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unique combat system? (Starships Unlimited)

kyrub

Augur
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
347
Starship Unlimited (SU) is a pretty old, 4X game in space, developped as indie by 1 person (IIRC), later sold to a company. I think it is quite unknown (but I am sure there are some codexians who know it?). It has got some good reviews (8.0 on Gamespot), but it never becasme a hit and it seems to be totally forgotten today.


First, SU was usually classed as a RT game with pause. This is more or less a mistake, or it's true to the same extent as for X-COM games, where you have a RT strategy level, but combat is turn-based. When you enter the combat in SU, you are automatically paused for every single ship movement. That's as turned based as can be.

Starships Unlimited is a strategy game in space, but it is oriented not on planet development or diplomacy, but on ships. It's only highlight is its COMBAT SYSTEM, which is most original and fun to play. I wonder - was this system ever replicated in another game?


shot0.jpg

On this screen you see an encounter of enemy ships. I'll try to explain the originality of SU combat with it.
Every ship has its drive, its front and rear shields (dotted circles around the ship), it has its weapons, that are demonstrated by different geometric shapes around the ships (conique, circle, conique segment etc. - explanation below).

This is quite normal in most space 4x games, where you move and shoot, deal damage etc. What makes the big difference in SU? You cannot move wherever you want. The movement of a ship can follow a few distinct patterns only - sort of special manoeuver. Your ship may move straight (simplest pattern), or suddenly turn away, back away, rotate etc. You choose the manoeuver at the beginning of the turn, your enemy does as well. Then both manoeuvers are executed simultaneously. If during your manoeuver you gain a fire opportunity (your enemy steps into one of the attack geometric shapes, think of weapon range), the turn stops, and you may fire your weapons. You need to have your weapon re-charged by your drive, obviously, before firing again.

This simple mechanics creates thrilling combat situations and options. You may tail your enemy and try to shoot through his rear shields (which are usually weaker). You may need to avoid the same from him with a special manoeuver. Sometimes you are able to wound enemy ship from one side and you need to strike again on the spot, sometimes you try to finish a broken enemy who is trying to overdrive and flee.


shot1.jpg

Many of weapon types come into the equation: will you mount a gun (conique range field), a wave weapon (circle range that can hurt from both sides of the shield at once), or even the energy weapon, that has only small conique segment but it strikes very hardly? You may launch small fighter groups that attack independently, you may even mount a special ram device to physically ram and destroy your opponent - this one is probably the hardest and the most satisfying option!

And to top the great features: the manoeuver variants are not granted from the beginning. They represent the skills of your ship's crew. The more experienced the crew, the more variants are available. So your ships begin with very simple skills and can be easily out-manoeured in first combat. This gives a plenty of nice situations...

So (if you share a bit of my enthusiasm for these features) - why the hell the game never became a hit? Because anything outside the combat is not half as good as the combat itself. Planet management, Research, Diplomacy, all is basic or even badly executed (you get economically punished for building up new colonies, bleh). But, what really spoils the show: the game does not give you a lot of opportunities to do its best part - to fight with enemy ships! It's ultra disapointing. The battles are unforgettable, but they are rare. I had 1 massive battle (like the image above) in 10 hours of gaming, grrrr! Incredible. It's like HoMM without big fights.


  • Does anybody know SU?
    Have you had more luck, enjoyment while playing it?
    Was this original kind of combat ever replicated in another game (space or fantasy)?
 

Orgasm

Barely Literate
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
1,360
Flotilla has the same phase based we-go system. You plan your turn and let it run. If you get lucky, you hit the side or the bottom of the enemy ships. AI is too dumb to cope with simple pincer movements.
http://www.blendogames.com/flotilla/

Here are 2 starting ships and a laser frigatte with laughable range, winning an impossible encounter against the 2 most powerful ships by hiding behind asteroids and popamoling from behind them to shoot...
mXFOG.jpg
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
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Poland
There are several games with simultaneous turns and similar combat but none of those are set in space or deal with ships IIRC. Tactical simulators mainly.

