Game News Underworld Ascendant Kickstarter Update #34: Funded!

[karnak]

• A lot of little things throughout the campaign pointed to the lack of a coherent vision. Co-op and the KS exclusives in particular came across as poor matches for a game attempting to emulate the feeling of UU.
• Failure to take their audience into account. Again you can point to co-op and exclusives here: they kept pimping the co-op angle in interviews long after backers made it clear that they weren't interested in it for this sort of game, and the ever-increasing number of exclusives gave off a pay-to-win vibe that would certainly be a turnoff to many old-school gamers (as you aptly put it, "trying in vain to extract F2P MMO dollars from single player RPG backers").

When Rock Paper Shotgun did an extensive article on their Kickstarter I was one of the few guys who said it was a stupid idea to make a "co-op Ultima Underworld". It would only be a pointless and stupid idea that would only hinder the game's development and ruin the ambiance (one of the great things about the Ultima Underworld games was the idea that you were thrown into a big, scary pit, alone in the dark.
I was insulted and bashed because of attacking "co-op" play. Considering the struggle that this game had to get funded I supposed that all those co-op lovers were only a bunch of Trolls who like to play co-op in pirated Call of Duty games, but don't want to pay to see a multiplayer game get done.

Stupidity... Stupidity never changes

 

[Infinitron]

Sorry Tuco, you're still annoying

Have to say that concluding paragraph in the post took me completely by surprise, considering our argument in the other thread less than a week ago.

I didn't say they're making an F2P MMO. Just that they used Kickstarter marketing techniques reminiscent of one.

Every interaction I've had with these guys tells me that they're the real thing. Hence the use of the word incongruent.

 

[Darkzone]

I understand it must be frustrating, having Star Ctizien with like 500 billion dollars from selling all kinds of in-game stuff while your "LOOKING FUCKING GLASS STUDIOS 2.0" campaign can barely raise 800k... but they are following the same twisted logic as DRM; they are going hard on those that pay to compensate for those who don't... and we know how well that works.

Now, I know people don't like to hear this argument around here because "graphics" is welcomed more or less like a dirty word...
But why do you think Start Citizen started racking money so quickly when it was presented? Because space sims are a genre with a market appeal far wider than immersive sims/first person RPGs?

Star Citizen made only on Kickstarter $2.1mio: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen?ref=nav_search
Despite the super graphixz, so no valid argument there.

When Rock Paper Shotgun did an extensive article on their Kickstarter I was one of the few guys who said it was a stupid idea to make a "co-op Ultima Underworld". It would only be a pointless and stupid idea that would only hinder the game's development and ruin the ambiance (one of the great things about the Ultima Underworld games was the idea that you were thrown into a big, scary pit, alone in the dark.
I was insulted and bashed because of attacking "co-op" play. Considering the struggle that this game had to get funded I supposed that all those co-op lovers were only a bunch of Trolls who like to play co-op in pirated Call of Duty games, but don't want to pay to see a multiplayer game get done.
Stupidity... Stupidity never changes

I think that nearly every codexer was against co-op in UA. At codex you would have been assaulted and attacked, if you would be advocating for co-op mode.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Sorry Tuco, you're still annoying

...Ok?
Incidentally, that doesn't make me wrong. But even just one single sensible argument against what I said could change my mind (and I mean one which doesn't read essentially like "WHAAAA I DISLIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU SOUND LIKE A GRAPHICS WHORE!").

EDIT: On a side note, you could appreciate I still brofisted your OP, because you being bitter as fuck doesn't make me biased against the sensible comment you made on this KS.

Star Citizen made only on Kickstarter $2.1mio: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen?ref=nav_search
Despite the super graphixz, so no valid argument there.

Star Citizen was racking money on their private website even before their Kickstarter launched.
By the time they got 2 millions on KS they were at 6-7 millions of total funding.

 

[Athelas]

Oh hey, it's the same graphics-obssed guy...now on the Obsidian forums:

Tuco Benedicto, on 01 Mar 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:
aesthetically unappealing for me in the beta were characters' models and animations... And I was wondering: let's say some modders decide to revamp/replace them, it would be technically feasible with Unity as core engine?

 

[Darkzone]

Star Citizen made only on Kickstarter $2.1mio: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen?ref=nav_search
Despite the super graphixz, so no valid argument there.

Star Citizen was racking money on their private website even before their Kickstarter launched. By the time they got 2 millions on KS they were at 6-7 millions of total funding.

Yes and now they have $74mio, so still it is no argument. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
So kickstart made barely 2.8% of their entire revenues.

 

[karnak]

When Rock Paper Shotgun did an extensive article on their Kickstarter I was one of the few guys who said it was a stupid idea to make a "co-op Ultima Underworld". It would only be a pointless and stupid idea that would only hinder the game's development and ruin the ambiance (one of the great things about the Ultima Underworld games was the idea that you were thrown into a big, scary pit, alone in the dark.
I was insulted and bashed because of attacking "co-op" play. Considering the struggle that this game had to get funded I supposed that all those co-op lovers were only a bunch of Trolls who like to play co-op in pirated Call of Duty games, but don't want to pay to see a multiplayer game get done.
Stupidity... Stupidity never changes

I think that nearly every codexer was against co-op in UA. At codex you would have been assaulted and attacked, if you would be advocating for co-op mode.

Considering the state of most comments in gaming-related sites I'd say that RPGCodex is a place of sanity and peace.
Even the Trolls here seem to have a minimum degree of intelligence and reason.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Oh hey, it's the same graphics-obssed guy...again:
:

Yes, it's me. So? What's your problem with that, exactly?

Star Citizen made only on Kickstarter $2.1mio: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen?ref=nav_search
Despite the super graphixz, so no valid argument there.

Star Citizen was racking money on their private website even before their Kickstarter launched. By the time they got 2 millions on KS they were at 6-7 millions of total funding.

Yes and now they have $74mio, so still it is no argument. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
So kickstart made barely 2.8% of their entire revenues.

I'm not sure what's the point you are trying to make here?
I never claimed the majority of money came from KS, so that's a bit irrelevant. I said the game made a lot of money quickly from the beginning because it presented itself as immediately ambitious, desirable and appealing.

 

[Darkzone]

I think that nearly every codexer was against co-op in UA. At codex you would have been assaulted and attacked, if you would be advocating for co-op mode.

Considering the state of most comments in gaming-related sites I'd say that RPGCodex is a place of sanity and peace.
Even the Trolls here seem to have a minimum degree of intelligence and reason.

You are right concerning the point that the people are here more intelligent then on the normal game sites. But this is due to the fact that RPG require more intelligence than popamole games, therefore rpg fans are per default more intelligent.

Edit:

I'm not sure what's the point you are trying to make here?
I never claimed the majority of money came from KS, so that's a bit irrelevant. I said the game made a lot of money quickly from the beginning because it presented itself as immediately ambitious, desirable and appealing.

The point is graphic is not a major point in sims games and even less in cRPGs then in popamole games. The money for Star Citizen is due to the fact that this is a space sim, and this genere was neglected since over 10-15 years, if not longer.
A space shoter or space sim with nice graphics == YEEAHH.
A rpg with super graphic == ok.. nice. but what about the rpg elements?
A survial sim with nice graphic == ok . nice. but what about the survival elements?
(example of not supreme graphic and made with Unity3d: http://intothelongdark.com/ )
And that is the difference between Star Citizen and UA. Both are differente generes and there are different expectations towards this kind of games. Only some minor popamoles complained about the graphic of the UA prototype.
Most of the RPG are not graphic dependent, and kickstarter are not about graphic, but about game ideas and interesting not AAA games concepts.

 

[Infinitron]

That money stuff doesn't really matter.

You'll notice that I avoided mentioning the campaign's funding performance in that part of my post. That was on purpose. In my opinion, this Kickstarter was actually reasonably successful. It made fewer than 100,000 dollars less than Divinity: Original Sin did. That's not bad for 2015.

