KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

[Bubbles]

Most of the negative comments are about graphics, so that's probably the biggest problem:

- In case you haven't noticed, you do *not* have such an unblemished record with regards to graphics: While Ultima Underworld 1/2 and System Shock 1 were way ahead of their time, Arx Fatalis and System Shock 2 were clearly *not* when they came out (I remember vividly how dissapointed I was when seeing SS 2 for the first time).

- Any chance of something like a side by side comparison shot of X scene from the pitch vs what it's actually envisioned to look like in the final product (even if it's not exactly 100% spot on)? I'm not sure how feasible that is as I don't know how these sorts of things done (I'm only a customer, never made a game in my life but I think it could increase confidence in anyone considering pledging etc and give them at least a rough idea of what the game they want to pay for should eventually look like

- Even though I know that it has been stated that the graphics are going to be far better in the final product, it's really the sizzle that sells. After seeing so many flashy pitches and previews for games (KS and Mainstream), the graphics in this pitch are really quite underwhelming. Don't get me wrong though, the updates and the info make the game look fantastic, but in the back of my mind there's a voice saying (yeah, but anyone can make promises, where's the proof)

@Tim Stellmach(I'd like to individually thank all 9,744 of you): Don't thank us - give us a better-graphics-video !

And that's just the last 12 hours. The knives are coming out.

Some of the backers are starting to wonder why they have had so much less success than Star Citizen:

True, the space shooter genre is somewhat underserved, but those people ARE playing EVE, so it isn't exactly barren. Also, pure-play dungeon crawlers aren't exactly falling from heaven right now. And people are chomping at the bit for RPG stuff, what with Skyrim and GOT, LOTR, D&D, etc. It should be an easy sale:
At Otherside, we are the first to make the dungeon REAL.

On the positive side, the devs are still announcing new features:

Regarding controls: We did the console ports of several first-person action games back when I was at Vicarious Visions (two of which, Jedi Academy and Doom 3, I was on the team). I know a lot of people prefer mouse and keyboard, but I'm also comfortable that gamepad control for such games can also be done well. Not promising it off the cuff, but it's not particularly daunting either.

 

[Melan]

So, what is your guys reasoning as to why this KS isn't doing better? It's a pretty safe bet that they're going to make their baseline, but even the first stretch goal is far from guaranteed.
From what I saw, the REAL funding goal is usually to hit a considerable amount of stretchgoals ... let's face it, 600k isn't a whole lot of money to make a game with in 2015.

Otherside staff have confirmed they have funding from other sources, and the KS is on top of that. Doesn't change that it wasn't managed very well, and didn't explain the game's potential strengths all too well. With the last-day surge, they will hit the baseline and probably the first stretch goal, but I'd be really surprised if it went above 750-800k.

Most of the negative comments are about graphics, so that's probably the biggest problem:

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Low funding, low-fi graphics.

The Looking Glass Studios Curse strikes, again.

 

[Infinitron]

That mg (AoUA++) guy is an annoying git

 

[Darkzone]

rezaf
At the beginning you have around 10-15 min time to edit your post. Later this restriction drops (certainly after 1 year).

Othersides kickstarter problmes:
1) Graphics / Unity3d problem. Reason: People are stupid, because they believe that an early prototype is the end graphic of the game.
2) Few remember UU 1 - 2 or Looking Glass Studios. Reason: People are stupid, because they cannot remember crucial points of game history.
3) Not recognizing teams brain power. Reason: People are stupid, because they do not look into history of team members, like Tim.
4) KS loves isometric or even 2d games. Reason: People are stupid, because they do not appreciate other forms in a specific form of entertainment.
5) Not recognised possibilities of UA. Reason: People are stupid, because they cannot think ahead and beyond their limited cognitive scope.
6) Otherside has not learend enough from the bad ks with mixed messages and good ks with a clear message like Torment, D:OS and the SR:HK.

So in other words:
People are stupid or Otherside has to send a better understood message at the beginning (crucial point of every ks) of their ks. Also to time the ks better is very important and that is where they failed in my opinion, because SR:HK has stolen the show form them.

 

[Gord]

Most of the negative comments are about graphics, so that's probably the biggest problem:

Honestly I think those people are a lost cause anyway.
The first guy in your quote in particular sounds as if he expects AAA GOTY Crysis-killer graphics and it has been obvious right away that this won't happen.

They have decided to include some very early scenes that are barely more than proof-of-concept in their kickstarter rather than having nothing to show at all, but it's an interesting question whether their early-prototype WIP graphics might have done more harm than good.

Graphics aside, this KS does also sound rather risky. The target audience has become very cautious with the kind of promises they make.

 

[Darkzone]

Graphics aside, this KS does also sound rather risky. The target audience has become very cautious with the kind of promises they make.

Which are?

