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Fallout Van Buren by Tim Cain?

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Spotted in the Something Awful WL2 thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...rid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=137#post438683022

Admittedly there are apparently a couple of different Van Burens, started and scrapped over the course of the concept's life, and the design docs we have cover at least two (New Canaan / Jericho cover two at once). Still. The first rough concept, by Tim Cain and co., is probably closest to a Wasteland sort of thing - Presper (or whatever his name is) is a pre-war scientist woken from cryosleep who decides to wipe the planet clean. That's the sort of high concept sci-fi that can be worked into a WL framework.

But yes, the general sense that you get, reading the documents, is that while Fallouts 1/2 generally picked from classic Roger Corman "ray guns and giant ants" sci-fi for its creative anachronism, Avellone and Sawyer's VB emit more of a 60's / 70's cold war vibe, particularly in the Denver, Reservation, Nursery, and Boulder concepts (the Limit 115 virus in particular is heavily reminiscent of The Andromeda Strain / The Omega Man or even The Stand, though as I understand it that wasn't necessarily something that was definitely making it into the game). The setting also shifts from the post-post-apocalypse of Fallout 2, in which nascent societies like NCR and Vault City are rising and starting to resemble pre-war communities, to... well, a post-post-post apocalypse in which all of those societies collapsed and communities are on the brink (or about to dirty bomb everyone else and take over, in the Reservation's case). As of the end of the game the most powerful faction in the wastes is most likely Caesar's Legion, only occasionally encountered in forward camps and the margins of the map. That's not a promising future.

I spent a good year or two trying to pull as much of what was out there about VB together as I could for a pen and paper campaign back in the mid-'00s. Even managed to pick Sawyer and Avellone's brains about it, the former quite extensively, before Obsidian got the chance to work on the license again and both became relatively unreachable. Avellone in particular didn't remember a ton about it (though he does have design docs that aren't public, as evidenced by some talks he's given). But the sense that I got was that, if nothing else, they were distancing themselves from the way that Fallout 2 played out its humor. Everything I read was subdued. But that isn't to say that there wouldn't have been comical companions or dialogue. It's just that none of that came out of the stories in the docs.

Left is right, right is left! Tim Cain went for the Wasteland sci-fi lulz, Sawyer and Avellone wanted to reverse course! What would shihonage say?

I didn't even know Tim Cain ever had anything to do with a third Fallout game. How did I miss that?
 
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Seaking4

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Avellone wanted to reverse course on his own work?

Whose idea was the shit where every vault was a sinister social experiment? Did that start in FO2 somewhere?

It was. The President tells you (not sure if there is another way to find out about it). I think the idea behind it was stupid (vaults to save the human race ... perfect time to experiment and cause people to die) but it has led to some cool things so I'm willing to let it slide.
 
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Seaking4

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That guy sounds pretty butthurt.

Avellone wanted to reverse course on his own work?
I don't think Avellone has ever actually been the lead designer of a Fallout game.

Didn't he work on Fallout 2 which was more "sci-fi lulz" than F1? That's what I meant by reverse the course. I don't actually know what parts he worked on though so maybe I've got the wrong designers.
 

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Hey, this thread is about Van Buren. :M

I didn't even know Tim Cain ever had anything to do with a third Fallout game. How did I miss that.
When did he work on a Fallout 3 when he left the company during F2's production?
 

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Hey, this thread is about Van Buren. :M

I didn't even know Tim Cain ever had anything to do with a third Fallout game. How did I miss that.
When did he work on a Fallout 3 when he left the company during F2's production?

http://huagl.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=436

What is Van Buren?
Van Buren was the internal project name for what was to be Black Isle Studio's third entry in the Fallout series of retro-futuristic apocalyptic hardcore RPGs (the name schema was order of US Presidents, making VB the 8th internal project at Black Isle). At its earliest point, it was sketched out by the original team of Fallout designers (Tim Cain / Jason Anderson / Leonard Boyarski) while they were working on Fallout 2 at Black Isle. Towards the end of FO2, however, that team decamped to found the late lamented Troika.

