Underrail vs Age of Decadence

[ArchAngel]

Underrail has Psionics.
/end topic

 

[Sykar]

Middle age or antiquity - same difference.
Retard detected, no wonder you prefer inferior Underrail to Age of Decadence. And as Zed Duke of Banville pointed out it's not a fantasy setting. It has unique setting though unlike Underrail which is Fallout in the sewers rip-off. Make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have and show me other RPGs with similar setting ("that type of fantasy") if you think that AoD is like almost every other cRPG, lol.

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?
Also yeah Underrail is "just Fallout in sewers" since caverns and metro tunnels = sewers, dumbfuck.

Underrail has Psionics.
/end topic

I wish metathermics would have less of a fantasy vibe though.

 

[MF]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

 

[Shadenuat]

Here's a distinction between AoD and UR that I feel is important, after I invested ~100 hours into both of these games.

UR has many strong systems, but it often does poorly with them to create roleplaying environment.

AoD has a few systems and only one of them is decent (combat), but even without much systemic content it manages to create good roleplaying environment.

Allow me to elaborate. Sure, in UR you have many options and systems, but it doesn't feel like you are rewarded for using them to solve problems. You can effectively clean levels of enemies and loot without touching things like stealth or diplomacy, and your progression through linear main quest wouldn't change even a bit. It has content akin to modern RPGs, like groups of bandits or other scum that have no dialogue or personality at all, at best you could Intimidate them to pass through some location, but you have no reasoning to do so - they're out of reputation system if there's any, and sparing enemies means you just miss loot and xp. You can solve particular level with stealth, but why would you, if in both types of XP systems you, again, miss on loot and xp. You can go in gun blazing instead of crawling in vents, but the difference would be, like in games like KOTOR, that you'd just have to clean one more room of enemies. And from that, you'll have loot and xp.

There are quite a handful of quests in Underrail where systemic approach just goes out of the window for some reason. An example of that would be Slay the Beast in Foundry quest - kill creature than seems invulnerable. Since game is systemic, you'd think making a very strong boss with something like 200% physical resistance, but making it vulnerable to some other forms of damage so defeating it would be very very difficult is the right way. And people who can't defeat it would have to follow with fetch quests. In one of the patches I saw line "Fixed way of killing Beast that was not intended". It might have been just bug fix, but it made me think about this quest. Everyone has to go through same linear quest a-la Bioware RPGs.
Compare it to content like getting package from island where you are attacked by enemies that can only be harmed with psionics. That's good content in comparison. Many players would have to plan and think if they want to bother with it.

The amount of this linear design spikes in Deep Caverns where in many places game allows you to use your skills only when it is beneficial to game and linear handholding design, as compared to more open-like locations like first quest in the game, or Lurker base with multiple entrances. You're basically going through linear game of grabbing colored keys and no matter what you did in the game before, you will have to beat this finishing line and you can change nothing about that (aside from maybe beating it quicker if you have high Mechanics, but you'll miss on extra content, loot and xp).
Very often characters in UR that are completely different would end up doing same stuff.

That is not the case in AoD.
Your character's build is incredibly important and different characters not only get unique paths through game but may find each others content completely unsolvable.

Thief in UR can steal items for profit and xp, and sometimes solve same quest other characters do by stealing an item. Thief in AoD actually lives as a thief.

Even most of the money you make in AoD is often a pay for service in your guild (remember how people asked for more money for Praetor, there is no way something like that can even be asked for in UR). UR has special system to make traders look more realistic. How does it fare in comparison to AoD? Is it an elegant system? Yes. Does it help game? No, it does shit. It doesn't balance game or create more realistic economic system, and doesn't make you struggle with money like AoD sometimes does.

The other part is political and social play. AoD blows UR here out of the water. Making choices during play in factions in AoD and changing masters and betraying leaders is a strong part of AoD. UR has good connectivity in physical locations, but AoD has good connectivity in it's political picture, which is a lot more important. Not to mention that most of quests in UR are basically fetch quests or explore/kill. Whatever investigation quests there are are fairly simple. And there is no dialogue on a level of, say, Lady Lorenza's in AoD.

One of examples of big dialogues in UR is one you get when you need to enter Institute. It's humongous, very, very long. I spent some time going through it. But you know what? If you hold "1" key, you'll pass it. Derp.

As people pointed out, UR needs more C&C, I would also add that it needs a retouche on it's final locations, it needs to get rid of human enemies that are hostile by default - completely (change hostile bandits into, say, bands with different names, let Lunatics hate Lurkers, while being neutral to player killing Stalkers, but loving him for killing Lurkers), change more animals to neutral too (say, there are lairs where beasts attack you, but they don't attack you in neutral locations), it also needs more, I dunno, JA2 stuff - fences you could cut, generators to turn off, back entrances, people reacting to your deeds; it also needs more people you know follow you through game (like Gorsky) to make plot stronger and tie in events together, and more faction play, as well as re-made DC (make player go there not alone, but with faction he likes). It needs more decisions that completely change main playthrough, at least during final stages of the game (Upper City, DC).

Does all that mean I think AoD is better game, like, 9/10 and UR 8/10 or whatever?

Not by a lot, no. I'd say AoD and UR are equal (if you can write an equation for fun), they just have different design paradigms. However, I feel like design paradigm of AoD (non compromising roleplaying game, strong consequences for playing different roles) makes it closer to what I feel should be an "ideal" RPG. Or, rather it follows through with it's paradigm to the end and completely, while UR doesn't with it's own, mixing and mashing it on the run with some others and getting weaker from it.

Spoiler

Well and also writing in UR, especially endgame is kinda biowarian plot armored piano hidden in bushes cliffhanging wait-for-the-sequel system shock plagiarism crap.

 

[ArchAngel]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

If you cannot use those freely during the game, they are just McGuffins and mean shit.

 

[Black]

Undertale, obviously.

 

[MF]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

If you cannot use those freely during the game, they are just McGuffins and mean shit.

Spoiler

You can get powered armor that is essentially Underrail's Regenerative Vest + Energy Shield.

 

[ArchAngel]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

If you cannot use those freely during the game, they are just McGuffins and mean shit.

Spoiler

You can get powered armor that is essentially Underrail's Regenerative Vest + Energy Shield.

Spoiler

At what point of the game? Do you get to keep it? Does everyone else fall down and threat you like a god when they see you walking around in it?

 

[MF]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

If you cannot use those freely during the game, they are just McGuffins and mean shit.

Spoiler

You can get powered armor that is essentially Underrail's Regenerative Vest + Energy Shield.

Spoiler

At what point of the game? Do you get to keep it? Does everyone else fall down and threat you like a god when they see you walking around in it?

Spoiler

About 2/3 of the way through, halfway through for some builds. You get to keep it if you want. People don't respond to it, but outside of combat the shield and automatically retracting helmet are inactive so it's not as conspicuous as you might think. The aesthetic is a little like Stargate. I'm not sure if NPC's respond to it in combat. If not, they should.

 

[hell bovine]

The other part is political and social play. AoD blows UR here out of the water. Making choices during play in factions in AoD and changing masters and betraying leaders is a strong part of AoD. UR has good connectivity in physical locations, but AoD has good connectivity in it's political picture, which is a lot more important. Not to mention that most of quests in UR are basically fetch quests or explore/kill. Whatever investigation quests there are are fairly simple. And there is no dialogue on a level of, say, Lady Lorenza's in AoD.

Unless you play merchant, I guess, because my impressions were that their guildmasters are "dumb and dumber". There is no challenge to their quests either (apart form the first city, after that it goes downhill quickly), because it's just about passing persuasion/streetwise/whatever checks in dialogues. And the final quest in the merchant line - how to get inside the temple - wins with the deep caverns in terms of terrible design decisions. (though at least it's much shorter than the caverns)

One thing that bugged me about AoD setting: why are the "boatmen of Styx" called that? I found no references to Greek religion regarding this mythical river. Where are they hidden?

 

[Sykar]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

So it's a Mad Max setting in an ancient Rome environment. Not terribly innovative either.

 

[ArchAngel]

Lol inferior. "Unique" like Titan Quest I guess if it's set in an era similar to ancient Greeze/Rome. Whatever it's exact setting is does not matter, it's still in the past and I prefer sci-fi. Was that clear enough moron?

AoD is not set in the past. It's also post-apocalyptic sci-fi. In fact, you can find ancient technology from before the apocalypse that surpasses the level of technology in Underrail.

If you cannot use those freely during the game, they are just McGuffins and mean shit.

Spoiler

You can get powered armor that is essentially Underrail's Regenerative Vest + Energy Shield.

