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Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
Pump skills as much as you can early on.The differences between 15 points and 40 is significant. Once you reach higher values continuing leveling like this might be unnecessary. I'd say you should at least raise your combat skills whenever you can.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
I can confirm that both systems are here to stay. I also like oddity better and from developer viewpoint it's easier to balance, but maintaining the classic system isn't a big deal.

Although the oddity system has been well received by the game's community, I'm sure a lot of new players prefer classic just for the familiarity. Choice is indeed good.
 

Kalasanty11

Learned
Joined
May 1, 2014
Messages
154
So, after finishing alpha I got desperate for more games like that, iso turn-based goodness. Is there even something that remotely compares? What about Avernum (originals, not remakes) for example? This series didn't seem to get much attention on dex.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
Classic
-Discourages non-combat Stealth use (this being a major feature of the game for many character types)
-Encourages repetition and unnecessary backtracking such as repeating trivial combat respawns
-Encourages tedious actions such as disarming unnecessary traps or unlocking containers of little value purely for XP (and overvalues Lockpicking, Hacking, and Traps skills as a result)
-Gives a consistent drip of XP (this is a nice quality)

Oddity
-Directly encourages and rewards exploration (one of the biggest strengths of the game) as oddity "stashes" are generally behind some obstacle rather than out in the open
-Any character can fully leverage the oddity system, even really bad (according to game mechanics) characters
-Even the most depraved mind hell-bent on gaining XP will naturally progress through the game as they empty areas of oddities
-Oddity acquisition is strongly correlated with progress in the game (breadth and depth), so doing things for the sake of doing them not only uncovers more of this interesting game but also levels your character

The worst aspect of Classic is that it artificially discourages many character builds, but even on builds it's optimal for (like derpy Rifleman) there's also the constant XP nag. "I could do [x] or I could pick up all these traps/go back and do that fight again". Oddity frees the player almost 100% from any concern about XP. Leveling is less of a motivation and more of a by-product of play.

If this was an MMO or something, I could see people wanting to go Classic. But this is an exploration game with a large open world, explorable by a huge array of very different character concepts. The oddity system was literally made for this game.

For those of you struggling with the concept of not being "rewarded" for opening every door or killing every rat: stop playing Farmville on your smartphone and seek professional help.

For the rest which might be skeptical of Oddity: for decades, gamers and game designers have struggled with the simplistic design of XP grinding. This has gone on for so long that people have forgotten that the point of playing games was to experience the gameplay - now we have XP grinding established as a game-within-a-game to the point where in many games that's the only point. A developer has taken it upon themselves to reverse this bastardization, putting an enormous amount of work into creating an XP system that involves neither repetition nor redirection of player energies.

There's no opportunity cost to using the oddity system. If all you want out of a game is to level as fast as possible because of a wicked depravity, the oddity system is the way to go.

This discussion is so insane it's starting to resemble the Grimoire thread. Play on oddity experience. Travel off the path occasionally. Find cool stuff, read cool flavor text. Level whether or not you're trying.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Classic
-Discourages non-combat Stealth use (this being a major feature of the game for many character types)
-Encourages repetition and unnecessary backtracking such as repeating trivial combat respawns
-Encourages tedious actions such as disarming unnecessary traps or unlocking containers of little value purely for XP (and overvalues Lockpicking, Hacking, and Traps skills as a result)
-Gives a consistent drip of XP (this is a nice quality)

Oddity
-Directly encourages and rewards exploration (one of the biggest strengths of the game) as oddity "stashes" are generally behind some obstacle rather than out in the open
-Any character can fully leverage the oddity system, even really bad (according to game mechanics) characters
-Even the most depraved mind hell-bent on gaining XP will naturally progress through the game as they empty areas of oddities
-Oddity acquisition is strongly correlated with progress in the game (breadth and depth), so doing things for the sake of doing them not only uncovers more of this interesting game but also levels your character

The worst aspect of Classic is that it artificially discourages many character builds, but even on builds it's optimal for (like derpy Rifleman) there's also the constant XP nag. "I could do [x] or I could pick up all these traps/go back and do that fight again". Oddity frees the player almost 100% from any concern about XP. Leveling is less of a motivation and more of a by-product of play.