The rest of the game truly looks bad. A pity.
 

kyrub

Augur
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
347
Malakal said:
There are several games with simultaneous turns and similar combat but none of those are set in space or deal with ships IIRC. Tactical simulators mainly.
Which ones? I don't really care about the thing being situated in space. But I don't want the big army "simultaneous turn" operations. That's not it.

What I used to love in Starships Unlimited was the "gladiator fight" feeling - you enter in an arena with (often) a single enemy who is as well prepared as you do. You have to find his desing's weak spots, you have to take advantage of unexpected situations. You see your systems failing after being damaged... You have your crew working on quick repairs... I never really met that feeling in any other game. Frenzy.

There were a lot of shortcommings in SU. Maybe if some other big name developper took over the ideas, it could be THE game for me.



Re: Flotilla
Thanks, I will have a look.
 

Malakal

Arcane
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There was this new game.. Frozen Synapse? It has pre-planned turns. But it sucks. Alas.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
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Ingrija
I played SU several years ago, great game. The other-than-combat stuff isn't half as bad as you say.

As for new colonies, it's by design. Settling a brand new planet and making it a thriving and profitable enterprise is an endeavour costing decades worth of homeplanet's planetwide GDP, otherwise we'd long have ski resorts on Jupiter. The guy just decided to make sense there instead of going the usual way, and unpopulated systems are out there mostly to be drained of resources with automated freighters, not to be settled.
 

kyrub

Augur
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
347
mondblut said:
I played SU several years ago, great game. The other-than-combat stuff isn't half as bad as you say.
Fellow brother in SU! I knew Codex would help me.

A bit of googling and I saw that the game got a big update in 2005. I have tried the demo and it's great, nice music, average graphics, strange UI but the gameplay... Most important, AIs are now quite aggressive, more fights. I got kicked out pretty quick (on Impossible, of course). This is a unique turnbased experience with nice strategic layer. Great work, Andrew Ewanchyna. :salute:


(Now I really don't get it: why is Starships Unlimited so underrated (if one can use this word for something that got rating 8.0/10 from Gamespot, 79/100 from PC gamer and 90/100 from some other site)? Maybe its main problem is that it was released along with Galciv and Moo3 and that it was labeled as a Real time thing.)
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
On higher difficulty settings, the AI is very aggressive and largely intractable. Raid with fighters, and spam standoffs. One quirk of the AI is that he will preferentially attack your newest colony, so bury that sucker in missile launchers and armor plating and spam missiles at the attacking armada like rice at wedding. Fire them manually! The default gunner does not fire them nearly aggressively enough, as such battles are a race to the bottom of the magazine before they can get close enough to wipe your colony. Every functional tube should be cycling at every turn, filling the sky with a rain of deadly missiles. There is no other way you're gonna survive the inevitable 15-20-ship ganking squads until you have the tech and artifacts to put together super-cruisers. The two main designs I find work best are the double-fire extra-mag quadmissile cloaking cruiser, and the whackton-of-generators + super beam cannon + cloak + unlimited overload cruiser. This last one pretty much has to be operated manually, but anything you can draw a bead on can be instantly slagged as you can dump all energy into attack. Only bother to equip forward shields, and remember that whatever you do, you only need one shield, you can always just keep pumping more power into that one shield. I have seen bizarre AI designs with multiple shields per side, and they just baffle me. And above all else, ACTIVATE SUPER BEAM CANNON! FIRE!

You don't actually need good beam tech: Pretty much any energy weapon simply converts reactor energy to damage at approximately the same (unfavorable) ratio. You will actually drain more power from enemy ships simply tanking with shields than you will by firing back. Let them drain their power, then quickly slaughter them.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Poland
What? This is retarded, firing energy weapons is so inefficient that it is better to tank all this? Oh man.

While I do like your remarks about the super beam (death star style) and missile spam (Homeworld style) the rest sounds bad, really bad...
 

kyrub

Augur
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
347
Malakal said:
What? This is retarded, firing energy weapons is so inefficient that it is better to tank all this? Oh man.
Huh? I think he meant one specific feature of the game. You may "overload" your energy weapon (or shield), e.g. quickly relocate energy from another part of the ship to fire more. Emergency overloading brings some risks, the component can suffer 20% damage and become dysfunctional for the turn. It's one of great features of STUN. Sadly, it's a bit overpowered and - most important - AIs don't use it. Repeated use could be seen as an exploit.