My little editorial is strictly about how the Underworld Kickstarter's F2P-like marketing alienated a significant portion of its prospective audience. I don't think that portion of the audience - RPG fans with a "Codexian" perspective - is numerically important in terms of funding. But it is important in terms of hyping up the game going forward.

Most of the game's backers are going to go away now and wait for it to be released. They won't participate. It's the hardcore base, people like us, that have to keep on spreading the word. But that won't happen if OtherSide don't clean up their act.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I'm not sure what's the point you are trying to make here?
I never claimed the majority of money came from KS, so that's a bit irrelevant. I said the game made a lot of money quickly from the beginning because it presented itself as immediately ambitious, desirable and appealing.

The point is graphic is not a major point in sims games and even less in cRPGs then in popamole games. The money for Star Citizen is due to the fact that this is a space sim, and this genere was neglected since over 10-15 years, if not longer.
A space shoter or space sim with nice graphics == YEEAHH.
A rpg with super graphic == ok.. nice. but what about the rpg elements?
A survial sim with nice graphic == ok . nice. but what about the survival elements?
(example of not supreme graphic and made with Unity3d: http://intothelongdark.com/ )
And that is the difference between Star Citizen and UA. Both are differente generes and there are different expectations towards this kind of games. Only some minor popamoles complained about the graphic of the UA prototype.
Most of the RPG are not graphing dependent, and kickstarter are not about graphic, but about game ideas and interesting not AAA games concepts.

Uh, ok? But NO ONE here was arguing about prioritizing graphics above everything else. The argument is that presenting your product in the best possible light and in the most appealing way helps a lot to get funds faster and more reliably.

Star Citizen wasn't even the first space sim in years. There have been several other cases, mostly on the low-mid budget tier, and almost systematically in the "shitty-designed" tiers. Star Citizen was simply the first in years that looked *competent* and ambitious enough to appeal to many.
A lot of Kickstarters that weren't backed by former glories or current celebrities of game development managed to be reasonably successful exclusively because what they showed looked appealing enough. Assuming that "what you show shouldn't matter much because we'll improve everything later" is naive at best. There is a reason if the concept of "vertical slice" exists even for pitching projects to actual publishers.

 

[Darkzone]

Uh, ok? But NO ONE here was arguing about prioritizing graphics above everything else. The argument is that presenting your product in the best possible light and in the most appealing way helps a lot to get funds faster and more reliably.

You are right that the presentation (not graphic) in the right light is very important, but Otherside have failed in this aspect. They have focused on the display of the physics driven game play, but not many people understand this. Their co-op ideas have only complicated this, because survival in an lone environment is difficult with co-op. Overall they have only lived their kickstarter by their past as Looking Glass people, and that is a little bit sad.
They had too focus this kickstarter on the aspect this is a Underworld RPG survival game (without the kickstarter in game exclusives), that has certain tropes (elves, dwarves) and new things will be integrated. And sadly: only in the end they have spoken about new areas and in game things that are interesting. Would they have presented this in the first place, then this kickstarter would have gained more money. The stretch goal of Tracy Hickman should have been handle under the hand and the stretch goals should apply for all tiers. Then nobody would have complained.

A lot of Kickstarters that weren't backed by former glories or current celebrities of game development managed to be reasonably successful exclusively because what they showed looked appealing enough. Assuming that "what you show shouldn't mater much because we'll improve everything later" is naive at best. There is a reason if the concept of "vertical slice" exists even for pitching projects to actual publishers.

Not everybody is a Fargo or former Looking Glass.
Yes this is true, that "what you show shouldn't mater much because we'll improve everything later" is naive at best. One has to be very careful what they show and Otherside has failed concerning this aspect.
They misunderstood the audience for this game, and therefore failed in their conception of the kickstarter. Infinitron is also the same opinion, like we both.

 

[CyberP]

Sorry but that's an implicit joining of my super sweet hype train fanboi club 2015. I mean just because I dug through your posts and found some reasonable criticism of the KS and am admittedly using a weak quote to condemn you forever to hell doesn't negate your fanboish ways. The tags don't lie. Look, just like every other KS project, the codex is going to need its loonies arguing that this game was more than just mediocre to pretty good for what it is. I know the plebes will cry tears of blood when they see Paul Neurath's magnum opus. You're already like 75% there, so can I get a choo choo?

You're typing nonsense. Do not waste any more of my time.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

That money stuff doesn't really matter.

You'll notice that I avoided mentioning the campaign's funding performance in that part of my post. That was on purpose. In my opinion, this Kickstarter was actually reasonably successful.

That's your opinion, and one I don't share.
I would have expected a Kickstarter suggesting the revival of freaking Ultima Underworld, one of the best games of all times, to catch up like fire in a forest. This is a game that, at least on paper, should have got funded in the first day and then it should have annihilated any stretch goal in the first week.
Instead it struggled to match (and then barely pass) a goal that in some case was achieved even by a bunch of no-name developers with their indie projects.

You are right that the presentation (not graphic) in the right light is very important, but Otherside have failed in this aspect. They have focused on the display of the physics driven game play, but not many people understand this.

I think we may have a slight misunderstanding here on how we are wording what's probably the same idea. When I suggested that the game needed a better presentation and more appealing look I wasn't implying it needed top-tier millions-in-production-value shaders or anything like that (not that it would hurt).

For instance you are saying it was a mistake to focus on physics because people can't appreciate that, and can't say I particularly agree. The problem wasn't that they focused on physics, the problem is that the physics didn't look convincing at all. It looked almost something from the pre-Havok era. When the bridge burned or the giant spider fell, it looked like a(n ugly) scripted sequence, not an actual, convincing physics simulation.
A prototype in freaking wireframe with a more... let's say "realistic" physics behavior could have worker better there.

Even when it comes just to aesthetic appeal, that's often not about having a massive budget and the top-of-the-line tech in business, it's more about nailing a charming visual style with enough personality.
I mean, this is a game that was praised to the heavens for its art and yet it's as low tech as you can get these days:



Underworld Ascendant so far was remarkably lacking in this area. In some ways even the original Underworld still looks more interesting and charming when it comes to art direction.

 

[SCO]

I quit being interested in this when i read it was tied in with the Garriot scam, and co-opt just confirms it. I'm not going to play a fucking realtime crawler in singleplayer with co-opt (unless i can leave the other party member chilling in town forever or something). And if it requires multiplayer, unlike D : OS didn't it's a no-go.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I quit being interested in this when i read it was tied in with the Garriot scam.

I thought SotA was a massive bummer for anyone looking for a proper Ultima-like single player RPG, and I'm very bitter with Garriot because of it... But I'm not aware of anything that could qualify it as a scam.
Did I miss some shady development?

 

[SCO]

No it's just hyperbole.

 

[Infinitron]

That's your opinion, and one I don't share.
I would have expected a Kickstarter suggesting the revival of freaking Ultima Underworld, one of the best games of all times, to catch up like fire in a forest.

There is insufficient Kickstarter nostalgia for games from the early 90s. Only games from the late 90s and later have enough nostalgia to earn millions.

Wasteland 2 was a success because Fallout, not Wasteland. Shroud of the Avatar's success was primarily due to the Ultima Online community, not due to the dwindling fandom of the single player Ultima games.

 

[Athelas]

Looking Glass games were late 90's games.

It may be that a Looking Glass Kickstarter is less succesful because unlike isometric games, the LGS games (on the surface) don't look any different from say Skyrim.

 

[Infinitron]

Looking Glass games were late 90's games.

Yeah, but we've already established that they didn't ride those games hard enough. I don't disagree with that, although I also think there are limits to that approach.

However, Tuco mentioned Ultima Underworld specifically.

It may be that a Looking Glass Kickstarter is less succesful because unlike isometric games, the LGS games (on the surface) don't look any different from say Skyrim.

Yeah, there's that too.