If this was an MMO or something, I could see people wanting to go Classic. But this is an exploration game with a large open world, explorable by a huge array of very different character concepts. The oddity system was literally made for this game.

For those of you struggling with the concept of not being "rewarded" for opening every door or killing every rat: stop playing Farmville on your smartphone and seek professional help.

For the rest which might be skeptical of Oddity: for decades, gamers and game designers have struggled with the simplistic design of XP grinding. This has gone on for so long that people have forgotten that the point of playing games was to experience the gameplay - now we have XP grinding established as a game-within-a-game to the point where in many games that's the only point. A developer has taken it upon themselves to reverse this bastardization, putting an enormous amount of work into creating an XP system that involves neither repetition nor redirection of player energies.

There's no opportunity cost to using the oddity system. If all you want out of a game is to level as fast as possible because of a wicked depravity, the oddity system is the way to go.

This discussion is so insane it's starting to resemble the Grimoire thread. Play on oddity experience. Travel off the path occasionally. Find cool stuff, read cool flavor text. Level whether or not you're trying.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter. :bro:
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
Post-modern problems
Pretty much.

But I don't think your comment will float many boats. Seems like a lot of people really want to think I was actually arguing something and then proceed to try to convince me I should actually prefer what I have previously stated I actually prefer.

You can't escape it ... it always comes back to Highlander:

 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,567
Location
Denmark
I don't know.

People saying oddity system is the way to go.

What about the people who check everything anyway? There's no difference between classic and oddity there.

Actually, you level super fast with the oddity system, making the difficulty curve seem bad. The game was much easier for me with the oddity system, than the classic xp.

Also, you guys say, the oddity system encourages exploration? Doesn't classic system do that too? (open everything, kill all etc.)?

I'm failing to see the pros and cons.

Encourages tedious actions such as disarming unnecessary traps or unlocking containers of little value purely for XP (and overvalues Lockpicking, Hacking, and Traps skills as a result)

Doesn't the oddity system to this as well? Since most items are behind lockers, hacks and shit?
 

polo

Magister
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
1,737
I don't know.

People saying oddity system is the way to go.

What about the people who check everything anyway? There's no difference between classic and oddity there.

Actually, you level super fast with the oddity system, making the difficulty curve seem bad. The game was much easier for me with the oddity system, than the classic xp.

Also, you guys say, the oddity system encourages exploration? Doesn't classic system do that too? (open everything, kill all etc.)?

I'm failing to see the pros and cons.

Encourages tedious actions such as disarming unnecessary traps or unlocking containers of little value purely for XP (and overvalues Lockpicking, Hacking, and Traps skills as a result)

Doesn't the oddity system to this as well? Since most items are behind lockers, hacks and shit?

You fail to differentiate between exploration and kill everything.
But anyways, i think both systems are good, i stick with oddity tho.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
Tbh oddities remind me of how you used to level in older D&D editions, mostly by the value of the treasure you retrieve. Which of course is behind tons of obstacles and encouraged exploration.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,567
Location
Denmark
You still level way too fast right now, with the oddity system.

I was like lvl 9 at junkyard or some shit, wtf lel.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
This XP system discussion just keep popping up again and again... maybe I should make a standard-issue copypasta response with Styg's original explanation of the oddity system, Pope Amole II's post about it and some additional stuff.

Intinium and in a previous version classic was the faster one. That's not an argument for one XP system or another. Keep in mind that we're still talking about alpha versions here. The devs haven't had time to playtest the entire game in years. However, I can say that you're pretty close to the intended XP curve. Depot A has been roughly level 10-12 affair for as long as it has existed. If you're considerably behind on classic, that's probably partially due to your playstyle - classic is much more sensitive to that sort of thing and it takes metagaming to maximize your XP gains.

You're right about the game being easy, 0.1.14 is the easiest Underrail has ever been. It had huge crafting changes, the first iteration of a new psi system, loads of new items and feats, level cap increase, all mostly to the player's benefit. Some of the issues from current live version have already been fixed in development builds, but proper testing and final tweaking of all systems will happen in beta.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
What's your problem ?

This XP system discussion just keep popping up again and again...

That's my problem. That was discussed already, possibly a dozen of times, but more than that - ST'Ranger scrupulously discribe all that matter about exp vs oddity just before your post, and you completely didn't got it.
 

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