The important feature of STUN is the small number of ships overall. Every ship has its own route of development (and its unique name), it uses artifacts found on planets to become good in specific area. A nice RPG side to the game.


@Norfleet
I'm a STUN amateur, but this is surely not the only tactic possible. STUN is much deeper, there are various powerful devices and powerful ways to victory (as you certainly know better than me). Endgame Wave weapons give you the capacity to spin your opponent's ship unctrollably, for instance. Death rays strip the opponent ships of crew. And if you fall behind in technology, there are magnificent assault pods - go capture his hi-tec ships and use them against him! ((Although I agree some parts are quite unbalanced. I still did not get around Stand-offs weapon family. These things are monstrous.))

Last colony attack is a bug (said the Creator), a dumb_AI_bug. Bad.

To see the tech/weapon/strategy variety in STUN, one can take a look at this thread:
http://apezone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=694
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
kyrub said:
Malakal said:
What? This is retarded, firing energy weapons is so inefficient that it is better to tank all this? Oh man.
Huh? I think he meant one specific feature of the game. You may "overload" your energy weapon (or shield), e.g. quickly relocate energy from another part of the ship to fire more. Emergency overloading brings some risks, the component can suffer 20% damage and become dysfunctional for the turn.
That is only true of weapons that have not been upgraded with the Unlimited Overload artifact. Once you have that artifact, you can slap it on a ship and create a ship that is simply a single giant beam cannon support. If you don't have it, this option is out and beams are therefore crap, because the exchange rate of energy-used-to-damage-caused is unfavorable. If you DO have it, it doesn't matter if your beam is a primitive lazor cannon because all that matters is energy-to-damage, and unlimited overload allows you to basically just flush more power into it until it dies: As all but the final beam weapon have exactly the same energy-to-damage conversion ratios, it does not matter which gun you use.

kyrub said:
It's one of great features of STUN. Sadly, it's a bit overpowered and - most important - AIs don't use it. Repeated use could be seen as an exploit.
I think the entire point of artifacts is to exploit them.

kyrub said:
I'm a STUN amateur, but this is surely not the only tactic possible. STUN is much deeper, there are various powerful devices and powerful ways to victory (as you certainly know better than me).
Sure, there are other tactics possible, but I'm an individual that likes to focus on what works, and that means picking about 2 or 3 core, reliable strategies and running with them. Every other strategy I have heard of seems to shortchange you in some way and thus detract from the game experience.

kyrub said:
Endgame Wave weapons give you the capacity to spin your opponent's ship unctrollably
This is one of those weapons that works better for them than for you. You were never controlling their ship to begin with, so the loss of control has no real effect on you. If anything, all it does is make your opponent's ship motion less predictable, thus allowing unpredictable occurrences to happen. Additionally, it throws them AWAY from you, out of range, which makes it harder to KILL THEM. If you are using waves as a primary armament, this is not a good thing. If you are not using waves as a primary armament, unless you are trying to kill your opponent by repeatedly flushing Defensive Wave at him in endless overload, you have too many silly weapons on your ship and not enough energy. Or missiles.

Plus, the range is terrible and energy-to-damage is abominable. Waves make good point defense weapons in the endgame, but that's about it.

kyrub said:
Death rays strip the opponent ships of crew.
They also have all the worst aspects of both missiles and waves: Terrible energy exchange ratio, AND limited ammo. Don't get me wrong: Missiles are great weapons: They cost no energy to fire, have a good firing arc, and respectable range, which makes them a good "ship of the line" weapon. But death rays are terrible. Sorry. STUN2 and STUNDG didn't even have these weapons, and they're basically a waste of time. I do not find them useful in my hands, nor do I find them particularly threatening in the enemy's hands. You know what ELSE strips opponent ships of crew? BEING SHOT IN GENERAL, AND THE SUDDEN DECOMPRESSION THAT OCCURS WHEN THEIR SHIP EXPLODES AS IT IS SLAMMED BY 10 STANDOFFS.