 

[Darkzone]

For instance you are saying it was a mistake to focus on physics because people can't appreciate that, and can't say I particularly agree. The problem wasn't that they focused on physics, the problem is that the physics didn't look convincing at all. It looked almost something from the pre-Havok era. When the bridge burned or the giant spider fell, it looked like a(n ugly) scripted sequence, not an actual, convincing physics simulation.
A prototype in freaking wireframe with a more... let's say "realistic" physics behavior could have worker better there.

I agree that the blowing up the bridge is made really bad, and yes it looks scripted, because of the behavior of the single parts. Normally the bridge should swing down to both sides, you know like a suspension bridge. But i think they were more after the show case that you can do such things in their game. Yes a wireframe with real physics would have been better. But i don't know it this would sell. And their second example was also to demonstarte that they want to go to physics and not to scriping. For a work of four months this is bad, if it is the only thing they made. But they had also to learn how Unity3d works. Ok fuck.. i could do this within 2 weeks, so i will not defend them on this thing.

Even when it comes just to aesthetic appeal, that's often not about having a massive budget and the top-of-the-line tech in business, it's more about nailing a charming visual style with enough personality. ...
Underworld Ascendant so far was remarkably lacking in this area. In some ways even the original Underworld still looks more interesting and charming when it comes to art direction.

Yes but they just have begun, with the art and everything. Others make the art and design for them, and the drawn pictures are not bad.
I have shown you The Long Dark (currently my favorite kickstarter that makes me proud of supporting it), they had the vision from the beginning and they have shown it to the people and still they only got 250k.

Btw.: Garriott with double t.

 

[GlutenBurger]

The crown is really the fucking pets, this is content that is digital, it cost only a copy and paste, but still Otherside want to give it only to the people who pledged $75 and more. I hate pets in games, and i never play with them.
But to treat other people who perhaps do not have so much money (yes like you polacks) and still have pledged to this project, like shit, is a no go for me.

Just wait until the shitstorm when the game is released, and it turns out $75 pledgers have to pay extra if they want both pets, or that anybody can buy the game plus both DLC pets at total a price that works out less than $75.

 

[Zombra]

Just wait until the shitstorm when the game is released, and it turns out $75 pledgers have to pay extra if they want both pets, or that anybody can buy the game plus both DLC pets at total a price that works out less than $75.

Oh yes. The "anything for a buck" approach they've used leaves me pretty confident that I'll be able to get the "Sleazebag Edition", with all the frills thrown in, for pretty close to my original pledge, not too long after release. That's if reviews are good.

 

[Darkzone]

The crown is really the fucking pets, this is content that is digital, it cost only a copy and paste, but still Otherside want to give it only to the people who pledged $75 and more. I hate pets in games, and i never play with them.
But to treat other people who perhaps do not have so much money (yes like you polacks) and still have pledged to this project, like shit, is a no go for me.

Just wait until the shitstorm when the game is released, and it turns out $75 pledgers have to pay extra if they want both pets, or that anybody can buy the game plus both DLC pets at total a price that works out less than $75.

This is already in that they receive only one pet from this two, and yes probably the pets will be for $5 the piece dlc, like the Bertha thing.

Just wait until the shitstorm when the game is released, and it turns out $75 pledgers have to pay extra if they want both pets, or that anybody can buy the game plus both DLC pets at total a price that works out less than $75.

Oh yes. The "anything for a buck" approach they've used leaves me pretty confident that I'll be able to get the "sleazebag edition", with all the frills thrown in, for pretty close to my original pledge, not too long after release. That's if reviews are good.

$30 on steam or gog + $10 pet dlc on release day, and on summer sale 2017 it will be $10 + $10 pet dlc.
Please forgive me, that i have still pledged for the $35 Journeyman tier after their actions, but i need to see and evaluate the beta (from the technical standpoint). I feel guilty towards you, and i know it is my money and my responsibility, and i have no obligations towards you. But still, there is this principle..

 

[Infinitron]

Divinity's Kickstarter DLC costs 10 bucks: http://store.steampowered.com/app/230230/

IIRC Larian ended up giving pretty much all of the KS exclusives to all backers (originally they were tiered just like Underworld). I'm hoping Underworld does the same.