KickStarter Vigilantes: neo-noir, turn based tactical RPG

[Timeslip]

Alright, so I played about 2+ hours of it. That should be enough to form some solid first impressions.

The good:
+ Nice music. I really like the combat and base music. Solid vibes and really gives the impression that this isn't about law and order so much as it is about delivering street justice. There's only one track that I don't really like (the one with the woman singing in the background)
+ Good, clean UI. Can still be improved on with some keyboard shortcuts (e.g. switching members) and quality-of-life additions (e.g. selling from personal inventories rather than base inventory), but overall good layout.
+ The 'cityscape' (Geoscape equivalent) function is very promising. I really like the idea of gangs functioning as they would while you're trying to crush their operations. If you can deliver more simulationist mechanics here, including inter-faction conflict, it'd be a real winner.
+ I hope you go crazy with the base elements. I think because it's still in EA, it's going to be limited with what you can do as far as research and crafting are concerned, but it'd really be nice to have a non-linear track there like what X-COM did with laser vs plasma vs equipment.

Thanks for the feedback, udm - As it stands, we're planning to add quite a lot of content, polish, and enhance existing systems as the main objectives for EA. A more expansive crafting is currently number 2 on the priority list if we get enough support in EA to push feature development further. The current system is fine for simple upgrades, but would need to be rebuilt, rather than tweaked to offer more options.

The neutral:
= Combat is, hm... I'm lukewarm. It has things to like about, and vice versa, so let's start with what I didn't really like. I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of nuXCOM mechanics, and it was in spite of (and not because of) them that I enjoyed games like Shadowrun Returns. The cover in particular has that annoying vulnerable angle in which an enemy can always hit you no matter where you take cover. I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I can take screenshots if you'd like. Again, some people would overlook this, but I can't help but sperg over this kind of thing. May just be me

Maps are small, and are more akin to smaller skirmishes (e.g. 4v6) . I've no problem with this. I suppose since you're going with probabilistic to-hit mechanics, you'll want to implement more sub-systems that will mix things up a bit. As it stands, I'm in a lot of situations where I can win simply by taking cover, firing potshots, and taking the occasional flanking route. Lack of friendly fire is kind of a downer too. I can imagine how it will start to feel like a grind later on.

Now what I do like about combat is that it has some nice features that I've not seen before in other tactics games, like the ability to switch between lethal and non-lethal KOs. Would be cool to see these have more gameplay effect beyond a different ending.

Glad you guys went with multiple APs rather than sticking with 2-AP (which, to its credit, can be done correctly, but not the way nuXCOM did).

= Sound effects are okay. The pistol sounds like a BB gun, but the sounds of enemies getting shot are satisfying.

Would be of the view that TB tactics stands or falls on the basis of it's combat, so it will definitely get more attention. The cover is pretty similar to Xcom - enemies can hit you in full cover if they have LOS to an orthagonally adjacent tile. If you move in one tile further, they won't be able to hit (but neither will you). Friendly fire remains a possibility, and if you have any more suggestions, let me know.

Am planning to have different outcomes to certain dialogue encounters also, depending on your reputation, which is dependent on lethality. Right now, relatively few dialogue encounters are in place, but there will be more soon, and they will be more meaningful to the game.

Concerning sound, agree some of the SFX lack punch, will do another pass on it.

The bad:
- There's consistent lag when clicking on stuff, like it takes a noticeable while before the game responds to your mouse clicks.

Might come up with more thoughts when I play it some more. Overall, I think the foundation is there, so I'm really looking forward to future updates.

Are there any particular actions cause a noticeable delay or is it general - could you give me a couple of examples, so I can have a look at it?

 

[udm]

Sorry wasn't clear about the cover part. I'll try to draw a diagram and put it up later. But again, bear in mind this is just entirely my own quibble, and I guess most people wouldn't even find it an issue.

The bad:
- There's consistent lag when clicking on stuff, like it takes a noticeable while before the game responds to your mouse clicks.