Guess they had time?

EDIT: Actually, it looks like that post is by the guy who wrote the post on SA. Hope he's not making shit up.
 
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I'm pretty sure Tim and the others left Interplay before Fallout 2 was even out of pre-production because of disagreements with Interplay. That wouldn't really give them much time to sketch out plans for Fallout 3, although I suppose it's possible. This is the first I've ever heard of it.
 

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I'm pretty sure Tim and the others left Interplay before Fallout 2 was even out of pre-production because of disagreements with Interplay. That wouldn't really give them much time to sketch out plans for Fallout 3, although I suppose it's possible. This is the first I've ever heard of it.

I'd kinda suspect that FO2 was supposed to be the easy money same engine reused asset slam dunkaroo and then a real sequel would be on the horizon so it's possible
 

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I'm pretty sure Tim and the others left Interplay before Fallout 2 was even out of pre-production because of disagreements with Interplay. That wouldn't really give them much time to sketch out plans for Fallout 3, although I suppose it's possible. This is the first I've ever heard of it.

I'd kinda suspect that FO2 was supposed to be the easy money same engine reused asset slam dunkaroo and then a real sequel would be on the horizon so it's possible

I will ask Josh Sawyer.
 

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Left is right, right is left! Tim Cain went for the Wasteland sci-fi lulz, Sawyer and Avellone wanted to reverse course! What would shihonage say?

I judge the tree by its fruit. The core of what made Fallout special was not its setting but its design. Tim Cain of 1997 is running inside a virtual machine in my mind. The rest is irrelevant.
 
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Left is right, right is left! Tim Cain went for the Wasteland sci-fi lulz, Sawyer and Avellone wanted to reverse course! What would shihonage say?

I judge the tree by its fruit. The core of what made Fallout special was not its setting but its design. Tim Cain of 1997 is running inside a virtual machine in my mind. The rest is irrelevant.
So, your favourite cRPG is Ultima III?

Yes, shit abominable retarded idea "vaults are social experiment" started in FO2 :(

Heh. It's not so bad, although it seems more like something from the Cthulhu mythos than something the government would do.
No, it is that bad, it's completely retarded, comic book style Evil Scientists doing Mad Science for the lulz. All issues of ethics and practicality aside, there is no fucking way anyone would even consider spending that much time and resources on a psychology experiment. The whole thing is completely immersion breaking and the main reason why I consider Fallout 1 to be the only real game in the series.
I remember reading that the purpose of the experiment was to test how people will behave in isolation before the Enclave would embark on a space ship and fly to another star system. The problem was that the starship was destroyed during war.
 

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I always assumed that the broad events and major plot points where decided while Tim Cain and his buddies were still on board. So, the Enclave, the Vault Experiments & the Geck, being major elements, they would have been designed when Cain was still on board, but the execution itself and some minor stuff where brought afterward.

About Cain's Fo3, could it be the suspiciously similar substitute TroĂŻka was devellopping when they tried to buy the IP from Universal's Interplay ? (and were outbidden by Beth)
 

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Left is right, right is left! Tim Cain went for the Wasteland sci-fi lulz, Sawyer and Avellone wanted to reverse course! What would shihonage say?
What Wasteland sci-fi lulz?

Read the OP quote.
You mean this:
Admittedly there are apparently a couple of different Van Burens, started and scrapped over the course of the concept's life, and the design docs we have cover at least two (New Canaan / Jericho cover two at once). Still. The first rough concept, by Tim Cain and co., is probably closest to a Wasteland sort of thing - Presper (or whatever his name is) is a pre-war scientist woken from cryosleep who decides to wipe the planet clean. That's the sort of high concept sci-fi that can be worked into a WL framework.
?
 

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