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Moonspeak Undertale - friendship/genocide RPG

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
top pleb, tbqh

Does the truth hurt so much?

It's a completely optional and discouraged secret ending/path obtained by grinding. The recommended pacifist path features very good gameplay for an RPG, and requires you to NOT grind. Why are you so salty?

:lol: I guess it does.
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
3,548
Combat, on the other hand, is pure form over function, an indie version of what you see in AAA action-adventures ala Assassin's Creed or Witcher 3 - it looks nice and lets the designer show off their cleverness, but is kinda shit to actually play. Grand majority of it is easy to the point of being boring, and the somewhat challenging parts are only so because they involve weird gimmicks or are just cheap memo trash. Also weird hitboxes and a plethora or similar problems indicative of "I'm going to design a shmup in spite of having no clue about shmups" on the designer's part.
I disagree with that part, you play too much Cave shmups, of course Undertale'shmups are too easy/not perfect enough for you :). But they're functional at representing the enemy's behaviour, nothing to compare with any AAA combat's stupidity here.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Combat, on the other hand, is pure form over function, an indie version of what you see in AAA action-adventures ala Assassin's Creed or Witcher 3 - it looks nice and lets the designer show off their cleverness, but is kinda shit to actually play. Grand majority of it is easy to the point of being boring, and the somewhat challenging parts are only so because they involve weird gimmicks or are just cheap memo trash. Also weird hitboxes and a plethora or similar problems indicative of "I'm going to design a shmup in spite of having no clue about shmups" on the designer's part.
I disagree with that part, you play too much Cave shmups, of course Undertale'shmups are too easy/not perfect enough for you :). But they're functional at representing the enemy's behaviour, nothing to compare with any AAA combat's stupidity here.


I'm not comparing Undertale to arcade shmups in general, since the strengths of the latter generally lie in their stage design, which Undertale simply doesn't have. I do think, however, that Touhou is a valid point of comparison, the single-scene games like Shoot the Bullet or Double Spoiler in particular; and the comparison is further validated in that ZUN's bullet patterns aim to express a certain character theme as well. And generally speaking, Touhou bullet patterns are much more fun to actually dodge, even on lower difficulties. I'd also argue that Toby Fox often goes the very lazy route of just using an unusual bullet sprite, but not doing anything interesting with the pattern irself - look at the flexing seahorse as an example, there's nothing there save for bullets in the shape of flexing biceps.

And yes, I actually think Undertale's combat is comparable to, say, Witcher 3's, in their respective frames of reference. They both look cool and prioritize being "thematic" over playing well. And as a result, they're both mediocre both mechanically and in terms of encounter design.

Finally, easy does not equal boring. I 1ccd Batsugun Special Version (a famously easy arcade shmup) on my second credit ever, but it was still much more fun than the majority of Undertale.
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
top pleb, tbqh

Does the truth hurt so much?

It's a completely optional and discouraged secret ending/path obtained by grinding. The recommended pacifist path features very good gameplay for an RPG, and requires you to NOT grind. Why are you so salty?

:lol: I guess it does.

No, I just didn't feel like justifying your response with a real one.

Out of curiosity, since you are a 2hoefag, why do you think the hitboxes are weird? I've never experienced anything like that. Did you really think that the Muffet and Asgore battles were weak? I thought they were pretty fun and well designed tbqh.

Also - go play the genocide route, you'll probably like the final boss there (or just use a savefile editor to warp you there since you'll complain about the grinding to get to him)
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,980
As a shmup dabbler, can confirm, genocide exclusive bosses were pretty fun, especially that one. I can see why you'd get bored with all the normal boss fights as fights, they're mostly there as vehicles for dialogue and interaction.
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
Something worth mentioning is that Toby is a bit of a shmupfag himself. In fact, that's likely why he was able to strike such a balance with the normal mode, making it easy enough that almost anyone can finish it, while making some fights fairly challenging for complete plebs. (There are, non-ironically, people online who cannot defeat Asgore / Flowey)

On the flip side, the two big genocide bosses, especially the last one, probably the best boss of 2015. Not that that's saying much since all it has to compete with is Bloodborne, and BB was really missing super good bosses.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
No, I just didn't feel like justifying your response with a real one.

Out of curiosity, since you are a 2hoefag, why do you think the hitboxes are weird? I've never experienced anything like that. Did you really think that the Muffet and Asgore battles were weak? I thought they were pretty fun and well designed tbqh.