Might come up with more thoughts when I play it some more. Overall, I think the foundation is there, so I'm really looking forward to future updates.

Are there any particular actions cause a noticeable delay or is it general - could you give me a couple of examples, so I can have a look at it?[/QUOTE]

Hm it's just in general while in the battlescape. Ordering my guys to move or shoot, there will be a split second delay before the animation plays to respond to my command. Then again my FPS sucks, so I may try lowering resolution to see if it makes things better.

 

[udm]

Nvm I'm an idiot. Ignore what I said about cover. I just tested it further and it invalidated my initial observations. I also tested the "lag" thing further. It seems like lowering resolution makes characters more responsive when you give them orders. However, there's definitely a delay with rotating cameras that happens regardless of FPS.

Question: do NPCs/PCs get any bonuses when they get flanked while in cover, since they can't crouch? (Edit: looks like they get attack bonus?) If not, what would you say about giving them at least the bonus from crouching while being hit from behind cover, since technically they are in a hunkered when behind cover? Also, what about having distant half-covers provide cumulative bonuses up to a certain amount (depending on how many there are between the target and the firer)?

Before I forget, I also like how you can control when Overwatch triggers! It's a nice feature and adds another layer to the initiative-based system. And huge thumbs up to the fact that you can choose the exact time of day when to engage in a mission. Does weather play a part in combat?

Edit: I find it interesting that accuracy falloff isn't a big thing in Vigilantes, so you can have a good chance of hitting even at pretty far ranges. Likely this is going to have the effect of making melee weapons much less useful than ranged weapons since gunners can outrun hitters while maintaining a good CTH, but it does feel more realistic.

Sorry if my post looks like one big mess. I'm alt-tabbing every now and then to make edits to this post.

 

[Timeslip]

I also tested the "lag" thing further. It seems like lowering resolution makes characters more responsive when you give them orders. However, there's definitely a delay with rotating cameras that happens regardless of FPS.

Question: do NPCs/PCs get any bonuses when they get flanked while in cover, since they can't crouch? If not, what would you say about giving them at least the bonus from crouching while being hit from behind cover, since technically they are in a hunkered when behind cover? Also, what about having distant half-covers provide cumulative bonuses up to a certain amount (depending on how many there are between the target and the firer)?

Before I forget, I also like how you can control when Overwatch triggers! It's a nice feature and adds another layer to the initiative-based system. And huge thumbs up to the fact that you can choose the exact time of day when to engage in a mission. Does weather play a part in combat?

If you are getting slowdown in night missions, have a look at turning off the volumetric spots and setting lighting to medium. The volumetric spots in particular are fairly demanding. Setting shadows to hard can help. The see through system is quite demanding too, but it's very useful for battle awareness. I will take a look at the camera rotation, should be easy enough to improve responsivity.

There was some uncertainty about whether the crouching bonus is applied - it should be, but I got really snowed under coming up to EA and never got a chance to look at it. If it isn't being applied in this version, it will be in 21 - it makes sense and is the intention. The distant cover is more difficult (moreso than friendly fire) but will keep it in mind as a possibility. (Edit, yes, you're right on the attack bonus, forgot about that!)

Weather and night don't play a part in combat... yet, but am very interested in ideas which required simple adjustments to existing gameplay elements to add depth, and this is definitely in this category. ushas had a neat suggestion for making ranged combat more difficult at night (making it a good time to target survivalists) so definitely open to other ideas along these lines

 

[udm]

Timeslip I edited my post above with a few more comments and ideas. Sorry for the messy posts! Yeah I'm pretty certain being behind cover always applies an accuracy bonus (tested it a few times with consistency), just not sure about the evasion bonus.

Off the top of my head, if we're going to go with skirmish-level battles, do consider adding interactive environmental objects too. Explosive barrels, oil puddles and such should provide appropriate motivations for PCs to move around rather than just popping moles behind cover.

 

[Timeslip]

Timeslip I edited my post above with a few more comments and ideas. Sorry for the messy posts! Yeah I'm pretty certain being behind cover always applies an accuracy bonus (tested it a few times with consistency), just not sure about the evasion bonus.

Off the top of my head, if we're going to go with skirmish-level battles, do consider adding interactive environmental objects too. Explosive barrels, oil puddles and such should provide appropriate motivations for PCs to move around rather than just popping moles behind cover.

Have pretty much had to rule out destructible environment, but a couple of interactive environment objects sounds workable - have added it to the list and will take a look at how time consuming it would be to add when things cool down.

 

[udm]

ushas had a neat suggestion for making ranged combat more difficult at night (making it a good time to target survivalists) so definitely open to other ideas along these lines

This is a really good idea. Might give melee more bang for its buck too, and if we're going with that, then rain should also affect ranged accuracy somehow (5% decrease?)

Have pretty much had to rule out destructible environment, but a couple of interactive environment objects sounds workable - have added it to the list and will take a look at how time consuming it would be to add when things cool down.

Funny you should mention destructible environment. I like it a lot in X-COM and Xenonauts, but I'm not really missing it here, mainly because battles are confrontational and are over quickly.

Anyway it's late and I'm off to bed, but just wanted to let you know that it's a great effort so far, and I'm really looking forward to seeing its continued development

 

[ushas]

Good points udm!
Glad the combat music isn't like the EPIC action theme we hear so often in movies and games.

+ The 'cityscape' (Geoscape equivalent) function is very promising. I really like the idea of gangs functioning as they would while you're trying to crush their operations. If you can deliver more simulationist mechanics here, including inter-faction conflict, it'd be a real winner.

This is really something that stands out. Gangs have budgets and are trying to grow stronger, making decisions.

Inter-faction conflict makes sense from their perspective - districts are the source of income, naturally would want to expand. Probably multiplies the complexity of simulation though. But if we take into account the reality of limited resources and how the game is set to be played (PC against all) - not sure what would be better to ask for: expanding simulation of gangs in relation to the PC or in relation to each other?

Question: do NPCs/PCs get any bonuses when they get flanked while in cover, since they can't crouch? If not, what would you say about giving them at least the bonus from crouching while being hit from behind cover, since technically they are in a hunkered when behind cover? Also, what about having distant half-covers provide cumulative bonuses up to a certain amount (depending on how many there are between the target and the firer)?

There was some uncertainty about whether the crouching bonus is applied - it should be, but I got really snowed under coming up to EA and never got a chance to look at it. If it isn't being applied in this version, it will be in 21 - it makes sense and is the intention. The distant cover is more difficult (moreso than friendly fire) but will keep it in mind as a possibility. (Edit, yes, you're right on the attack bonus, forgot about that!)

Had anything changed between v17 and now? I think you still have it in [Fix Required] category.

Was also bothered by distant half-cover having no effect. On the other hand, when not thinking too much about realism, rules can be anything (heh, I'm now recalling one openxcom mod adding an armour that makes you invisible in orthogonal directions, so enemies can only spot/attack diagonally...). This simple cover system, where half-cover is only applied when adjacent, has an advantage that you can easily take it all into account, looking around the map. In the end, I think it's more about how encounter design and all the systems build upon each other. Having suspicion, even if some semi-realistic changes are done (eg. determining how the objects in the way lower the target area thus chance to hit) - that isn't the hardest part. Making it worthwhile is.

ushas had a neat suggestion for making ranged combat more difficult at night (making it a good time to target survivalists) so definitely open to other ideas along these lines

This is a really good idea. Might give melee more bang for its buck too, and if we're going with that, then rain should also affect ranged accuracy somehow (5% decrease?)

Weather effect would be awesome!
As mentioned, we are aware of time and weather forecast before deciding to launch a mission. One could even say, as if the base interface was meant...

Anyway, basically there are two main factors - attack and defense. (agreed, ranged is having an upper hand)
Liking your idea. For example, what if the night makes accuracy falloff much steeper as well as cover/crouching giving greater defense bonuses. And as you said weather influences visibility too: overcast / rainy -> flat -5%/-10% accuracy decrease (plus flat cover/crouching defense increase?). Then it would function slightly differently than time of day, yet in similar spirit, so it all intensifies in combination. What do you think?

Spoiler

Meant to ask, where Reiker city sits on the globe?
Because it all starts in July. So in case the place is somewhere far on the north, it would mean that nights are short at the beginning, but as time goes by, longer and longer periods are in dark...

Well the game doesn't wait for us when we are slow to deal with enemies. Was thinking what it does to atmosphere and such, esp. if nights are harder.



Then there are also moon phases!:D

*ushas running as far away as possible*

 

[udm]

Regarding cover, what I'd do is have distant intervening cover offer cumulative bonus to evasion at diminishing rates if characters crouch near them (or are in cover nearby), so the first intervening cover offers 1/4 of actual cover's bonus and the second intervening cover offers 1/8 of actual cover's bonus. This should offer enough incentive for characters to keep moving even if they're not directly next to cover (and therefore encouraging flanking or closing in for melee). Got this idea (somewhat) from Classic Traveller.

 

[Timeslip]

Good points udm!
Glad the combat music isn't like the EPIC action theme we hear so often in movies and games.

+ The 'cityscape' (Geoscape equivalent) function is very promising. I really like the idea of gangs functioning as they would while you're trying to crush their operations. If you can deliver more simulationist mechanics here, including inter-faction conflict, it'd be a real winner.

This is really something that stands out. Gangs have budgets and are trying to grow stronger, making decisions.

Inter-faction conflict makes sense from their perspective - districts are the source of income, naturally would want to expand. Probably multiplies the complexity of simulation though. But if we take into account the reality of limited resources and how the game is set to be played (PC against all) - not sure what would be better to ask for: expanding simulation of gangs in relation to the PC or in relation to each other?

I agree that inter faction conflict would be interesting - it would be complex though from the perspective of balance (they could wear each other down to the point of no longer posing a challenge) and based on mechanical limitations (currently there can only be two forces engaged in combat). It would likely take weeks (at a minimum) and to be honest, the current simulation is quite basic, so would be inclined to flesh that out a bit more first and add some extra functionality (like allow them to recruit new lieutenants). The idea of expanding the simulation in relation to the PC is likely more promising - things like having gang lieutenants hunt down the player and perhaps use effectiveness metrics to determine which specialists are more effective vs the player, and creating more of this type when enemies level up.

Had anything changed between v17 and now? I think you still have it in [Fix Required] category.

No, haven't gotten to look at it. I've forgotten the exact details, but I'm not sure if the issue was with what is actually happening in the game, or the info that was being captured in debug.

This is a really good idea. Might give melee more bang for its buck too, and if we're going with that, then rain should also affect ranged accuracy somehow (5% decrease?)
Weather effect would be awesome!
As mentioned, we are aware of time and weather forecast before deciding to launch a mission. One could even say, as if the base interface was meant...

Anyway, basically there are two main factors - attack and defense. (agreed, ranged is having an upper hand)
Liking your idea. For example, what if the night makes accuracy falloff much steeper as well as cover/crouching giving greater defense bonuses. And as you said weather influences visibility too: overcast / rainy -> flat -5%/-10% accuracy decrease (plus flat cover/crouching defense increase?). Then it would function slightly differently than time of day, yet in similar spirit, so it all intensifies in combination. What do you think?

Sorry for butting in Like the idea too. One concern might be night + rain making ranged CTH very low for lower level characters... still there's an opportunity here.

 

[ushas]

Oh well, I guess it might read like was addressing only udm, using 'you' too thoughtlessly. Apologies.

One concern might be night + rain making ranged CTH very low for lower level characters...

(And that's where the far north with short nights in summer kicks in at the start... )
Yeah, a fuel for balancing headache, isn't it. Likely something else will pop up as suitable when things are being implemented.

Heh, I think raining at night is statistically even more probable.

Additionally, rain can have some other effects - like moving the threshold for jamming of guns, lower the number of turns things are on fire (tiles/people), etc.

The night is also more spooky (higher chance to flee?).

Edit: Forgot, there is also stormy weather.
What if it function like rainy, but with a twist: each time the lightning effect happens it puts one random tile on fire...

I agree that inter faction conflict would be interesting - it would be complex though from the perspective of balance (they could wear each other down to the point of no longer posing a challenge) and based on mechanical limitations (currently there can only be two forces engaged in combat). It would likely take weeks (at a minimum) and to be honest, the current simulation is quite basic, so would be inclined to flesh that out a bit more first and add some extra functionality (like allow them to recruit new lieutenants). The idea of expanding the simulation in relation to the PC is likely more promising - things like having gang lieutenants hunt down the player and perhaps use effectiveness metrics to determine which specialists are more effective vs the player, and creating more of this type when enemies level up.

Sounds good actually.

 

[ushas]

Let's play of Vigilantes beginning (barring intro) by tr1ppa:



Could be mistaken, but from what I've seen seems to me like a first try of soft boiled (aka easy difficulty).

 

[udm]

I'm extremely triggered by the player not using regular aimed shots at 5m away.

 

[Timeslip]

Well spotted Ushas! Seems to be a player after your own heart i.e. kill everyone, don't bother asking questions : )

 

[Timeslip]

I'm extremely triggered by the player not using regular aimed shots at 5m away.

 

[Timeslip]

Just found another one! Really like Nookrium, has a laid back style and covers lots of TBS, especially older stuff like X-Com

 

[Infinitron]

Timeslip When's the release time?

 

[Timeslip]

Timeslip When's the release time?

7 hours left!

 

[ushas]

Good luck!

Seems to be a player after your own heart i.e. kill everyone, don't bother asking questions : )

It's just matter of very low patience.

Sam: "Where is your boss?"
Gangster #1: "Please don't kill me! I'll tell everything. He is..." *sound of headshot*
Sam: "Too late."
Sam: *Turns to another one* "Where is your boss?"
Gangster #2: "He is..." *sound of headshot*
Sam: "Too late."
...
Sam: *Turns to the last one* "Where is your boss?"
Gangster #N: "I'm ..." *sound of headshot*
Sam: "Too la... Wait! Were you the boss!?"
*Happy ending slides: Sam shopping a new balaclava...*
Was also labeled as a save scummer when testing semi-randomized loot tables in another game.

I'm extremely triggered by the player not using regular aimed shots at 5m away.

If it helps anything, I think the player was extremely unaware of weapon modes.

 

[ushas]

Just found another one! Really like Nookrium, has a laid back style and covers lots of TBS, especially older stuff like X-Com

That's a nice preview.
And interesting channel, indeed. From looking at it, he seems to be also friends with Meridian (liked his openxcom LPs). Btw. have you noticed how he picked up a loaded gun of downed enemy instead of reloading his own?

 

[Timeslip]

Just found another one! Really like Nookrium, has a laid back style and covers lots of TBS, especially older stuff like X-Com

That's a nice preview.
And interesting channel, indeed. From looking at it, he seems to be also friends with Meridian (liked his openxcom LPs). Btw. have you noticed how he picked up a loaded gun of downed enemy instead of reloading his own?

Yeah saw that. Would never do it, as I roleplay a character with an incredible fear of germs.

 

[ushas]

Yeah saw that. Would never do it, as I roleplay a character with an incredible fear of germs.

In that case, I must inform you that your game features a lack of bathroom facility.

 

[Timeslip]

And we're live!

 

[Infinitron]

Ooh, cheap.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Bought it & downloading now.