Spoiler

At what point of the game? Do you get to keep it? Does everyone else fall down and threat you like a god when they see you walking around in it?

Spoiler

About 2/3 of the way through, halfway through for some builds. You get to keep it if you want. People don't respond to it, but outside of combat the shield and automatically retracting helmet are inactive so it's not as conspicuous as you might think. The aesthetic is a little like Stargate. I'm not sure if NPC's respond to it in combat. If not, they should.

Spoiler

Well in a world where this is only special gear you find and use I would say it would seem more like magic. Not much post apocalypse in it. Numenera is similar and it is not considered post apocalypse.

 

[Tito Anic]

Which is better and why?

Too different games to be compared Both are like a treasure to thirsty mind of the RPG nerd.

 

[Lurker King]

Underrail allows to solve challenges through combat, stealth or, occasionally, dialog and you can mix and match approaches rather freely. AoD allows to solve challenges through either combat or CYOA sequences and requires commitment to one of these approaches, severely punishing hybridisation.

You forgot to mention that there must be three or four times in which you can use dialogue skills in the whole fucking game, and that dialogue skills are dump skills. Underrail is all about combat. So you can play with hybrids in the sense you can have different combat and (boring) exploration skills. A hybrid in that sense is just fighter that can use different ways to kill, nothing more.

The reason why Underrail managed to provide more options in combat and exploration than AoD is the very same reason that made it completely linear and repetitive. AoD is overall a superior game. It has great combat system, great writing, amazing reactivity and abundant skill and stat checks. Underrail beat AoD in the combat and exploration department, but is worse in everything else.

 

[Lurker King]

Playing Underrail

05 hours of gameplay: the combat is awesome! What happened with the maps? I can’t run either, that is weird. Let me read my character sheet. Whow, what it’s about with these tinny unreadable letters.

20 hours of gameplay: hmmm… maybe if I tried that other skill with that and that stat. Time to restart, I can make a better build.

25 hours of gameplay: It’s hammer time! I’m a juggernaut, yeah! I will try a sniper build the next time.

35 hours of gameplay: okay, I need to walk another 50 mins to visit the other location again. Who have the idea that a NPC named “Joe, the beautiful” would be interesting? That is so retarded.

45 hours of gameplay: Oh, come on! 3000 charons for this stupid fucking armor with poor quality? Let me check the site. Ok, so Styg thought that the quality should be random so that players could try multiple times to get a better armor in order to spend all their useless money. Somewhat he thought this grinding toward decent armor fixed the broken economy in the game. You should fix this retarded kiting. I can kill everyone kiting, Styg.

60 hours of gameplay: Oh, god. I can’t stand another fucking lock. Mechanical locks, electronic locks.. all filled with random shit. Fucking barrels. What is the idea with these barrels? Fucking Arcanum influence. Fucking respawning rats all over the place. Fucking cooldowns. Too much backtracking, too much repetitive bullshit. Fallout my ass! This thing is a covert Diablo in post-apocalyptical setting.

70 hours of gameplay: Styg main influences must be jRPGs and MMOs. Do I even have a choice? These talking skills were complete useless. I want my skill points back. Dump skills.

80 hours of gameplay: Ok, so now I’m trapped in deep caverns shit. Fuck this masochist bullshit. I will stop playing now.

 

[Lurker King]

And Age of Decadence isn't fantasy, but rather a ruined post-apocalyptic regression to the level of classical Rome after the fall of a highly-advanced technological civilization. Like it or hate it, it's very far removed from the typical fantasy medieval RPG setting .

Just so you know, some forum members who have a grudge with Vault Dweller ALWAYS dissmissed the game. They are talking trash from day one.

 

[V_K]

dialogue skills are dump skills

Which is absolutely fine, more games should do that. Because dialog trees with binary checks aren't gameplay.

 

[Sykar]

And Age of Decadence isn't fantasy, but rather a ruined post-apocalyptic regression to the level of classical Rome after the fall of a highly-advanced technological civilization. Like it or hate it, it's very far removed from the typical fantasy medieval RPG setting .

Just so you know, some forum members who have a grudge with Vault Dweller ALWAYS dissmissed the game. They are talking trash from day one.

Talking shit? Just because I do not like the setting? Whatever you say.

 

[Lurker King]

dialogue skills are dump skills

Which is absolutely fine, more games should do that. Because dialog trees with binary checks aren't gameplay.