Also - go play the genocide route, you'll probably like the final boss there (or just use a savefile editor to warp you there since you'll complain about the grinding to get to him)

The boss battles in general were allright, and definitely the best the game's combat had to offer, especially after I decided not to use consumables. I generally don't count stuff that plays a lot different from a shmup (sidescrolling segments vs Papyrus, bullet blocking vs Undyne, line hopping vs Muffet) in my assessment of bullet patterns and the like, but those elements were generally rather well done, if simple. It's mostly the generic random encounter combat that I found dull as dishwater. The boss fights also have pacing problems - they start off really easy and slowly ramp up, which means you spend the first half twiddling your thumbs, waiting for things to do. This idea of "ramping up" an attack is relatively common amongst bullet hell shmups, but in Undertale it just takes too long imo.

I could elaborate further on why I found the general mechanics to be lacking if you're curious. For hitboxes specifically, there's just no consistency in how big they are vs the sprites. Papyrus' bone endings seem to have no hitboxes, and neither do the "hands" Asgore uses to place bullets, but for other elaborate shapes, like the dog anvils, it seems like sprite = hitbox. I could swear that Asgore's small bullets have hitboxes larger than the sprite, but it's hard to know without per-frame analysis. If you want me to, I can compile a proper list during my next playthrough.
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
3,548
The boss battles in general were allright, and definitely the best the game's combat had to offer, especially after I decided not to use consumables. I generally don't count stuff that plays a lot different from a shmup (sidescrolling segments vs Papyrus, bullet blocking vs Undyne, line hopping vs Muffet) in my assessment of bullet patterns and the like, but those elements were generally rather well done, if simple. It's mostly the generic random encounter combat that I found dull as dishwater.
:thumbsup:
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
No, I just didn't feel like justifying your response with a real one.

Out of curiosity, since you are a 2hoefag, why do you think the hitboxes are weird? I've never experienced anything like that. Did you really think that the Muffet and Asgore battles were weak? I thought they were pretty fun and well designed tbqh.

Also - go play the genocide route, you'll probably like the final boss there (or just use a savefile editor to warp you there since you'll complain about the grinding to get to him)

The boss battles in general were allright, and definitely the best the game's combat had to offer, especially after I decided not to use consumables. I generally don't count stuff that plays a lot different from a shmup (sidescrolling segments vs Papyrus, bullet blocking vs Undyne, line hopping vs Muffet) in my assessment of bullet patterns and the like, but those elements were generally rather well done, if simple. It's mostly the generic random encounter combat that I found dull as dishwater. The boss fights also have pacing problems - they start off really easy and slowly ramp up, which means you spend the first half twiddling your thumbs, waiting for things to do. This idea of "ramping up" an attack is relatively common amongst bullet hell shmups, but in Undertale it just takes too long imo.

I could elaborate further on why I found the general mechanics to be lacking if you're curious. For hitboxes specifically, there's just no consistency in how big they are vs the sprites. Papyrus' bone endings seem to have no hitboxes, and neither do the "hands" Asgore uses to place bullets, but for other elaborate shapes, like the dog anvils, it seems like sprite = hitbox. I could swear that Asgore's small bullets have hitboxes larger than the sprite, but it's hard to know without per-frame analysis. If you want me to, I can compile a proper list during my next playthrough.

Here you go - someone made a fangame that's literally just a boss battle - ignore the dialogue/writing though, shit is bad as fuck

https://mega.nz/#!bEBVBKzR!4ALx2Y8ixaFXd-kDXhazJsSezSG4u3qZcrfEoeaFutY
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
No, I just didn't feel like justifying your response with a real one.

Out of curiosity, since you are a 2hoefag, why do you think the hitboxes are weird? I've never experienced anything like that. Did you really think that the Muffet and Asgore battles were weak? I thought they were pretty fun and well designed tbqh.

Also - go play the genocide route, you'll probably like the final boss there (or just use a savefile editor to warp you there since you'll complain about the grinding to get to him)

The boss battles in general were allright, and definitely the best the game's combat had to offer, especially after I decided not to use consumables. I generally don't count stuff that plays a lot different from a shmup (sidescrolling segments vs Papyrus, bullet blocking vs Undyne, line hopping vs Muffet) in my assessment of bullet patterns and the like, but those elements were generally rather well done, if simple. It's mostly the generic random encounter combat that I found dull as dishwater. The boss fights also have pacing problems - they start off really easy and slowly ramp up, which means you spend the first half twiddling your thumbs, waiting for things to do. This idea of "ramping up" an attack is relatively common amongst bullet hell shmups, but in Undertale it just takes too long imo.

I could elaborate further on why I found the general mechanics to be lacking if you're curious. For hitboxes specifically, there's just no consistency in how big they are vs the sprites. Papyrus' bone endings seem to have no hitboxes, and neither do the "hands" Asgore uses to place bullets, but for other elaborate shapes, like the dog anvils, it seems like sprite = hitbox. I could swear that Asgore's small bullets have hitboxes larger than the sprite, but it's hard to know without per-frame analysis. If you want me to, I can compile a proper list during my next playthrough.

