Review Vault Dweller Does Dragon Age II

[Vault Dweller]

Let's try it again.

1) Any %miss system is designed with certain "how long should it take you to kill your opponents" expectations. The chance to miss plays a very important role as other than determining your combat prowess, it keeps the characters alive without inflating the HP (case in point, the AoD system where an avg character has about 35-40 hit points and can be killed in 3-4 hits) and makes a huge difference for characters who can hit the target more often.

2) A %glancing system is basically a %miss system where the chance aspect is either eliminated or, in case of DA2, kept but the miss value is increased for some idiotic reasons (deferred success? don't cry, little buddy, you didn't miss, you just didn't cause as much damage as you could have! good job!) from 0 to either a set value like in Gothic or % of full damage like in DA2, ranging from 3/4 to 1/10.

So, now, you have to add more to the HP just to compensate for that extra damage that's not really damage because you're actually missing. So now the formula for HP is "how long should it take you to kill your opponents, considering that you have X people doing Y damage per second just for the lulz". Hence the bloat.

The problem in DA2 is that the glancing damage is very high on casual (3/4) which adds a huge HP chunk, so when you play on Hard and do a lot less glancing damage, the bloat caused by the casual glancing damage remains. So, while it is the casual damage that's the main culprit here, it wouldn't have been an issue if the game was using a traditional %miss system.

So no matter what, you will always do at least 5 damage (a glance system). And here's G2's monster tables. Starts out in the dozens, goes up to the low-mid hundreds, a few special ones are 1000, the last one has 2000.

Now here's some Dragon Age HP values, which uses the honest-to-goodness miss system:

The bear in Lothering: 1369, Broodmother: 2032 (with each tentacle having 698), high dragon: 4085 Kolgrim (the Reaver fellow): 1240, Gaxkang: 2140, Arl Howe: 1220, Ser Cauthrien: 3415, Archdemon: 4180. Regular enemy values are in the low-mid hundreds.

Seems more like Bioware being Bioware. Or no?

No.

First, you have to multiply the Gothic numbers by 4 (a party of 4 hits harder than a party of 1). Second, make adjustment for the defense in Gothic games. Let's say you're trying to hit a regular Orc and your damage is 150 points. His health is 300 points, so theoretically you can kill him in 2 strikes. Right? Wrong. His defense against weapons is 150 points, so you're only doing 5 min points of damage. You'll have to hit that very hard hitting orc 60 fucking times. Orc elite - 450HP and 160 armor. 150 times until you can hit significantly harder than 160 points. Black troll - 1000 HP, 150 armor. Etc.

If you had a 4-men party in Gothic, orcs would have had 1200-1800 HP, trolls/dragons 4000, and that's not counting the insane DR.

 

[Sulimo]

Disclaimer: Posting this here because I couldn't be arsed to make a new DA2 thread just for this.

After finishing the game myself I went onto the bioboards myself to see what people thought about the godawful ending. I stumbled across this gem in a thread:

The story is about Hawke... about his rise from destitute Fereldan refugee, to nobility, to champion, to central character in the start of a world-changing conflict.

That's the one central constant throughout the game. DA2 is the story of his life after arising out of obscurity, that's what Varric is telling. There does not NEED to be a central plot beyond that. Even the Mage/Templar conflict only becomes the focus in Act 3, and there really is nothing wrong with that.

DA2 is a different kind of story. It's not about a grave threat arising in the land, it's not about the evil machinations of an enemy nation that must be defeated. It's about Hawke, his life, and what led him to do what he eventually did. And like most persons, Hawke's life included many topics and events. And that's what we play in DA2.

In short, DA2's story is not Lord of the Rings. It's Barry Lyndon. Does that make it worse? I say it does not.

Itkovian

Allow me to repeat that.

In short, DA2's story is not Lord of the Rings. It's Barry Lyndon.

In short, DA2's story is not Lord of the Rings. It's Barry Lyndon.

Are there any other Kubrick-aficionados out there who felt the need to gouge out their eyes after that particular statement?

 

[Drakron]

You know it would be nice if I was not forced to defend this crap as much as I have to do.

DA:O was the old and tired "save the world from the ancient evil" as DA2 was about the collapse of the Circle system.

Now that is a improvement as DA:O antagonist was pretty damn lame and there was not much of a conflict outside of Loghain going "Orlesians ...." and create those problems, the Darkspawn just hanged around until after Loghain was dealt with and then gone up stage and then it ended, it seems like they were just there because they needed a EPIC!.

Now the problem with DA2 was the form of the narrative, we are told right at the start we are the Champion of Kirkwall so its not as if we are making the climb to greatness, we are being told we are great and how we climbed those steps and that lessens the journey and on a interactive medium that a rather stupid move, Alpha Protocol made the same thing and it was also stupid when it did.

Also the comparative with Barry Lyndon is bad because of how it ended, DA2 does not end the same way.

If you are asking for more of DA:O trite like some retards are, they want Hawke to fight a Archdemon ... then I have a problem with that, DA:O plot was something terrible that was actually executed rather well as DA2 plot is the opposite, something good that was executed rather poorly.

 

[Volourn]

Nothing wrong with the ending. You beat the end boss, you get a quick recap, end of game... just like 100% of every other RPG ending ever.

What happened at end of DA1? Beat archdemon, get a recap, end of game.

R00fles!

What happened at end of FO? Finish the last encounter, get a recap, end of game.

LMFAO

 

[Drakron]

Nothing wrong with the ending. You beat the end boss, you get a quick recap, end of game... just like 100% of every other RPG ending ever.

What happened at end of DA1? Beat archdemon, get a recap, end of game.

What happened at start of DA2? you get a recap that is the game.

R00fles!

 

[Volourn]

Except, we knew how DA1 ended months before the game was released since BIO fklat out told us: You fight archdemon - the end, We only knew what happened during the coruse of DA2 story due to spoilers from reviewers or thieves.

hEY, GUYZ, WE HAVE ANA WESOME STORY AND WE'LL TELL YOU HOW IT ALL PLAYZ OUT PRIOR TO RLEASE. The same thing they did with ME. LMFAO

 

[Mastermind]

It's not a choice, it's a direct result of the glancing system. When damage is delivered per second, no matter how small, then you must have enough HP to be able to absorb it long enough to have a chance to win.

Bullshit. There are game who have no glancing or to hit system and still provide a challenge without HP bloat. The issue here is bioware's shitty design, not the glancing system. Guild Wars is a perfect example of such a game. Skill selection (you can only have 8 with you), skill combinations, and depending on the build, timing, are all far more important than DPS.

 

[Twinkle]

In short, DA2's story is not Lord of the Rings. It's Barry Lyndon.

 

[Sergiu64]

I'ld just like to add that Darklands had the best melee simulation system. Of course it required no player input other then choose attack mode and target enemy for each of the characters, but it was damn realistic: character and enemy melee skills affected how well they could hit each other and armor affected DR on penetration basis where every type of weapon could fully or partially penetrate only some armors.

I really want to see that system used again due to realism, but unfortunately it kinda unbalances classes if some classes are going to be restricted to certain types of armor.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly.php

Dragon Age 2 sales in the first 2 weeks:

XBOX - 521,405 (392k copies in the first week, 128k in the second) - proof that the xbox gamers are the dumbest
PS3 - 224,620 (163k first week, 61 second week)
PC - 181,832 (144k first week, 38k second)

927k overall; 700k first week, only 30% of that - 228k - the second week.

Kind of hard to sell more with reviews like these:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/03/d ... ii-review/

5/10 - "... Bioware has stripped away the veil of grandiose adventure, and what’s behind the curtain is a truly uninspired RPG. ... A clearly rushed production, no real sense of adventure, simple combat, too many menial tasks."

Dragon Age sold over 4 mil; 3 mil in the first 6 months. Mass Effect 2 sold over 2 mil in the first week (!). I've read somewhere (can't find the link) that Dragon Age 2 was expected to sell 2.5-3.25 mil copies in the first 6 months. Doesn't look like it's going to happen.

 

[Volourn]

1. That chart is not accurate and is made up numbers with no facts to abck them up.

2. DA sales also dropped huge in 2nd week as all games do.

3. DA2 is selling at about the same rate.

4. When all is said and done, DA2 will sell the typical BIO game: 2.5-3.5

5. You call xboxers dumb yet YOU bought the game, you dumbshit. And, you are PCers. LMFAO

6. This chart is bullshit so even if they claimed DA2 sold 1 copy or sold 10mil copies it would still be bullshit.


P.S. that wired review si funny since it bashes DA2 combat for the same things that it DA1 combat had which they liked: I paraphrase: 'you can unleash all your magic, talents, and potions all you want' because you will regen mana and helath after every battle. THAT IS THE SAME FUCKKKIN' THINK THAT OCCURED IN DA1. FFS

 

[Antihero]

At least VGChartz isn't a reliable source - shouldn't even count as a source. Something like they extrapolate based on the word of some guy who knows some guys who know some guys who work at GameStop.

Personally, I just hope they didn't sell enough by bilking people through preorders.

 

[Roguey]

Mass Effect 2 sold over 2 mil in the first week (!)

Just a minor correction here, that was 2 million shipped to stores in one week. This earnings call clearly states that it actually sold 1.6 million the quarter ending March 31, 2010. Which is great and successful and all, but not super-duper-amazing. And it didn't make their list of five titles that sold over 5 million in 2010 either.

 

[Drakron]

At least VGChartz isn't a reliable source.

Well yes and no, they make (or did made) bullshit but when numbers come out they go back and correct then.

Japanese sales are easy because Media Create releases the ranking and sales every week, North America is also somewhat easy because there is a monthly chart with numbers and Europe is next to impossible as numbers are rarely public released in a aggregated form, UK sales chart is know but I dont think actual numbers are, just position on the chart.

VGChartz is good when you want to the numbers after the game already completed its shelf life but during its first weeks ... no, NA sales numbers will be known in April when March sales are disclosed.

In the UK DA2 did top the chart and then fallen into 2nd place with Homefront taking the top, currently it fallen from 2nd to 13th place (Homefront on the 3rd place).

http://www.chart-track.co.uk/index.jsp? ... &ct=110015

That is the only "numbers" I have.

