Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Underrail vs Age of Decadence

Tito Anic

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
1,679
Location
Magalan
The AI in Underrail is pretty bad. You can use kiting everytime you want to heal, come back to kill another one, etc. The enemies are completely dumb, clueless.

Zone reentering is a chance for not enough strong players to win unwinable fights. There are people who do not like save scumm to win fight or to get initiative on their side.

Because it's the guy who is shouting "BUUURNS" thrown grenade into me while he and his own 3 people were still alive. He killed himself, 2 of his own, and wounded 4th.

:lol: But it is good for you. Are there no such situations in the real world?

j5YiTK7.jpg
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
Because it's the guy who is shouting "BUUURNS" thrown grenade into me while he and his own 3 people were still alive. He killed himself, 2 of his own, and wounded 4th.
But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?

During the battle with the raiders at the bottom of GMS I could consistently get the raider leader to throw a grenade at my feet in melee range, killing himself and leaving me severely wounded. It's an AI issue.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Because it's the guy who is shouting "BUUURNS" thrown grenade into me while he and his own 3 people were still alive. He killed himself, 2 of his own, and wounded 4th.
But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?
66386708.jpg


Seems like an oversight in combat behavior patterns to me. Did you play a stealthed char by any chance and came out of cover in the middle of the enemy group, Shadenuat ?
Because I can't remember this happening to my a lot less sneaky Juggernaut.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?
If he used grenade, that means AI doesn't have a precaution against throwing explosives at player if there are his allies at adjacent tiles.

Did you play a stealthed char by any chance and came out of cover in the middle of the enemy group?
No it was 2d turn I think.
 

Mystary!

Arcane
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Holmia
But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?
If he used grenade, that means AI doesn't have a precaution against throwing explosives at player if there are his allies at adjacent tiles.
There is thou. Theres been plenty of times when I've been bombarded with grenades as soon as an enemy ally that is standing close to me dies.
They had grenades, but didn't use them until it was safe to do so.
Perhaps some just have different behaviors.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Because it's the guy who is shouting "BUUURNS" thrown grenade into me while he and his own 3 people were still alive. He killed himself, 2 of his own, and wounded 4th.
But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?

That is exactly what I wanted to know since this would be the first time for me seeing it. Does still not change the fact that UR AI is better than derpI of BG 2. Of course the AI still has a lot of holes but whatever. At least grunts can do more than "CHAAAARGE" like in BG 2.

But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?
If he used grenade, that means AI doesn't have a precaution against throwing explosives at player if there are his allies at adjacent tiles.

Did you play a stealthed char by any chance and came out of cover in the middle of the enemy group?
No it was 2d turn I think.

As I said never happened to me so far and I am on my 4th playthough now. There were some fumbles but they happen to you as well so it is fair.
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,878
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
Yep, that. It's actually pretty amusing how the levels in the game are structured in a very Adventure-like fashion, i.e. as collections of separate scenes with space in-between serving little purpose. Explains all the teleporting that was in the early versions as it would be a very natural thing in an Adventure game.

There was a lot of experimenting due to development constrains, especially since at points the only reliable tool we had was the dialogue editor. Now that we have a more stable development cycle, we are moving towards more enviromental interaction, including a "turn-based" sneak system in the Colony Ship Game (at least that's the idea). In the next AoD update, we are adding "thieving opportunities", in which lockpick, sneak, steal and traps are done via point and click, stealing from inns and some houses.
 

likaq

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,198
There was a lot of experimenting due to development constrains, especially since at points the only reliable tool we had was the dialogue editor. Now that we have a more stable development cycle, we are moving towards more enviromental interaction, including a "turn-based" sneak system in the Colony Ship Game (at least that's the idea). In the next AoD update, we are adding "thieving opportunities", in which lockpick, sneak, steal and traps are done via point and click, stealing from inns and some houses.

:bounce::bounce::bounce:
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
There was a lot of experimenting due to development constrains, especially since at points the only reliable tool we had was the dialogue editor.
Oh. That does explain a lot.
Now that we have a more stable development cycle, we are moving towards more enviromental interaction, including a "turn-based" sneak system in the Colony Ship Game (at least that's the idea). In the next AoD update, we are adding "thieving opportunities", in which lockpick, sneak, steal and traps are done via point and click, stealing from inns and some houses.
:salute:
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Because it's the guy who is shouting "BUUURNS" thrown grenade into me while he and his own 3 people were still alive. He killed himself, 2 of his own, and wounded 4th.
But that's what my mage with 90% accuracy would do too. My question is: did the AI aim the grenade at the entire group, or did it aim at your character and fumble the throw?

Because the way people are positioned in that screenshot it's not possible to hit the character and not his own allies.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
I've read on a few threads that combat in Underrail is too easy due to 'kiting'. Is everyone who talks about this 'kiting' in the sense that Lurker King is? As in exploiting the game by leaving the area, healing up and coming back?

I always thought that they were talking about kiting enemies without exiting combat by using crowd control techniques. I assume some of people here probably are....

But FFS, if you're exploiting the game in order to win fights, the combat is not "too easy" for you. It is too hard and that's why you are resorting to exploits. Ideally the game would not be exploitable but the fact that you can cheese doesn't mean that you have to cheese out on every fight.

Not to say there isn't a point in the game where combat becomes pretty easy.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
if you're exploiting the game in order to win fights, the combat is not "too easy" for you. It is too hard and that's why you are resorting to exploits
If you exploit then it means designer left an exploit. It may be bug but it may be that some weapon or skill are too powerful. If I find that killing enemies using Stealth is almost in the realm of exploiting, who failed - me for picking skill I wanted or designer who designed the skill to pick?
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
I always thought that they were talking about kiting enemies without exiting combat by using crowd control techniques. I assume some of people here probably are....

You can do both.

But FFS, if you're exploiting the game in order to win fights, the combat is not "too easy" for you. It is too hard and that's why you are resorting to exploits.

Or maybe it's because you are just trying to see if you can exploit the design failures to beat a fight that should be impossible due to your present level. That it’s no way around this, none. This is like arguing that BG2 players who use rest all the time are weak players. How about complaining about the developers that willingly implemented this feature? If you have this feature that will give you an edge, why wouldn’t you use? This is like playing hide and seek with x-ray vision, but arguing that you should pretend that you shouldn’t use it, because it’s unfair.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
if you're exploiting the game in order to win fights, the combat is not "too easy" for you. It is too hard and that's why you are resorting to exploits
If you exploit then it means designer left an exploit. It may be bug but it may be that some weapon or skill are too powerful. If I find that killing enemies using Stealth is almost in the realm of exploiting, who failed - me for picking skill I wanted or designer who designed the skill to pick?

IMO, some skills being OP is much different than using exploits like save scumming during combat or fleeing and returning. I personally don't understand why people do cheesy shit that isn't fun and then complain "This game is no fun because I cheese my way through it".

Most games are pretty liberal with saving because limited saves is aggravating for players who have other shit to do in their lives. Most people like to be able to save and leave the game on short notice without losing progress. Does this create an opportunity for people with a lot of time on their hands to exploit? Yes. Does any game automatically suck because some people like to cheese? No. If you hate save scumming don't do it.

Same thing with fleeing. The game is giving you the option to flee if you've started a fight you can't win. Allows players to explore without having to reload and lose progress as much. Is it exploitable? Of course. Do you have to us this exploit if its not fun? No. And if you can't control yourself that isn't necessarily a black mark against the game. Would the game be better and more "realistic" if you couldn't leave areas during a fight? I don't think so.

If you're talking about real bugs then yes, games shouldn't have bugs. And if you're a player that likes using stealth and using stealth makes the game too easy then that is a legitimate complaint. But don't tell me "This games sucks. Every time I play I punch myself in the nuts repeatedly and it really hurts!". Try not punching yourself in the nuts.

Also Lurker King: This rant was not specifically directed at you. But to address your "X-ray" vision analogy: In this case it would be the person using X-ray vision saying "Hide and seek is a flawed game because every time I play I use my X-ray vision goggles and its too easy". It not unreasonable to ask such a person "Have you tried playing without the goggles?"
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Same thing with fleeing. The game is giving you the option to flee if you've started a fight you can't win.
That's not what game does, at least that is not all of it. Game allows you to pick enemies one by one or even hurt them and then flee and hurt them again. When you flee, heal and return, your AoEs would still be up, enemies would be hurt, and their numbers won't replenish. It's not "second chance". They don't even heal themselves. They don't take better positions.

There was a lot of experimenting due to development constrains, especially since at points the only reliable tool we had was the dialogue editor. Now that we have a more stable development cycle, we are moving towards more enviromental interaction, including a "turn-based" sneak system in the Colony Ship Game (at least that's the idea). In the next AoD update, we are adding "thieving opportunities", in which lockpick, sneak, steal and traps are done via point and click, stealing from inns and some houses.
So in turn Styg would have to learn to write and create hundreds of C&C in next game.
Fight of the species and their evolution at it's best :incline:
 
Last edited:

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
Same thing with fleeing. The game is giving you the option to flee if you've started a fight you can't win.
That's not what game does, at least that is not all of it. Game allows you to pick enemies one by one or even hurt them and then flee and hurt them again. When you flee, heal and return, your AoEs would still be up, enemies would be hurt, and their numbers won't replenish. It's not "second chance". They don't even heal themselves. They don't take better positions.

If you're saying they should heal up when you leave, just as you do: I agree. Bringing people back to life would be a bit much. Having a random enemy from same faction take their place would make sense though.

If you're saying that just because the game allows you to do this, then this is how you should play the game then I disagree strongly. I screwed up my first character and found myself resorting to this tactic in a couple of fights. At no point was I thinking "Wow, this game is so easy. All I have to do is kill one guy and then run and heal up and come back...". What I was thinking is "My character sucks and can't win fights legitimately and since this isn't fun I need to start over with a viable character". And I haven't used that tactic since even though doing so would make every fight "easier". Because we all know damn well that this is not how the game is supposed to be played and it doesn't take much self control to not do things that suck.