 

[rezaf]

At the beginning you have around 10-15 min time to edit your post. Later this restriction drops (certainly after 1 year).

That makes sense, thanks for explaining.

 

[Xenich]

On the positive side, the devs are still announcing new features:

Regarding controls: We did the console ports of several first-person action games back when I was at Vicarious Visions (two of which, Jedi Academy and Doom 3, I was on the team). I know a lot of people prefer mouse and keyboard, but I'm also comfortable that gamepad control for such games can also be done well. Not promising it off the cuff, but it's not particularly daunting either.

Nothing positive about that comment.

 

[Sonus]

You sure? What do you want?

 

[Infinitron]

UPDATE: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/othersidegames/underworld-ascendant/posts/1146641

Random stuff.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

I think the main issue is probably that all the successful RPGs in recent times were either isometric turn-based/rtwp party-based games or blobbers. People were absolutely starved for these kind of games. Now this is a free movement 3D action-y game and thats something completely different and it may just be that the demand for this is simply lower. When games like W2 or LoG (I know, no KS) were announced people flipped their shit because they hadn't seen anything like that in ages. This game on the other hand just looks like most modern games do only with shittier graphics. They know this is an issue if they want to attract a larger crowd, hence all the abstract talk about game design philosophy and how unique UU and Thief were and so on. They are trying to emphasize that this game is going to play completely different from your typical modern 3D RPG.. because they know it certainly doesn't look completely different.

 

[Zetor]

Have they tried reaching out to the Dark Souls fandom? (people who play DS on PC, natch)

 

[vorvek]

On the positive side, the devs are still announcing new features:

Regarding controls: We did the console ports of several first-person action games back when I was at Vicarious Visions (two of which, Jedi Academy and Doom 3, I was on the team). I know a lot of people prefer mouse and keyboard, but I'm also comfortable that gamepad control for such games can also be done well. Not promising it off the cuff, but it's not particularly daunting either.

Nothing positive about that comment.

Agree. Anything other than HJKL based controls means decline and should be frowned upon.

 

[CyberP]

This is bullshit. I've longed for a revival of LGS more than anything from this shitty industry...

 

[Whiran]

Anyway, what's your guys take on why this one is struggling?

I've back a few RPGs on Kickstarter but I have not backed this one nor will I.

My reasoning is as follows:

1st, there is nothing "special" in this kickstarter that grabs my attention. Everything about the pitch makes this sound like some bland and generic dungeon crawler.
2nd, kickstarter suspicion: I am suspicious of all game pitches that ask for very little (comparatively) money on Kickstarter. They have 15 people on their team for this project. The development time will take at least two years. It costs at least ~10,000 USD / month (for the company if they are paying 50k / year) per employee in the USA for barely to semi-experienced game developers. 15 * $10,000 = $150,000 a month in salaries. Add to that operational costs, facilities, licenses, technology, etc and their 600k would cover less than 4 months of operation. In other words, their kickstarter amount is total BS or they don't have a grasp on basic business concepts. If they have enough funding from other sources WHY are they using kickstarter? That's shady.
3rd, Weakness / exaggerations in their claims such as calling Unity Engine 5 "cutting edge graphics"....

At the end of the day I wouldn't be upset if this game did not get made by this team. My expectation of the final result is lower than what my expectation of Wasteland 2 was (which was for inXile to deliver an okay RPG which is what inXile did deliver - an okay RPG).

If this game is made and turns out to be awesome I will happily buy it and play it then. In the meantime I have very little confidence in the team, the project, or the kickstarter campaign.

 

[Korron]

Your opinion man.

Fair enough. Everyone has their own threshold for pain. I'll argue $20 is worth the entry price even if it is to watch Paul Neurath forever tarnish the rose colored image of devs from the good old days. Hell if it fails I can express all the moral outrage of one of them there entitled gamers that is now forever losing out on a few bags of Doritos and Mountain Dew.

Seriously though I think KS needs to be pushed to the boundaries. If it's not sustainable then let's find out. I've seen enough incline, even if small, to make me want to keep supporting projects. 600k is not enough, but I do wonder who the external funding is from. It may be someone that has more reverence for LGS than sense, and not necessarily a publisher.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

So $541k with 8 days to go. But still expecting a massive spike when the Codex politburo finally unleash mindx2's report.

 

[Gord]

Graphics aside, this KS does also sound rather risky. The target audience has become very cautious with the kind of promises they make.

Which are?

Basically everything about dynamic factions or their improvisation engine. Also the claims about a world that feels real and alive.
All of that has been done to death as ultimately nothing but empty marketing buzzwords by the industry over the last decade.
Citing industry veterans as a guarantee that it will result in something great. Gee, where have we seen that before?

Mind, I've backed them despite my doubts about their ability to deliver their promises. I loved the Underworlds, they are amongst the first cRPGs I ever played extensively and the hope to see something new in that vein, potentially even improving upon the old formula is worth it to me. But I can understand those people who don't want to take that risk.