Right, so games that are cRPGs, whose main purpose is to role-play, should have just combat and dump dialogue skills, because only combat is a gameplay element in a strategy game. Things like choosing things to say are not relevant in a cRPG.

 

[hivemind]

What is a better singleplayer mmo Dragons Dogma or Underrail ?

 

[warpig]

Both are a lot of fun but AoD is imo better with it's extensive c&c, branching story, different ways to play it etc. and it has a cool, original setting (finally a fantasy setting that's not elves and fairy tales n shit).

 

[Parabalus]

I'd say the biggest difference between them is that UR embraces the standard RPG fare of you becoming a walking god by the end. On the other hand, AoD (very successfully) subverts the trope while *still* allowing you to feel omnipotent though/because you are just one puny human.

AoD setting is a bit more unique than post-post apocalyptic, but for me both managed to awaken a desire to learn and understand the backstory, and they both keep everything sufficiently muddied to remain mysterious.

Graphics I'm kinda split on. I'm inclined to say AoD just because of the dagger stabbing animations, those are so visceral everything else pales in comparison. It has a lot of great architectural moments, but a lot of bad ones too, because of the old 3D engine ; UR is of a more uniform quality. Who cares anyway, bot are nice to look at.

Combat is fun in both games. AoD is easier to fail in because your overall power level is much lower and it has the more interesting encounters, but the basic combat gameplay is much richer in UR, because you have more available choices in any given moment and your PC is powerful enough that you can easily win while doing suboptimal but more interesting decisions. AoD, however, allows you to influence combat in a breadth of ways before you step into it, which is a facet that UR doesn't even have.

I'd say the net sum of joy from both of the is about the same, but AoD is a more tight experience, in the sense that (joy)/(hour) is higher, but the duration is somewhat lower even with replayability, which makes both games balanced viable, just different.

 

[hell bovine]

dialogue skills are dump skills

Which is absolutely fine, more games should do that. Because dialog trees with binary checks aren't gameplay.

Right, so games that are cRPGs, whose main purpose is to role-play, should have just combat and dump dialogue skills, because only combat is a gameplay element in a strategy game. Things like choosing things to say are not relevant in a cRPG.

You know, there was an interesting discussion about how dialogue-driven gameplay should work in cRPGs, and I think the general consensus was: dialogue checks alone are not enough.
For example: if your character is tasked with blackmail an NPC, then said character should first find sufficient blackmail material; if they need to persuade an NPC, then they should find out information that could help them convince said NPC. Because if you reduce plot progression to "choosing things to say", you might as well be reading a "choose your adventure" book; it's the kind of "roleplaying"(if you can call it that) that lacks any challenge beyond assigning skill points to your character. Both AoD and Underrail are guilty of this, except it's more visible in AoD, because they are more dialogue checks.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Nothing wrong with choosing your "adventure" in a dialogue and suffering the consequences of your choice. The more branching and states a game has, the better, if they are well-written.

 

[toro]

There is another big difference: UR lows are higher than AoD lows.

Cause even if I hate DC, I fucking hate teleportation more. And please don't bullshit me about the necessity of it, the only reason why that shit was implemented is that the AoD designer was not capable or unwilling to implement quest sequence breaking.

So, you have UR where exploration is great compared to a game where even your freedom of movement is impaired by the quest design. I don't know about you but this is definitely a no-go for me.

I would love to experience what AoD has to offer but last time I tried to play it ... I gave up after 1 or 2 hours because I had no idea where the fuck was I. Also I did the major mistake of trying to branch out from a combat orientated build.

Well, another shitty thing specific to AoD: is true that social skills are underdeveloped but even broken builds are viable in UR while the same cannot be said about AoD where specialization is recommended. I think someone else was complaining about mix-maxing shit in UR: he should try AoD.

As for the much touted C&C from AoD: I think the approach is imbecilic. You have the option to "choose" between unknown and drastic consequences which in the end will lead you to the same meta-gaming shit: try all the options until you find something which is more profitable for you. Also learn all the skill checks bullshit in advance.

So instead of a natural flowing experience, in AoD you get a syncopated experience gated by artificial skill checks where save-scumming and meta-gaming are a necessity instead of last resort options. Great fucking design.

What else ... I thought RNG influence is much higher in AoD than in UR. Also visually there is no comparison and except dialogues there is not much else that AoD offers and which is significantly better than UR.