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KickStarter War for the Overworld - Dungeon Keeper clone

Deakul

Augur
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
417
Location
Taxachusetts
What a fucking disaster.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,456
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I played a 15 minute skirmish and it was great. Not touching it again for another month, though, given how badly you lot are laying into it. I assume some game-ruining bugs are just hiding around the corner.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,839
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
I played a 15 minute skirmish and it was great. Not touching it again for another month, though, given how badly you lot are laying into it. I assume some game-ruining bugs are just hiding around the corner.
Campaign is currently pretty broken. Saving and loading breaks a lot of missions apparently.
 

zerotol

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
3,602
Location
BE
I am aching for this game, but i will wait for it to be a bit more polished.

How do you guys rate the hotfixing at the moment, noticable improvements already?
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,506
I played a 15 minute skirmish and it was great. Not touching it again for another month, though, given how badly you lot are laying into it. I assume some game-ruining bugs are just hiding around the corner.
Campaign is currently pretty broken. Saving and loading breaks a lot of missions apparently.
Saving and loading is extremely difficult to program. Considering this stuff isn't even taught on universities, and even these who received normal SW eng university education are supposed to learn this stuff themselves, it's no strange that games from new/these who could get away with it because of fame studios (especially Ukrainian and Russian) are full of save related dangerous bugs.

Strangely ToE has also one of really bad bugs that would be very unlikely to happen in game from me, or from some other competent developer raised in garage games era.

Well, git gut before you apply for kickstarter, there is no shame in writing an noncommercial freeware first, then doing larger projects. Poor creativity in programming skill, lack of university level of self-education, these things doesn't help anyone.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,839
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
I played a 15 minute skirmish and it was great. Not touching it again for another month, though, given how badly you lot are laying into it. I assume some game-ruining bugs are just hiding around the corner.
Campaign is currently pretty broken. Saving and loading breaks a lot of missions apparently.
Saving and loading is extremely difficult to program. Considering this stuff isn't even taught on universities, and even these who received normal SW eng university education are supposed to learn this stuff themselves, it's no strange that games from new/these who could get away with it because of fame studios (especially Ukrainian and Russian) are full of save related dangerous bugs.

Strangely ToE has also one of really bad bugs that would be very unlikely to happen in game from me, or from some other competent developer raised in garage games era.

Well, git gut before you apply for kickstarter, there is no shame in writing an noncommercial freeware first, then doing larger projects. Poor creativity in programming skill, lack of university level of self-education, these things doesn't help anyone.
I dunno.

I'm sure saving efficiently is hard, but even in the basic programming courses I have taken, there was a requirement that you figure out how to save and load stuff to text files.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,506
There is problem how to reconstruct efficiently game model, and how to avoid breaking save game compatibility between versions. Dumping RAM, or serialization, is straightforward, but it's not what's needed.

(BTW Why would anyone sane bother with storing stuff as text file? Normally it's compressed binary, and protection against data loss on HD/RAM corruption.)
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,839
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
There is problem how to reconstruct efficiently game model, and how to avoid breaking save game compatibility between versions. Dumping RAM, or serialization, is straightforward, but it's not what's needed.

(BTW Why would anyone sane bother with storing stuff as text file? Normally it's compressed binary, and protection against data loss on HD/RAM corruption.)
I assume we did text file only because its the easiest and most intuitive, and very easy to check for errors since its human readable.

But yes, of course you would never do it in a serious project.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
So it's basically still in early access?
Oh well, it's gonna be -75% off sooner or later.
It's more about this, imo. Now that it's in 'release' state they can start selling it at larger discounts without people calling them out on pre-release fire sales. Anyone who wanted to buy it at list price or small discount has already done so. They obviously need more revenue.
 

Khorne

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
238
Strategy in 'unity' lol. GL optimizing that, it would probably leak less memory if rewritten entirely in flash.
Judging by the demo, it could use some texture optimization and data compression seems like a cpu overkill.
So I expect this will be dealt with, however, I sincerely doubt that anything can be done with the engine in its current state.
It's not the game assets that eat so much resources, it's the bad engine code and all the emulation it does under the hood.
I think the devs are probably testing it on i7 with 32G of RAM so they don't even notice the leak.
They just inflate the requirements to make up for it, regardless of the fact that the game would run on 2G RAM with a proper engine.
Look at DK1 and how it rendered hundreds of units on huge maps with no fps drop whatsoever on 386 hardware in DOS.
Also look at modern strategy games which render hundreds of units on huge maps with no fps drop, like civ, starcraft and homeworld.
They all pack proper engines, and unity is not capable enough to deal with so many units at the same time.
This is a reason why I think this, otherwise very nice project, was doomed to failure from the very start, and that is unfortunate.
 

Makabb

Arcane
Shitposter Bethestard
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
11,753
Strategy in 'unity' lol. GL optimizing that, it would probably leak less memory if rewritten entirely in flash.
Judging by the demo, it could use some texture optimization and data compression seems like a cpu overkill.
So I expect this will be dealt with, however, I sincerely doubt that anything can be done with the engine in its current state.
It's not the game assets that eat so much resources, it's the bad engine code and all the emulation it does under the hood.
I think the devs are probably testing it on i7 with 32G of RAM so they don't even notice the leak.
They just inflate the requirements to make up for it, regardless of the fact that the game would run on 2G RAM with a proper engine.
Look at DK1 and how it rendered hundreds of units on huge maps with no fps drop whatsoever on 386 hardware in DOS.
Also look at modern strategy games which render hundreds of units on huge maps with no fps drop, like civ, starcraft and homeworld.
They all pack proper engines, and unity is not capable enough to deal with so many units at the same time.
This is a reason why I think this, otherwise very nice project, was doomed to failure from the very start, and that is unfortunate.


because in the dos era and early windows 95/98 there were actual programmers who knew what they are doing as compared to todays modders who think they can make full fledge games.
 

Astral Rag

Arcane
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
7,771
Look at DK1 and how it rendered hundreds of units on huge maps with no fps drop whatsoever on 386 hardware in DOS.
How much crack did you smoke before typing that? DK1 runs on a modified Magic Carpet engine which is an impressive but also a very demanding engine. DK1 is "playable" on a fast 486 but for SVGA and smooth gameplay you need at least a Pentium 120 with 16MB of RAM.

I do agree with the gist of your comment, Unity is an abomination it's a miracle Skylines runs as well as it does.
 
Last edited:

Khorne

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
238
How much crack did you smoke before typing that? DK1 runs on a modified Magic Carpet engine which is an impressive but also a very demanding engine. DK1 is "playable" on a fast 486 but for SVGA and smooth gameplay you need at least a Pentium 120 with 16MB of RAM.

I do agree with the gist of your comment, Unity is an abomination it's a miracle Skylines runs as well as it does.

Got me there, could've sworn I had it running on 386 box, but I guess it was probably one of the newer models.
Can't remember which specs because it was more than a decade ago and I did build about a dozen x86 machines back then.
About Skylines, I can't confirm anything because I have not played.
From what I can tell the sim is a very different scenario because it basically just diplays a set of textures and animations.
They are all predefined in a sim, while a strategy game needs pathfinding and unit decision making on the fly.
So naturally, more units means more calculations at the same time, and that is not something a mobile game engine can handle very well.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
From what I can tell the sim is a very different scenario because it basically just diplays a set of textures and animations.
They are all predefined in a sim, while a strategy game needs pathfinding and unit decision making on the fly.
So naturally, more units means more calculations at the same time, and that is not something a mobile game engine can handle very well.

I believe most of the speed problems in unoptimized Unity games are related to loading resources from memory (including graphical resources). Back-end calculations shouldn't be much of a factor.
 

Khorne

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
238
I believe most of the speed problems in unoptimized Unity games are related to loading resources from memory (including graphical resources). Back-end calculations shouldn't be much of a factor.
My point is that in a sim you can get away with having zero pathfinding and decision making.
Concept of unit just isn't the same as in strategy game.
Arguably, this is a dungeon sim, however a unit must decide things, rather than just animate.
Imp must path around corners that are built by the player and decide when to fortify, idle or move.
Each unit has a queue of things it must do, and with hundreds of units it will add up.
That's where I think the bottleneck is, on top af all the resources in memory, it will make decisions for each unit.
If one gets stuck in a loop, i.e. 'fight or payday' it will leak until the point where it starts using swap.
That is an overkill for both cpu and the disk, although it doesn't make any difference on ssd which is basically just memory.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,406
Location
Djibouti
Can someone chime in in this thread once the game becomes fully patched and playable? I'd rather not suffer through supposedly bad UIs and shit, and I wanna play this a lot.
 

Havoc

Cheerful Magician
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
5,520
Location
Poland
Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath
Still not playable. 4 minions got stuck in enemy heart and lagged the SHIT of my pc. Yes. Pathfinding made me "Fuck... I'll wait for more patches."
 

Kaldurenik

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
895
Divinity: Original Sin
This is Dungeon Keeper and its fun, however it have so many issues that i don't even know where to start.

Should you buy this if you enjoy Dungeon Keeper? Yes.
Should you buy it now? No... Wait atleast 3-4 weeks and then you can ask in this thread again to see if they have fixed the worst bugs and issues.

Like memory leak, minions ignoring your commands (reloading fixes this problem), load issues where the map is "reset" for the enemy, crashes at loading screens at times.
These are the big problems right now. Then we have AI problems, graphic issues, sound issues... Well when i think about it i dont think there is a single part of this game that dont have a problem of some kind at this time ;).
 

zerotol

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
3,602
Location
BE
So any updates on the patching progress? Worth buying now? or still too early?
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,839
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Well, they fixed the most gameplay breaking bugs. Still no multiplayer. A lot of tooltips are still in debug mode.

But despite that, I had a lot of fun playing the game up until the final campaign map, which is simply too big, so my fps got in to the single digits as I started exploring it.

I expect that if you are waiting, you want to continue waiting for a while more, since the next patch aims to fix all tooltips, possession and add working multiplayer.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
So this got a fairly big following/build up on the Codex and now that it's out...


...


...yeah.

Did this crash and burn or what?
 

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