 

[Infinitron]

Basically everything about dynamic factions or their improvisation engine. Also the claims about a world that feels real and alive.

Like I said earlier ITT, these things seem far-fetched to somebody versed in the language of heavily scripted/content-intensive isometric games. But then you look at Steam and notice there are indie low-budget physics-based sandbox first person games everywhere. What happens when Tim Stellmach and a bunch of other industry veterans make one of those? I guess we'll find out.

 

[Blackstaff]

I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the funding came from Garriot himself. After all, they are using its universe for the game. So I'm not that reluctant to trust them on the funding front, they seem like qualified professional enough...

What I'm reluctant to believe in is this co-op bullcrap. They flat out said that others multiplayers features were planned in future stretch goal after 1,2M. I smell MMO bullshit at the work here. And, if star citizen, and shroud of the avatar are any proof, there is a high probability they will pursue somekind of ongoing crowdfunding effort after the KS and during the development, with glowing pink ring and bunny purple familiar shit to go on for the tards.

Yeah, yeah, your co-op/persistant/MMO world shoehorn is coming

 

[Gord]

Like I said earlier ITT, these things seem far-fetched to somebody versed in the language of heavily scripted/content-intensive isometric games.

To some extend, yes. But it's not really what I mean.
Take e.g. Bethesda games: they certainly offer more emergent gameplay and freedom than most other AAA games, and with every new release we hear a lot of lies Toddspeak about how RadiantAI this and dynamic world that. Yet when the game is out, half the stuff is missing and the rest is usually very much scaled down from what they were describing earlier.

Now here we have people with a very different track record promising those things and the chances look much better that they will manage. But we have every reason to be sceptical about it.

 

[Darkzone]

Basically everything about dynamic factions or their improvisation engine. Also the claims about a world that feels real and alive.

They want to make a world that reacts due to an 'world' engine running in the background, that checks states of certain things in the UA. This approach is basically not very new, but was in that way never made in a game, because the game development has gone more into the film direction. Real is overvalued and underspecified, but alive is a different kind of shoes. Something becomes alive if it changes, if parts of the world like vegetation and animals change, then they have reached their target. Put here for further real and alive:

Like I said earlier ITT, these things seem far-fetched to somebody versed in the language of heavily scripted/content-intensive isometric games. But then you look at Steam and notice there are indie low-budget physics-based sandbox first person games everywhere. What happens when Tim Stellmach and a bunch of other industry veterans make one of those? I guess we'll find out.

Tim is capable enough to pull this off. I have asked specific questions that have targeted the alive aspect concerning the environment of UA, and he answered this questions very very good.
Factions will require some knowlege and reputation graphs and big state machines (somehow i missed this in W2 ), but for them this should be a piece of cake.

All of that has been done to death as ultimately nothing but empty marketing buzzwords by the industry over the last decade. Citing industry veterans as a guarantee that it will result in something great. Gee, where have we seen that before?

Yes i also don't like their approach to marketing. But they are not like Sunnyboy Fargo the Snake Oil salesman. They are engineers, so marketing failure is a certain thing.

Mind, I've backed them despite my doubts about their ability to deliver their promises. I loved the Underworlds, they are amongst the first cRPGs I ever played extensively and the hope to see something new in that vein, potentially even improving upon the old formula is worth it to me. But I can understand those people who don't want to take that risk.

Very good, trust me just this once: You will be not disappointed, perhaps it will even blow your mind.

Edit:

...and with every new release we hear a lot of lies Toddspeak about how RadiantAI this and dynamic world that. Yet when the game is out, half the stuff is missing and the rest is usually very much scaled down from what they were describing earlier.

Bethesda tries to script everything and make a very big world, while UA will be not big. The scripting solution results in a lot of work, and you can loose the oversight over the project. If you make it more based on states and formulas you save a lot of work and you do not need a skript for every state, the problems are in the stability. And explicit that was one of my questions, that has been directly addressed by Tim.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Divinity Original Sin asked for only 400.000. The kickstarter was successful, but not anything close to what wasteland 2, torment, broken age, pillars of eternity, etc. 600.000 is a reasonable amount to ask.

 

[Xenich]

Divinity Original Sin asked for only 400.000. The kickstarter was successful, but not anything close to what wasteland 2, torment, broken age, pillars of eternity, etc. 600.000 is a reasonable amount to ask.

D:OS was 90% finished when they went to KS where they specifically stated that they were not asking for the game to be made, that it was already nearly finished, rather it was money to spend time fleshing out the content in the game that would otherwise not exist without the KS. So I think there is a bit of difference here in that.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Yes, i'm aware they had a lot of the game features sorted out, and at the time, they were an already stabilished company. But 90%? no way.