Here you go - someone made a fangame that's literally just a boss battle - ignore the dialogue/writing though, shit is bad as fuck

https://mega.nz/#!bEBVBKzR!4ALx2Y8ixaFXd-kDXhazJsSezSG4u3qZcrfEoeaFutY

But... I actually like the writing in Undertale itself. It's just the gameplay that I find underwhelming. Anyway, thanks, but I've seen Jaimers91 upload a video of a no-hit run of that game, and it seems competently made, but nothing mind-blowing. If I cared about gameplay, I'd probably play Double Spoiler instead, and I don't particularly like that game to begin with.

As is, I play Undertale to relax and heal from the extreme damage Crimzon Clover does to my butt. It also helps that the true pacifist run is pretty fast if you skip talking to everyone and interacting with everything.
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
4
This game isn't so much an rpg as it is covered with the trappings of one.
The shading on the PC's sprite is different from monsters in the overworld, which is different from the shading of the backgrounds.
This is game looks like a smackjeeves comic circa 2006 turned into a game.

And the plot is riddled with holes. 7/10
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
It really isn't an RPG though. Only reason it has any stats or levelling at all is to make a point about player behaviour.
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
This game isn't so much an rpg as it is covered with the trappings of one.
The shading on the PC's sprite is different from monsters in the overworld, which is different from the shading of the backgrounds.
This is game looks like a smackjeeves comic circa 2006 turned into a game.

And the plot is riddled with holes. 7/10

Omega top pleb
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
4
This game isn't so much an rpg as it is covered with the trappings of one.
The shading on the PC's sprite is different from monsters in the overworld, which is different from the shading of the backgrounds.
This is game looks like a smackjeeves comic circa 2006 turned into a game.

And the plot is riddled with holes. 7/10

Omega top pleb
And the gameplay is babby's first bullet hell.
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
This game isn't so much an rpg as it is covered with the trappings of one.
The shading on the PC's sprite is different from monsters in the overworld, which is different from the shading of the backgrounds.
This is game looks like a smackjeeves comic circa 2006 turned into a game.

And the plot is riddled with holes. 7/10

Omega top pleb
And the gameplay is babby's first bullet hell.

:shittydog::shittydog::shittydog: plebbing intensifies. stay salty, i'll bring some fries for your next post :shittydog::shittydog::shittydog:
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
4
This game isn't so much an rpg as it is covered with the trappings of one.
The shading on the PC's sprite is different from monsters in the overworld, which is different from the shading of the backgrounds.
This is game looks like a smackjeeves comic circa 2006 turned into a game.

And the plot is riddled with holes. 7/10

Omega top pleb
And the gameplay is babby's first bullet hell.

:shittydog::shittydog::shittydog: plebbing intensifies. stay salty, i'll bring some fries for your next post :shittydog::shittydog::shittydog:
Salty? I don't even hate the game. I said it was a 7/10.


It's not bullet hell ffs.
No, it isn't. But The combat resembles a mix of that and WarioWare's microgames. Better description?
 

Siveon

Bot
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
4,509
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It's not bullet hell ffs.
I'd agree with you there. The fact that you don't usually shoot back and the hitbox isn't as strict makes it much less of a bullet hell and more of a bullet hell-inspired mini-game thing. Sort of like how Legend of Legaia isn't a fighter just because it has combos. If Toby ever had thoughts about a sequel, I would say his first choice would be making the mini-game more fleshed out, and perhaps add more elements from a bullet hell.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
It's not bullet hell ffs.
I'd agree with you there. The fact that you don't usually shoot back and the hitbox isn't as strict makes it much less of a bullet hell and more of a bullet hell-inspired mini-game thing. Sort of like how Legend of Legaia isn't a fighter just because it has combos. If Toby ever had thoughts about a sequel, I would say his first choice would be making the mini-game more fleshed out, and perhaps add more elements from a bullet hell.

But... that's not why. Whether you shoot back or not is irrelevant, and the hitboxes in actual bullet hell shmups are much more lenient than they are in Undertale. The shmup elements are, design-wise, much closer to more old-school shmups. One wonders how is it that so many people apparently think Undertale has bullet hell elements despite clearly not having played a single bullet hell shmup in their life. Kinda reminds me of those people who think IE games have turn-based combat.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,980
I think it's because the old school style of shmups have become so rare at this point most people equate all shmups with bullet hell.
 

Siveon

Bot
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
4,509
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Pretty much. Even when I played games like Gradius in the past, I still just associate it with the term bullet hell, even when bullet hell is just a subgenre.

My bad. :P
 

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