Some small changes could make the game less exploitable and it would make sense to implement them. What I disagree with is that using exploits in a single player RPG is compulsory.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
If you're saying they should heal up when you leave, just as you do: I agree. Bringing people back to life would be a bit much. Having a random enemy from same faction take their place would make sense though.

If you're saying that just because the game allows you to do this, then this is how you should play the game then I disagree strongly.
The first point. However, I don't believe player should play game with hands tied behind his back either. That's in the realm of making game what it is not and playing pretend.
At least if losing resources for fleeing in UR mattered that would have helped a lot too, but as for know your resources are just limitless.

I'd prefer you just had to reload, go fight weaker enemies and try again. Nothing wrong with failing and then trying again in game where resources are not an issue and difficulty is based around single encounter and cooldowns.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
The first point. However, I don't believe player should play game with hands tied behind his back either. That's in the realm of making game what it is not and playing pretend.
At least if losing resources for fleeing in UR mattered that would have helped a lot too, but as for know your resources are just limitless.

I agree re: "playing pretend" if you have to intentionally gimp your build by not choosing certain character or equipment options. Where we have to agree to disagree is that I don't view ignoring exploits as handicapping oneself.

I'd prefer you just had to reload, go fight weaker enemies and try again. Nothing wrong with failing and then trying again in game where resources are not an issue and difficulty is based around single encounter and cooldowns.

I wouldn't have a problem with this. I will also admit that I'm probably flashing back a bit to the whole "save scumming" argument, which I find utterly ridiculous. This issue is less clear cut for reasons you've stated. But I really don't have a problem with the way the game handles it now because I find it very easy not to ruin the game for myself by using this exploit.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
Also Lurker King: This rant was not specifically directed at you. But to address your "X-ray" vision analogy: In this case it would be the person using X-ray vision saying "Hide and seek is a flawed game because every time I play I use my X-ray vision goggles and its too easy". It not unreasonable to ask such a person "Have you tried playing without the goggles?"

A more proper analogy would be something like this: the creator of the hide and seek game gives everyone an x-ray goggle to use at their will. Then you say that the game is not flawed and if you are cheating with x-ray, that it’s your fault.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
A more proper analogy would be something like this: the creator of the hide and seek game gives everyone an x-ray goggle to use at their will. Then you say that the game is not flawed and if you are cheating with x-ray, that it’s your fault.

I never said anything is "cheating". I really don't care what you do in a single player RPG. My point, which I think I've beaten to death, is that nobody is forced to use an exploit so I don't understand why anyone uses them and then complains.

Edit: Also, even in your example why wouldn't the players agree not to use x-ray goggles if using them ruins the game?
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
A more proper analogy would be something like this: the creator of the hide and seek game gives everyone an x-ray goggle to use at their will. Then you say that the game is not flawed and if you are cheating with x-ray, that it’s your fault.

I never said anything is "cheating". I really don't care what you do in a single player RPG. My point, which I think I've beaten to death, is that nobody is forced to use an exploit so I don't understand why anyone uses them and then complains.

Edit: Also, even in your example why wouldn't the players agree not to use x-ray goggles if using them ruins the game?

Simple because there are fuckers who like to cheat but pretend they do not. Just like here.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,662
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
The best part of this thread is when the AoD crew tries to pretend that post-apocalyptic regressive Rome is, like, totally unique and original completely unlike a fantasy setting. 100% different, FACT!

There are shields, spears, swords, poison knives, capes, assassins, fighters, thieves, in general the gamut of fantasy paraphernalia and appurtenances... and Romanesque settings, while sorely underused, are far from original or unique. They're much more refreshing than Tolkien-derivative generic fantasy standard fare, though, no doubt about it.

Realistically, when setting aside AAA bullshit no one cares about (Fallout 3-4, Borderlands et al.) and games in entirely different genres (S.T.A.L.K.E.R.), there are relatively very few post-apocalyptic RPGs available. Wasteland, Fallout/2, and a very small smattering of others I can't recite encyclopedically at 7:40 AM are really just about it. Underrail is one of them and it, like AoD, blends genres a bit rather than being strictly post-apocalyptic.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Also Lurker King: This rant was not specifically directed at you. But to address your "X-ray" vision analogy: In this case it would be the person using X-ray vision saying "Hide and seek is a flawed game because every time I play I use my X-ray vision goggles and its too easy". It not unreasonable to ask such a person "Have you tried playing without the goggles?"

A more proper analogy would be something like this: the creator of the hide and seek game gives everyone an x-ray goggle to use at their will. Then you say that the game is not flawed and if you are cheating with x-ray, that it’s your fault.

The analogy sucks hard. You are not competeting against humans but against a limited "AI" or rather scripts since there is no real AI anyway so you are not in danger of ruining other peoples fun but yours and yours alone. It's up to you to take responsibility and decide how much you want to ruin your own fun and if you have to resort to cheap tactics 24/7 then the game is not too easy, you are just bad, either because you do not understand all the mechanics well, because you do not pay attention or because you suck in general or whatever.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom