventory. Large grid is better than scrollable bar or (shudder) tabbed lists. Depending on the game, maybe option to filter by order picked up or area found, item type. Most adventure games won't need this. actions should be fully rebindable to any key or mouse button.

Having some verb variety is good. Very limited verb list is a cancer.

Agree 100%! To me it felt it wasnt the many verbs that made puzzles hard or the game grinding to a halt, it was the sheer zanyness of the whole thing.

Anyone played Lost Island? i remember at one point you had to prove your accuracy by shooting a fly with a cannonball.

Mind you, that game was completely serious in its theme at any no point it gave you a clue that you even HAD to shoot a fly with a cannonball. Furthermore, it was a puzzle that involved 3 separate screens (the cannon was on one screen, the fly was 4 screens away, + the stuff you needed for the cannon were elsewhere).

Another example from that game, at one point you are inside a ventilation shaft, you have to break down a panel to exit. Do you use the "pull" verb? No. Do you use the "push" verb? No. Do you use any of your logical items to break it down (like a wrench or even a strong cable)? No.

The solution was to use an item you were using, the make-up shoes soles (because the ventilation shaft was too hot), that item now magically "simbolized" your feet (and there was no kick verb), which you use to kick down the panel.


That kind of sillyness is what made older games seem impossible, it wasnt the many verbs, it was the way they were (or werent) used in a logical manner.
 
Last edited:

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Its also good to note that it implements this idea of yours of restricting items to the relevant part of a puzzle.
That isn't my idea, unless you mean that you can only use items that actually solve/advance the puzzle. As I said above, my idea is that it restricts to items that have some productive interaction in the sense of an intelligent response, a clue, an effect, etc.

This kinda creates the (now) universal "go-to" plan when playing these modern games, which is to "look" into everything in a scene, then promtly "do" everything in a scene. The more i play, the more find that "mechanic" boring. If you have more verb variation you will have to think about what to do instead of just going through it in a mechanical manner. Its way too simple to the point where the "do" part results in things that i had not even thought of it yet being done (like using a box thats on the scene to push down a door instead of using it to climb to a window or vice versa)
I think you're too rosy-eyed about older games and too pessimistic about modern ones. The Sierra verb list had the exact same effect: you look at everything, do everything, and talk to everyone. The only reason players wouldn't do that had nothing to do with the addition of an extra (usually useless) talk verb, but because (1) the hotspots weren't labeled (meaning that players actually were often just clicking on everything) and (2) doing something dumb, like "using" a snake hole, could get you killed, and saving was enough of a chore that people would be at least a little bit thoughtful. I agree that Lucas games were better than Sierra in that they were much more spam-resistant, though in practice you could often do exactly the same two-step by looking and then default-verbing everything on the screen.

Again, the real question to me is not whether the game permits a player to interact with it this way, but how you can get the player to interact with the game better. One way is with a stick (like Sierra's deaths), another way is with smokescreen (like Lucas's huge array of typically useless verbs), and a third way is making the puzzles coherent enough and thematic enough that the player isn't like to spam because he can think though a puzzle more efficiently than he can spam through it.
 

BR4ZIL

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Nice job guys :)


Haha! :P

Despite negative critics here and on othersites, i really cant help but think Warcraft Adventures is still better than many modern (and old) games that did get a release. I havent finished it yet, but if i ever had to replay a point & click game, Warcraft would be ontop of pretty much the entire Telltale library (including Sam & Max, yes), just to name one.
 

BR4ZIL

Novice
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Messages
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Its also good to note that it implements this idea of yours of restricting items to the relevant part of a puzzle.
That isn't my idea, unless you mean that you can only use items that actually solve/advance the puzzle. As I said above, my idea is that it restricts to items that have some productive interaction in the sense of an intelligent response, a clue, an effect, etc.

This kinda creates the (now) universal "go-to" plan when playing these modern games, which is to "look" into everything in a scene, then promtly "do" everything in a scene. The more i play, the more find that "mechanic" boring. If you have more verb variation you will have to think about what to do instead of just going through it in a mechanical manner. Its way too simple to the point where the "do" part results in things that i had not even thought of it yet being done (like using a box thats on the scene to push down a door instead of using it to climb to a window or vice versa)
I think you're too rosy-eyed about older games and too pessimistic about modern ones. The Sierra verb list had the exact same effect: you look at everything, do everything, and talk to everyone. The only reason players wouldn't do that had nothing to do with the addition of an extra (usually useless) talk verb, but because (1) the hotspots weren't labeled (meaning that players actually were often just clicking on everything) and (2) doing something dumb, like "using" a snake hole, could get you killed, and saving was enough of a chore that people would be at least a little bit thoughtful. I agree that Lucas games were better than Sierra in that they were much more spam-resistant, though in practice you could often do exactly the same two-step by looking and then default-verbing everything on the screen.

Again, the real question to me is not whether the game permits a player to interact with it this way, but how you can get the player to interact with the game better. One way is with a stick (like Sierra's deaths), another way is with smokescreen (like Lucas's huge array of typically useless verbs), and a third way is making the puzzles coherent enough and thematic enough that the player isn't like to spam because he can think though a puzzle more efficiently than he can spam through it.

Aye, i meant the idea you described, the game restricts items here and there (example: your at the crime scene puzzle, the gift package you picked up to gift another character cant be used there at all (its greyed out)).

As for rosed-glasses... well, just to give you perspective, i was born in 1995, i only really grasped the english language when i was around 11 to 13 years old (and thus was "fit" to play story-based games). Trust me when i say this is no nostalgia speaking, i played Fate of Atlantis for the first time 3 years ago and it was just as good as everyone told me it was. Same with alot of game classics (and not just point & click games).

I also never really played many Sierra games (Dont kill me!). The ones i did was Space Quest 1 (the remake/VGA) and freely avaiable King's Quest games. I actually bought both collections but never had the time to play all of them.

I cant claim nostalgia on alot classics, even if i wanted to, except maybe... with Freddi Fish and the Missing Kelps, i played that game with mom translating the stuff for me on the fly :P
 

BR4ZIL

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:D Gave some interviews for russian sites and french newspaper Le Monde

Haha! Use your newfound celebrity status to reach out and try to find someone with Starcraft: Ghosts or the already mentioned Metal Lords/Mech Lords game!

:D
 

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