Underrail vs Age of Decadence

[hell bovine]

What I am looking for is simple: if, for example, you want to convince the evil guy his plans for world domination are shit, then you need to first find proof said plans are shit,

This would be equally as simplistic and flawed. Many times persuasion is not completely or not at all about what the truth is but rather about how good of a wordsmith you are. If I have evidence that your warship of evil domination is going to explode anyhow and so you shouldn't use the princess as fuel and I can't present it properly because I'm literally autistic and can't talk to people my chances of convincing you out of your evil plan is far smaller than if I were an experienced door to door salesman that can bullshit and lie with the most sincere smile on his face. And since we are playing RPGs here the decision whether I'm playing a stuttering autist or a happy merchant should be reliant on the character's stats.

And where did I write "remove the skill checks"? I wrote: " dialogue checks alone are not enough."

Yea fixed quote.

I understand what you want. You want something like Sea did in his module Thirst, where you could learn things about city from NPCs and then use them as arguments in dialogue quest instead of just passing a Persuasion check.
It's a good thing but you probably couldn't create every dialogue to be as complicated as running diplomatic mission to Caladon.
However, what about things like [BodyCount] or being honest or not? These allow you to get leverage for persuading people, but they depend on your actions in game, not just on putting points during a level up.

Yeah, sounds like it (module for what? never heard of it). Body count in AoD is a very good idea, but the majority of dialogue that I've encountered was still just about passing a persuasion or streetwise check. I'd rather have much less dialogue-driven quests, but using things like reputation (or body count) for intimidation, gathering information for blackmail material, obtaining a rare item for bribe attempts, etc.

But, like I wrote - dialogue seems to be getting the short end of stick in games.

 

[makiavelli747]

gathering information for blackmail material, obtaining a rare item for bribe attempts, etc.

there is a lot of stuff like that in AoD
you need to find/forge documents to convince Antidas, steal the ring to make "persuasion" checks easier when stealing gold for thief guild, gather information about Crassus house to convince demon in Inferiae village etc.
and there is also def. consequences for using intimidate/persuasion etc. in a lot of quests.

without tags on, pure talkers playthrough is as good as it should be, you are choosing the right answer just like in games where dialogue trees are based on player's skills

 

[Irenaeus III]

I asked Elhoim for a option to remove tags back in October and he provided me with a console command to do it.

I think AoD is already challenging enough with tags on, but the ultimate difficulty is playing without them.

 

[hell bovine]

gathering information for blackmail material, obtaining a rare item for bribe attempts, etc.

there is a lot of stuff like that in AoD
you need to find/forge documents to convince Antidas, steal the ring to make "persuasion" checks easier when stealing gold for thief guild, gather information about Crassus house to convince demon in Inferiae village etc.
and there is also def. consequences for using intimidate/persuasion etc. in a lot of quests.

without tags on, pure talkers playthrough is as good as it should be, you are choosing the right answer just like in games where dialogue trees are based on player's skills

If there was indeed a lot of stuff like that in AoD, I wouldn't be able to finish it. But it isn't; my character managed to click-persuade/streetwise/(forgot the name of the third skill she used) her way through. Consider how the last quest (pass the robot guardian, or whatever it is) at the temple is developed from a "diplomatic" character's point of view. I would expect this to be the toughest challenge such a character can face in the game, not only because this is the end, but also because you can't sweet-talk your way around a robot. And what do you get instead? (this quest actually wins out with deep caverns in terms of bad game design for me, and frankly, Underrail's deep caverns are terrible)

 

[Shadenuat]

module for what? never heard of it

http://www.nexusmods.com/dragonage/mods/3496/?

 

[hell bovine]

module for what? never heard of it

http://www.nexusmods.com/dragonage/mods/3496/?

That's... quite surprising, actually, I wouldn't have thought of this game at all. But thanks for the rec, I might give it try, considering it's a standalone (I assume you can avoid the plague that is the original campaign).

 

[makiavelli747]

not only because this is the end, but also because you can't sweet-talk your way around a robot. And what do you get instead?

you can pass that location without a fight, by hiring mercenary guy or if you discover some old device

If there was indeed a lot of stuff like that in AoD, I wouldn't be able to finish it

there is a lot of stuff hidden, actually

that is basically a reason why people don't like to make complex rpg - most of folks wouldn't notice anyway or just don't care

 

[hell bovine]

not only because this is the end, but also because you can't sweet-talk your way around a robot. And what do you get instead?

you can pass that location without a fight, by hiring mercenary guy or if you discover some old device

That's what I meant as bad design. The game literally tells you what the solution is, then you travel to the one location where you could possibly find such an NPC, and said NPC/quest solution is conveniently placed near the entry point. But at least now I understand why VD said how they couldn't make this quest actually challenging, because some players still don't get it.

 

[Irenaeus III]

AoD is not a game for retards, Vince's words.

 

[hell bovine]

AoD is not a game for retards, Vince's words.

And you still don't get it, that's actually hilarious.
edit: In the discussion we had VD said that he can't make the quest less dumb (edit: my words, I think he said challenging; too lazy to dig it up), because he still has players complaining about the difficulty of this on their forums.

 

[makiavelli747]

But at least now I understand why VD said how they couldn't make this quest actually challenging, because some players still don't get it.

no, this quest is easy because they want hybrids to be able to fight those robots.

 

[hell bovine]

But at least now I understand why VD said how they couldn't make this quest actually challenging, because some players still don't get it.

no, this quest is easy because they want hybrids to be able to fight those robots.

You are one of those players, by chance?

 

[makiavelli747]

You are one of those players, by chance?

what players? those who like hybrids?

I don't care much about viable characters, as long as thief can be a thief and merchant can talk his way till the very end

 

[V_K]

there is a lot of stuff like that in AoD
you need to find/forge documents to convince Antidas, steal the ring to make "persuasion" checks easier when stealing gold for thief guild, gather information about Crassus house to convince demon in Inferiae village etc.
and there is also def. consequences for using intimidate/persuasion etc. in a lot of quests.

The problem, I think, is that all this stuff is optional, effectively functioning only as a buff to your civic skills. If it was made mandatory, there would at least be a decent Adventure game underneath all the checks - but alas.

without tags on, pure talkers playthrough is as good as it should be, you are choosing the right answer just like in games where dialogue trees are based on player's skills

Actually no, removing tags would only lead to more metagaming: first savescumming to figure out which options is linked to which skill, then to determine required level. The way one could make this CYOA game more involved without radically changing its structure is actually the opposite - by introducing more tagged options, with some of them being pure traps (I know there are some in the game already, but not nearly enough), while others relying on the same skill but having vastly different requirements.

 

[makiavelli747]

savescumming to figure out which options is linked to which skill

I was assuming a player should have brains to read and figure that out

then to determine required level

with mindless savescumming? good luck on that

the only question is... why would you do that instead of just playing a game?

The problem, I think, is that all this stuff is optional

well, maybe

 

[hell bovine]

You are one of those players, by chance?

what players? those who like hybrids?

I don't care much about viable characters, as long as thief can be a thief and merchant can talk his way till the very end

Those that don't care that "talking your way till the very end" involves a quest solution so dumb, that I'd expect to see it in a tutorial area and not at the very end of the game.

 

[V_K]

I was assuming a player should have brains to read and figure that out

That would be putting too much faith in the game's writers and their ability to convey that.

why would you do that instead of just playing a game?

Because I'm not a LARPer/storyfag and approach a game as a game and not as a visual novel? Or maybe because I like to know what I'm doing rather than randomly pick dialog lines?

 

[makiavelli747]

by introducing more tagged options, with some of them being pure traps

yes, that would work I think

Those that don't care that "talking your way till the very end" involves a quest solution so dumb, that I'd expect to see it in a tutorial area and not at the very end of the game.

I was playing without tags, and in general I had a lot of fun in my first merchant walkthrough, also I got to the final location through dead river

 

[hell bovine]

I was playing without tags, and in general I had a lot of fun in my first merchant walkthrough, also I got to the final location through dead river

And I got bored with mine after the first city.

 

[makiavelli747]

Or maybe because I like to know what I'm doing rather than randomly pick dialog lines?

if you know what you want from you char, and you read carefully every line in dialogues, then I don't understand how it can be random
otherwise, I can't see how "false lines" should save you from savescumming

 

[V_K]

if you know what you want from you char, and you read carefully every line in dialogues, then I don't understand how it can be random

Because this:

the game does not care what you said, it only cares what is your stat connected with that response.

In other words, you don't need to pick the right line to succeed - you need to have the right skill at the right level. And since that info is hidden from you, the choice might as well be random.

I can't see how "false lines" should save you from savescumming

Because false lines don't hide from me the information I need to succeed (i.e. which skill is used) while making the actual content of my response (and not just the skill level) matter.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Age of Decadence may be a computerized version of a gamebook, the combination of choose-your-own-adventure books with RPG elements that had a brief run of popularity, but it's about as good as it's possible for a computerized gamebook to be. Although AoD doesn't match my preferences in RPG subgenres, I respect its accomplishment for what it is. Due to its character customization and divergent paths, I was able to have a lot of fun with two non-combat playthroughs and two combat playthroughs, and will return to the game for the two paths I haven't experienced (thieves guild & House Aurelian).

 

[makiavelli747]

And since that info is hidden from you, the choice might as well be random.

first of all, as I said, most of the time its obvious. its obvious what kind of stat your char is using when you trying to pretend a loremaster or a guard, for example.
but still, when you making pure talker with high persuasion/streetwise/trade plus charisma, that's all irrelevant(which is why I agree that when you have just one pure talking stat like charisma compared to 4 combat, it could be better to use old style approach with "false lines" like we had in Arcanum and other games)

 

[V_K]

first of all, as I said, most of the time its obvious. its obvious what kind of stat your char is using when you trying to pretend a loremaster or a guard, for example.

Then what's the point of removing tags at all? To make you read the lines instead of just scanning them?

 

[makiavelli747]

To make you read the lines instead of just scanning them?

is it possible to be any other point?