 

[J1M]

Unfortunately, no numbers are released by Valve for steam sales.

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

Okay, so, following this thread, Glancing blows apply to the Auto-Attack/White/Normal attacks, yes? Activated abilities are always hit?

What of poor consoletards, with their lack of Auto Attack, and having to mash BUTTON OF AWESOME, and getting Glancing blow. How demoralising would a miss be to them? Or has skinner box developed enough that they will repeatedly mash the AWESOME BUTTON no matter what.

Just a thought for the console tards, how a glancing vs miss system would affect them if every attack had to be initiated by the player.

Feels good to be a PC gamer.
Feels even better not having played DA2 or even DA:O yet capable of reading about it from those who have. Keep it up please.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Fighting system in DAO was tasctical and quite challenging when you didn't used the A-Mages bombs.I played as shield/champion/templar combo which was build for termination of those pesky mages. I died a lot becouse spirit damage ignored armour but every mage slain was couse for celebretion as triumph of humanity over warp. With three psykers however it was a cake walk even on nightmare but you can broke every game. There was just enough old bones from PC development in first part left to make the fight system sensible in second part they went full consoltarted. Unlike plot which was silly but still enjoyable Biofagotry in both. thus 6/10 for first part and 3/10 for second.

 

[Xor]

Any game can be made challenging by imposing artificial limits. What matters is the combat system as a whole, not some subset. It's especially ridiculous that an entire class (one of three, no less) makes combat trivial by itself.

 

[Volourn]

So.. has anyone soloed Bg series lately? R00fles!

 

[Hamster]

http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly.php

Dragon Age 2 sales in the first 2 weeks:

XBOX - 521,405 (392k copies in the first week, 128k in the second) - proof that the xbox gamers are the dumbest
PS3 - 224,620 (163k first week, 61 second week)
PC - 181,832 (144k first week, 38k second)

927k overall; 700k first week, only 30% of that - 228k - the second week.

I compiled vgchartz data in Excel:

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

1. That chart is not accurate and is made up numbers with no facts to abck them up.

2. DA sales also dropped huge in 2nd week as all games do.

3. DA2 is selling at about the same rate.

4. When all is said and done, DA2 will sell the typical BIO game: 2.5-3.5

5. You call xboxers dumb yet YOU bought the game, you dumbshit. And, you are PCers. LMFAO

6. This chart is bullshit so even if they claimed DA2 sold 1 copy or sold 10mil copies it would still be bullshit.


P.S. that wired review si funny since it bashes DA2 combat for the same things that it DA1 combat had which they liked: I paraphrase: 'you can unleash all your magic, talents, and potions all you want' because you will regen mana and helath after every battle. THAT IS THE SAME FUCKKKIN' THINK THAT OCCURED IN DA1. FFS

Origins relied on decent press and a looming holiday season where it was still one of the big shit RPGs. DA 2 has relatively bad press, no holidays and stiff competition on the horize. Expect the range to be 2-2.5

 

[Volourn]

So.. your argument against me is that it'll sell 2-2.5 as opposed to the 2.5-3.5... You rebel you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

An 8-month old interview:

http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/drago ... arget.html

10 million is the sales target BioWare is aiming to achieve with its future releases, studio co-founder Dr. Greg Zeschuk has told VideoGamer.com.

At the Develop conference in Brighton earlier this month Zeschuk spoke about BioWare's fortune to have had a few "minor" hits. But if the likes of Mass Effect and Dragon Age are considered minor, what's needed to be classed as a major one?

"Well, we need to sell 10 million units," said Zeschuk. "That's actually the new target, right? We do Top 10 games, our stuff is quite successful. I know Mass [Effect 2] is number eight so far this year, in North America.

"Sometimes I'm facetious when I say some of those things, knowing that we can sell a few million but seeing that someone else can sell 25 [million]. You're kinda like, 'Well, that's a hit!' We always joke that if we only do half as well as Blizzard on Star Wars: The Old Republic, we'll be quite satisfied."

 

[Volourn]

It sounds like it's more like 'pie in the sky', yeah it be really cool if we could sell at least 10mil units but none of our other games have so we are satisifed with the usual but we wanna keep pushing for me.

It's not like 'we need to sell 10mil copies or we die and game is a big phat failure lololol'
.

Hell, the EA big wigs claim that they 'only' need 500k subscribers to be 'profitable' for the MMO.

Sorry, but trying to use that quote as a 'DA2 needs to sell 10mil copies or it's f ailure' is pretty damn iobtusely retarted and intellectually dishonest.

The fact he quips that DA and ME are 'minor hits' says everything. L0LZ

 

[Elwro]

... if you manage to hit the target, and it's quite possible that you will miss. I don't see how that's a "glance" system.

Only if you mess up your timing and/or the opponent's AI decides to dodge/block/parry. That's quite different from a system where you swing the sword and some virtual dice roll in the background to determine whether or not the hit was successful.

The part which in other games is decided by a virtual dice roll in Gothic is decided by player's skill and the AI. It's still not a glance system in any way.