Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Vault Dweller: Age of Decadence needs to sell 45,000 copies to be successful

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
What can I say, wish you all the best, but you'll have to somehow make due with people like myself who are going to buy 2-3 copies. Unfortunately, there aren't many people I can preach to besides on this boards.
1 copy will be more than enough, thanks.
 

t

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,303
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
1 copy will be more than enough, thanks.
Like I said already, it bothers me that I've invested more in things like adventure-RPG light games (Shadowrun) than in AoD just because they played on my emotions and did kickstarters. I like to put my money where my mouth is.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Legend of Grimrock 2 didn't really flop, just returned to its natural proportions. I wonder what those Finns are up to now.

Last relevant posts from Almost Human staff: http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10081&p=97253#p97253

Well, unfortunately not quite so! Without going into specific numbers, the average revenue from a copy is a lot less than that. Grimrock 1 base price is $14.99 in Steam. Distributors take their share (30%), lots of copies are sold in sales with large percentage off the base price, Humble Bundle copies are cheaper... Then there's the tax system which takes a lion's share of the profit (first the company pays taxes and then we as individuals).

Note that I'm not complaining at all. We're doing quite ok and most importantly we can stay self-funded and keep making games the way we want, but we are nowhere filthy rich.

http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6865&p=94922#p94922

At the moment we are polishing the iPad version which is coming out real soon and I'm also toying with my new game engine. No idea yet what it's going to be used for and I don't want to rush into a new project before I'm completely sure what it's going to be. Besides I had forgot how much fun it is to build a new tech from ground up, so I want to spend more time in preproduction this time around.

http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6865&p=98177#p98177

It's not about money. LOG1 and LOG2 are how they are because of our preferences and vision of what kind of game we wanted to make. Even if we had 10x the budget, Grimrock games would not be modern open world (quest-based) games, which I personally don't find very interesting. In the early days of LOG2 development we tried to move into this direction, but found out we didn't like where that was leading us.

The best open world games for me are Ultima IV, Ultima V and ascii roguelikes, which tell simple stories on the surface but have compelling world and gameplay. Unfortunately translating these games into modern form is hard as you always seem to lose a lot of their appeal. The abstraction in these games is a really powerful tool for unlocking player's imagination. Ok, but now I'm starting to ramble...
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
If you want to financially support a dev, why not send them the money directly? There must be some way to do that with minimal fees.
 

t

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,303
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
If you want to financially support a dev, why not send them the money directly? There must be some way to do that with minimal fees.
Is there? If there is, I'd like to know, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
Donate to VD's Patreon!

26tFsKn.png
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
To answer your question, that would be the BMT option. You can pay more if you wish to do so (you can increase the price; the avg price via BMT was $31 when the game was selling for $24.99). However, there is no need to do that, so save your money.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,274
Location
Terra da Garoa
Did it? Owners: 147,145 ± 9,424? Seems pretty good, no?

If you compare it to the first game and its massive 900k copies sold, at least 400k copies were sold via bundles, possibly more.
Well, even if you remove 400k sales to be from bundles, the sequel - which is better in every way - sold way less. I also imagine it to be more expensive, considering how big the game is and how many new assets it use.

I'm glad that it was profitable in the end, but I doubt this was what the devs were expecting...
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
I don't think the typical AAA expectation of sequels selling more and more holds true for this new wave of low-budget RPG's. See also: the Shadowrun games.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Somebody should have told Swen Vincke that before he committed 90 people to making his sequel. :M

Hopefully it's a cycle that can be broken.
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
Somebody should have told Swen Vincke that before he committed 90 people to making his sequel. :M

Hopefully it's a cycle that can be broken.
Well, D:OS is closer to an AAA game than any other indie RPG - it's about to get a fully voiced console release at a price point of 60 dollars.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,480
Location
Vigil's Keep
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
30K+ copies is realistic, if they get positive coverage from someone like TotalBiscuit. Although he makes videos about maybe 1 out of 20 games he gets, so the chance is slim. If you do send him a review code Vault Dweller , describing the game as a 'fantasy urban intrigue simulator than has been in development for more than 10 years' is a good idea, since he is more likely to cover something unique and interesting-looking rather than 'post-apocalyptic fantasy RPG with turn-based combat'.

EDIT:
Mentioning that coverage long after release is fine will not hurt either.
 
Last edited:

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
If GoG gives us free keys, we'll pass them to everyone who bought directly from us and wants one.
 

Mychkine

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
78
I hope they will review it too, but sadly, as you may know, Omar left CanardPc, so who could replace him?
Even with the departure of Omar, there are still rather honest journalists in Canard PC. Let's hope they will carry on the policy of reviewing good rpgs. Is there a thread about the on their forum?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,048
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Minus Steam's cut and taxes.

Edit: Steam takes 30% so 450k, which IS a lot of cheddar instantly becomes 315k, which is still a nice number but not nearly as nice as 450k. Then comes taxes. We have to file both in Canada and the US because the US wants to tax every penny made on the US soil. It's the only country in the western world that does it. So in Canada the tax rate is about 15%, the US wants 30% (not from all Steam sales but sales to the US citizens which is a majority). The US tax code is a time-honored mess and subject of many debates, so I'm still not sure how much exactly we're supposed to pay.

Hey Vince, did you already check on the specific double taxation treaty your country has with the US? Over here in Germany, I can get back all the US taxes I pay on US income by submitting a certain tax form, as long as I pay taxes in my home country.
So, basically: my country of residence is Germany, so I pay taxes on my world income in Germany. The US has a double taxation agreement with us, and once my taxes are paid in Germany, the US will consider them paid and not tax me on the profits anymore.
Most of these agreements say the taxes have to be paid in the country of residence, UNLESS it is income gained from real estate or other location-bound sources that are located in the other country (in which case it would be US tax only, and no further tax in your own country).

I only know about Germany - USA and Germany - Bulgaria (because I plan to move there in a few years), but they both work like that: pay taxes in main country of residence; get no taxes from country you made your profits in because they consider the tax already paid.
I have no idea how it's between Canada and the US, but you should definitely look into it.
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
I only know about Germany - USA and Germany - Bulgaria (because I plan to move there in a few years), but they both work like that: pay taxes in main country of residence; get no taxes from country you made your profits in because they consider the tax already paid.
I have no idea how it's between Canada and the US, but you should definitely look into it.

Yes, it looks like VD can get the withholding tax reduced due to the US/Canada treaty, he just has to submit the right form (W-8BEN). I included some details in this post:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-to-be-successful.103562/page-2#post-4132637

(This is assuming he doesn't have a permanent office or >50% employees there)
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,048
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
First thing I did when I started making international income was checking on the relevant double taxation agreements. That shit is damn complicated, but it saves you a LOT of money if you deal with the bureaucracy of it. I hope you manage to get it so you only have to pay Canadian taxes, since they're lower than American ones.
 

AetherVagrant

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
519
First thing I did when I started making international income was checking on the relevant double taxation agreements. That shit is damn complicated, but it saves you a LOT of money if you deal with the bureaucracy of it. I hope you manage to get it so you only have to pay Canadian taxes, since they're lower than American ones.
lol, dont let any american's hear you say that. According to them Canada is the nanny-tax-em-all state bar-none. supposedly the taxes are so high that poor suffering plastic surgeons have to come to the states just to make a measly 300k per year.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
ITT I start to wonder if indie devs know about S-corps and pass through taxation. No reason to pay tax at the corporate level if you have less than 100 shareholders, just pass it through to each SH so they pay individual income tax on it at a lower marginal rate.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom