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Vault Dweller can you tell us the tale of your game?

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Not much to tell. When it comes to making games, the main expenses are fancy engines and software, office+hardware+taxes, and payroll. Indie developers can easily do without all three, which makes it possible to make decent games on 5-15k budget.
 

Charles-cgr

OlderBytes
Developer
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
984
Project: Eternity
I read a lot of people suggesting a KS. This is obviously not an option. KS is more than a funding option. It is also and sometimes especially a way to get the fanbase involed in the game design. KS donators expect their voices to be heard, and the devs to act on them.

They'll want what's already been asked here and there, like difficulty levels, that VD & co aren't willing to give in to.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing btw. I'm saying KS isn't a good fit here.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
For more reasons than one:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2584.msg89413.html#msg89413

Gareth:

"There's another factor you're forgetting. It's easier to sell people on a dream of a thing, than the thing itself. It's easier for Brian Fargo to sell you your idea of what Wasteland 2 could be, rather than what it will be. Because, while it's still a concept, it's easy to imagine it as the best possible version of what it could be.

When you give people a tangible product, then comes the criticism, and the possibility of disappointment. In fact, it's inevitable that some people will be disappointed, especially if they've hyped themselves into a frenzy beforehand. You're never going to make everyone happy with the finished product. But the dream...well, everyone has their own dream, and in that dream it looks so great...

I'm really excited for Dishonoured. But will it match my expectations, when I finally play it?

What will Wasteland 2 actually be like? Maybe the combat will be cludgy. Maybe the skill system will feel unbalanced. Maybe some people will find combat too hard, or not challenging enough. Maybe you won't like the writing. Maybe the text on the UI will be too small. Maybe you'll have video card issues that result in crashes to the desktop regularly. Maybe it just won't feel fun, in some subtle way. Who knows? But right now, people aren't making purchasing decisions on KS based around evaluating how the game actually plays, hands on, but how they imagine it could play.

You don't have to worry about that when you're selling someone on the potential of an idea. This is why demos have gone out of vogue in the mainstream, and they prefer to just use hype videos and push incentives on people to buy-before-they-try.

We're in an interesting phase, with Kickstarter. None of these game projects have delivered anything tangible yet. So there's no experience of disappointment, no build-up of cynicism, no caution. Just exuberance and unbridled hope. When the mainstream industry shows videos that look cool, we're cautious. We've been burned before. We take a "wait and see" approach. We hold back until the demo, or see what other players report. We remember past games that seemed promising but turned out to be duds.

Until some of these KS projects actually deliver, we're all still in dream land here.

AoD is in a different position. It's not floating in the clouds of ideal imagination. It's not saying "hey, here's the current build of the game but remember, it's still a WIP and we're still gonna add lots of stuff!" They're saying "This is it. This is what we built. This represents the final gameplay, we hope you like it enough to buy."

I remember a time when AoD generated that same unreserved enthusiasm amoungst old-school fans, especially on places like the Codex. That changed when they actually, you know, gave people the product to play with. Some people still love it, no doubt, but that unreserved enthusiasm doesn't tend to survive contact with reality."
 

Charles-cgr

OlderBytes
Developer
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
984
Project: Eternity
Has anyone started a KS making a demo available? None come to mind although some projects like Conquistador (and Dead State) claim significant progress. If the answer is no it could be due to KS restrictions (no hosting of files and don't allow linking to other sites).
 

alkeides

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
4,836
Quest for Infamy provided a short demo, it's the only KS I've funded so far.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
We're in an interesting phase, with Kickstarter. None of these game projects have delivered anything tangible yet. So there's no experience of disappointment, no build-up of cynicism, no caution. Just exuberance and unbridled hope. When the mainstream industry shows videos that look cool, we're cautious. We've been burned before. We take a "wait and see" approach. We hold back until the demo, or see what other players report. We remember past games that seemed promising but turned out to be duds.

Until some of these KS projects actually deliver, we're all still in dream land here.

AoD is in a different position. It's not floating in the clouds of ideal imagination. It's not saying "hey, here's the current build of the game but remember, it's still a WIP and we're still gonna add lots of stuff!" They're saying "This is it. This is what we built. This represents the final gameplay, we hope you like it enough to buy."

Huh? None of this is true. Plenty of projects used Kickstarter as "kickfinisher" to finish up or add to their game, and we've already seen the releases of that "Kickfinisher" variety, like FTL. Gareth is wrong.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
I dunno. I feel that FTL is an exception to the rule (and it would have been completed with or without KS). It was also one of the first projects if memory serves me right. The conquistador game barely hit the goal. In fact, they wouldn't have, if RPS didn't take pity on them and gave them a push, which shows that showing a game in action is less important than having someone to rave about it (i.e. it's not the KS platform that ensured their success).

It sure looks like the most successful projects are the ones that sell the dream. Fargo did extremely well without showing anything. The moment he showed the first screen, some people felt disappointed because it's not what they imagined it would be.
 

crakkie

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Messages
1,608
Location
Louisiana
Star Command, too. Did one kickstarter pre-DoubleFine, raised a modest amount and squandered the money, then came back for a second round 9 months later and raised 3x the money or somesuch?
Yeah here we go, game was "95% done" for the second kickstarter:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starcommand/star-command-sci-fi-meets-gamedev-story-for-ios-an

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starcommand/star-command-kickstart-part-2-the-pc-mac-space-adv

And that with some shitty press after they revealed how they wasted their first round.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,552
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
But, VD, you are doing it mostly to have your take on a good RPG. So what does it matter if some people are upset about features etc.? There are still people loving the game. So as far as i can see you just doubt that a Kickfinish will be successful, so you're not making it. I'd say go for it. It will either reveal the amount of support of your audience/boost your morale and give you a bit cash OR tell you, that nobody likes your vision.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
So what does it matter if some people are upset about features etc.?
It doesn't matter at all.

So as far as i can see you just doubt that a Kickfinish will be successful, so you're not making it.
I dislike Kickstarter (to put it mildly) and that's why I'm not making it. I think that as a model it's broken, although I'm definitely glad it exists (just like I'm glad that the traditional publishing model still exists, even though it too is broken) because at the moment it's the only option for companies like Obsidian or even DoubleBear to make games that nobody else would.

As for us, we've released two demos. We will finish the game with or without KS and I doubt that getting 50 or 70k will do anything other than giving us some spending money. AoD isn't an obscure game - we get a lot of unique visits, a lot of coverage (for an indie game), and we haven't really started promoting it yet. Thus, instead of asking people to "please help us finish the game!", I'd rather let them play the demo/game and decide if they want to pay for something like that. If we sell enough, we'll make more games. If we don't sell enough, well, I'll consider it a great experience and move on.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,552
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
I get it, but getting some cash/support/spending money is not a bad thing. I would say, your team has earned it. Even some filmmakers are asking for monies AFTER completing a movie - see Hotel Noir kickstarter.
Don't want to risk being a fallen paladin, right? I respect that. :obviously:

Edit: also might be a bit too late now, "jumping the bandwagon" etc...
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
If we truly earned it, we'll get it from pre-orders and sales. If not...
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,485
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Instead of debating the virtues of Kickstarter, why not concentrate on AoD's Greenlight entry? That's your key to success.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
It is considering that we asked for $25 to pre-order and averaged about $30 so far. I'd rather not spit these people in the face just to be on Steam.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,485
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It is considering that we asked for $25 to pre-order and averaged about $30 so far. I'd rather not spit these people in the face just to be on Steam.

I think they'd understand. But in any case, all prices drop eventually.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
There are many ways of dealing with that such as offering them a discount on future content equal to (or slightly greater than) the difference in cost. Expansions, sequels, merchandise, anything. Never feel like you can't be flexible with your economic decisions, simply look for ways to compensate after the fact. This is a valuable strategy that you can even turn around and use to encourage people to buy it there for the future benefit. It's similar to the kickstarter strategy except a bit more wholesome and less capitalist.
 

John Yossarian

Magister
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,000
Location
Pianosa
VD, those of us who paid more than $25 knew from the start that some people would pay less for the game, so I don't see the problem there. For those who paid $25, maybe you should poll to see what they think.

Also, what about kickstarting the AoD based dungeon crawler thingie?
 

EG

Nullified
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
4,264
As opposed to dropping the price, are you going to do an Indie-style backhand and bloat your price instead? ;)
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
Patron
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
15,048
Location
In quarantine
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Exposure on Steam seems worth dropping the price somewhat (I'm not saying $5, but something like $15-20), especially if you want it to sell enough to make a sequel possible. I don't think that'd be feasible without the kind of sales that only Steam can bring.
 

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