kyrub said:
And if you fall behind in technology, there are magnificent assault pods - go capture his hi-tec ships and use them against him!
You WILL fall behind in technology. The AI likes to rush his tech upgrades, and misses out on all the juicy artifacts. Assault pods, however, are for assaulting planets. Being able to assault a ship with them is basically a lucky occurrence, because ships tend to self-destruct themselves, and plus, you need to cripple the enemy ship first so you can even USE them...something you are PROBABLY not going to be doing with your primitive weapons, since standoff spam is NOT A PRECISION INSTRUMENT and you ARE going to frag it. And if you AREN'T spamming standoffs, YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE.

kyrub said:
((Although I agree some parts are quite unbalanced. I still did not get around Stand-offs weapon family. These things are monstrous.))
They're the best defensive weapons in the game, simply the AI always attacks with massive, overwhelming hordes as part of their in-built AI cheaty-advantage, and therefore you need something that you can start lobbing before they get into range, getting as many into the air as possible before they can even begin firing on you. OTHERWISE YOUR PLANET IS TOAST. Not even the most powerful of superbeamcruisers can effectively defend a planet against this kind of onslaught. There are simply too many!

In short, here are the weapons of choice:
1. Fighters are the most effective early offense for raiding enemy colonies: They have unlimited ammo as long as they are not killed, and thus you can park your carriers just out of range and repeatedly strafe the enemy colony. It may take awhile. Consider this as your secondary or tertiary weapon: You must pay extra for this, but this is an early weapon and you will not use them in the endgame.
2. Standoffs are the most effective early defense: Barges full of them and a planet packed with mostly them can hold an entire enemy fleet. Fighters can also be used in a pinch, if you have the carriers above, but they are suboptimal, because they don't do good burst damage, which is what you need in a defense. The Defensive Standoffs also have an extremely favorable size-to-damage ratio for an early weapon. Definitely make this weapon fambly your first research target: You want as many, and the best, of these, and they will form your defensive armament throughout the entire game.
3. Missiles are the best "General Purpose" dogfighting weapons. No special artifacts are needed to make a missileboat work, although DoubleShot and DoubleAmmo can make them quite powerful. Consider as a secondary or tertiary weapon.
4. Beams are the best "When It Absolutely, Positively, Has To Die" ship, but you MUST have Overload Without Damage to use it. Without this artifact, these weapons are less than worthless: You take more damage firing them than they take being hit by them (unless you hit hull, where energy cannot be directly compared). Thus, energy weapons only work as brute-force attacks when you no longer care that you are going to expend much more energy than your opponent is going to, because you can afford it with your half a dozen Singularity Generators. Bolts are the "poor man's beam", lacking the reach of the Super Beam Cannon, but having a more flexible firing arc. However, you don't really want to dogfight with these kinds of ships, you want to just back away on reverse thrust, allowing your opponent to catch up to you and walk straight into the path of your super beam cannon, where you then mow him down instantly. That said, don't prioritize this research at all: A low-tech beam is just as good as a high-tech beam when used as above. When not used as above, it just sucks.
5. Throwing in a cloaking device and an anticloak scanner on the above allows you to create a deadly ambush predator that can mow down an opposing ship before he knows what the hell hit him. In fact, once you have it, cloak is a must. Your enemy must give up a shipslot to counter it at all, otherwise he is so much meat, as he cannot hurt you until you decloak to fire, by which time he is dead and it is too late, since the only warning he gets that your ship is in range is him being killed by your lazor of death.

Defensively, either don't bother with shields at all, or stick a single forward shield on it. Any ship slot wasted on additional protection is one that isn't spent on killing. Carriers and Standoff Barges should not be anywhere near the fight anyway, they should just boost the hell away from the fight and start launching, so shields and even more than one coat of armor are wasted slots...and only bother to install an armor to fill an oddslot you can't stick more fighters or standoffs in. In a late-game ship, throwing in a defensive wave, particularly on the above Beam Cannon ship, is a great defense, as both weapons will benefit from the Overload Without Damage and waves are a good "AUGH, GET IT OFF, GET IT OFF!" weapon in this situation when facing enemy fighters or standoffs. Higher-end waves are crap, though.
 

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