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Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

razvedchiki

Erudite
Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
4,268
Location
on the back of a T34.
thats the avatar of hoverdog you are using now,a dog that hovers

MEN QUICK with have a shapeshifter infiltration amongst our ranks!

bring out the sword of balduran!
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
Come on motherfuckers does anyone know where you get tabi boots blueprint? I can't fucking find it.

Epeli's suggestion for blaine is the most reliable way.

The earliest way to get Tabi boots is to scum the armory store.

You can scum a store inventory by saving right before you talk to them when they are timed to reset inventory (about 1 hour I think).

Just quickload until the blueprint shows up.

I have scummed a number of stores to see how things populate and I have to say the way things are generated needs some help. It very much incentivizes scumming for crafting. Many key components are not available at all in any sort of regular manner without scumming. The quality range is also quite large. Some shops have much higher quality and scumming them is a big deal. The weapon shop in Core City can have compnents of quality 105+. Other shops in Core city stop at 89.

Things like electronic shops should not sometime have power cores and sometimes not. Almost every electronic style thing requires power cores, they should be more common probably even a guaranteed generate. There are two levels of variance in the shops existence and quality. The quality in Core City can be a 30 point swing, this is very large. It provides plenty of variance. Yet finding certain components like a smart module can take 5 or scum just to get one to populate at all much less the quality.

Getting a really high level smart module like 84+ in Core city can take over an hour of save scumming. This seems a little off for something that is useless without the ability to craft and gated by high-ish crafting skill.

Creating an item like a shield that has 4 different components whose quality matter a lot is even worse. Scumming shops to create a high end shield is pretty ridiculous. Even getting a nice 85+ energy core take a long time, much less the two shield parts and the modifier part. To get all of those pretty high you could be looking at about 3-ish hours of save scumming. For whatever odd reason the shield parts are easier to scum even though they are actually the least important part quality wise.

I am just using time as a measure of probability here. You are basically doing X amount of tries per hour. If we say an hour is about 60 tries. Then you have a 1/60 chance at a high end power core in an electronics shop. Its probably worse than that I would say 1/100.

It should not be that hard to get a good power core. Given the nature of shop inventory the existence of most parts should be closer to guaranteed at the very least. Walking around to three electronics stores and not seeing any power cores at all seems really silly. I suppose one could argue this make the dissassemble perks better, but probably a lot of people will just scum stores instead of using a perk that gives inferior components.
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
but crafting one is not gonna happen

Actually I have seen in let'splay how Pope Amole II found blueprints.

I suppose this is possible. There are two stores you can scum for blueprints in junkyard. These two palces can give you the blue special ammo blueprints. I scummed them for a number of hours and never saw a shield BP so I am gonna say its probably a super rare drop from one of a few limited containers.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
Things like electronic shops should not sometime have power cores and sometimes not. Almost every electronic style thing requires power cores, they should be more common probably even a guaranteed generate.
Even getting a nice 85+ energy core take a long time, much less the two shield parts and the modifier part. To get all of those pretty high you could be looking at about 3-ish hours of save scumming. For whatever odd reason the shield parts are easier to scum even though they are actually the least important part quality wise.

I belive the reason is that energy core is necessary component. Thus it's rare, and valuable, because it is needed for various expensive thing you can craft and sell.

but probably a lot of people will just scum stores instead of using a perk that gives inferior components.

All much more simple - you craft shield, weapon, cloack device from what you have at hand (not from first you got, but Q 50-60 would be enough for first). After that I just buy all components again, if I have energy core 70 I carry it with me and when I see core better than that I buy it.
If I see my weapon is too weak at that moment, I craft what I need again.
There is no need to savescam, at least for those builds I played - melee fist fighter, pistolero, psi.

If all components will be available at every moment, how you expect to get satisfaction from events in game?
The feeling of satisfaction is generated by a sense of need.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
9,005
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
it should be clear he falls into #3. There's nothing inherently wrong about being obsessive in your gaming
Get your head out of your anus and stop comparing experimenting all the content in a game with being obsessive. It's human nature (with sad exceptions of course) to be curious and explore thoroughly.
Obsessive is grinding for XP for hours at end.

But a lot of people have more jobs and less single-minded dedication to a single game
That's why hordes of folks with "jobs and less single-minded dedication to a single game" consider Pillars of Eternity a great achievement in gaming industry.
I guess it was tailored for them because while I was playing midgame I was sick of how banal and boring the combat became because of XP balance. Same shit in the last Divinity.
And why did I received this nice "reward"? Because I was completing all the sidequests! Well, thank you very much!

7746a67e311bab0305acb6bdeb9222691340312675_full.jpg





I click every container, never avoid combat and do all the quests. I'd always hit the level cap with a good chunk of the game still unplayed
The problem is that not everyone has OCD. Lower the availability too much and people who want to follow the main story on their first playthrough will be forced to backtrack

People who want to follow the main story should read the novella or watch youtube by skipping the challenging combat parts.
Also they should stay the fuck out of games.
If possible.

Ulminati, the douchebag calling meticulous gamers persosns with mental disorders and the defender of the needs of casual storyfags all over the world.
Call 1-400-BACKTRACK-NOMORE.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
gestalt11 do you have more observations about shops and items that are too rare/common? That can be good feedback. You probably know the traders very well with all that savescumming.

Also, have you considered just rolling with what you get, no savescumming? Try it as soon as you're comfortable with the difficulty, you might like it. For me, Underrail is more fun when there's a possibility to find gear upgrades or useful components almost anywhere and my character's power is reasonably limited by not having the absolute best gear. Finally crafting your perfect energy shield (or any other complex piece of gear) is very satisfying when it has taken time, effort and luck to gather the parts - rather than few minutes of savescumming. There are few opportunities to reliably get high quality components. Since you mentioned power cores - there's a quest that rewards you with a 100+ quality plasma core. It feels like a great reward if you don't spend hours savescumming electronics shops.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
I'm too used savescumming for traders, but it was long-long ago, almost two years, and I abandoned that idea almost immediately.
Because 1) that kill all the fun, 2) it is not a necessity.
 

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
gestalt11 I know where to get tabis I was asking specifically about the blueprint.

epeli I didn't try running without savescumming, but really, I just don't like excessive randomness in games. I feel like having an easy or difficult time based purely on RNG is unsatisfying. If I'm undergeared and getting fucked because of it I feel like it's undeserved, and if I get lucky and the game spits a high-level component I feel like I didn't deserve that either. Savescumming is the fuck it button. You get rid of the RNG and just play the game with exactly the items you want, which is an important point. It's not just about the number, it's about using the items you want.
 

Sheepherder

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
657
Ulminati It's not OCD, you tit. In a game, if something is clickable, I'll click it. It's there to be clicked.
Here's another 3 letter acronym, just for you - ADD.

epeli He has a point though. Component quality and the chance that they'll appear is too wild. There are fewer merchants who sell higher quality electronics components, so without savescumming I've spent up to several hours gathering the components for the psi headband, even with access to certain faction stores. However, I have no trouble getting parts for a decent quality shield.
Getting good quality metal plates, carrier vests and padding is easier because more merchants sell them.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
Alfons yeah, I understand some people dislike randomness, although in Underrail's case most of the item randomness is only different variations of the same base item or same item type, not cheap diablo-style totally random system. Good thing Styg allows easy savescumming so it's possible to metagame the randomness away if you want.

Sheepherder yup, he has a good point. That's why I asked if he (or you, or anyone else!) can list more items that seem to be too rare. There are hundreds of components and thousands of items so I wouldn't be surprised if some are simply overlooked. I've tried to make sure there's at least one static place to buy each general blueprint, but I don't savescum shops much myself (mostly for testing/datamining for underrail wiki), so I don't have a clear picture of items that could be underrepresented in shops.
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
gestalt11 I know where to get tabis I was asking specifically about the blueprint.

epeli I didn't try running without savescumming, but really, I just don't like excessive randomness in games. I feel like having an easy or difficult time based purely on RNG is unsatisfying. If I'm undergeared and getting fucked because of it I feel like it's undeserved, and if I get lucky and the game spits a high-level component I feel like I didn't deserve that either. Savescumming is the fuck it button. You get rid of the RNG and just play the game with exactly the items you want, which is an important point. It's not just about the number, it's about using the items you want.

No you can get the blueprint from both of the places I mentioned. But the armory does not have Tabi's as a guaranteed generate rather its a random extra generate.
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
gestalt11 do you have more observations about shops and items that are too rare/common? That can be good feedback. You probably know the traders very well with all that savescumming.

Also, have you considered just rolling with what you get, no savescumming? Try it as soon as you're comfortable with the difficulty, you might like it. For me, Underrail is more fun when there's a possibility to find gear upgrades or useful components almost anywhere and my character's power is reasonably limited by not having the absolute best gear. Finally crafting your perfect energy shield (or any other complex piece of gear) is very satisfying when it has taken time, effort and luck to gather the parts - rather than few minutes of savescumming. There are few opportunities to reliably get high quality components. Since you mentioned power cores - there's a quest that rewards you with a 100+ quality plasma core. It feels like a great reward if you don't spend hours savescumming electronics shops.

I save scummed specifically to characterize the type of item you can make and the nature of generation at the stores. Not to "win" the game as I have purposely stopped any playthough at a partial completion of objectives for the core city section, i.e. one playthough did beast but not hunting camp etc. I am sure you can playthrough the game just fine without scumming for quality stuff or even crafting things at all.

The issues with what you are saying about crafting the "perfect" taking time is that it will never happen. Its a fine idea in theory but in practice the likelyhood of ever getting the components without save scumming are vanishingly small so 99% of playthrough will be onto the next tier before it ever happened. The 3 hour figure I said above is actually fairly low, but good enough to use. That is about 250 store generation events. Just to get one run at what you need. That is small enough that you should assume you will never actually create a top notch shield in the Core City tier of the game. Can it happen? Sure you can always get lucky but for most people it will never happen and for the people it does happen for.

Does it actually matter whether someone crafted a shield with all 75 quality items intstead of all 89s? Sure it matters some but its not going to make the game hugely harder. Its not a balance issue, really. It just setup in a way that will very much encourage save scumming, which generally means its not working that well.

Also if you are doing a build like, say pistols with energy shields, then you need 3 or 4 good power cores. The power core is most important for the shield. But even so there is no chance in hell you will get 3-4 quality 87-89 cores before you finish the mid tier and get to the next tier of crafting.

I think currently the worst thing about the stores is that some components really need to show up in a pretty regular manner. One of the reasons to have a robust crafting system is to reduce the dependence on RNG not increase it. I just don't think being able to make a good energy shield via crafting should be heavily RNG dependent. The whole point of stores is to make this not the case really. You spend an asston of extra money so that you can get pretty close to what you want. Stores do not currently work that way. They are currently rather bad slot machines.

Consider for a second that things with no quality at all, like the barrels on guns whose sole purpose is to be a selector into different gun sub-types are randomly generated. You go to a store wanting to make a .45 pistol fine there is variance in the quality of the Hammerer frame, but why do I have to wait around for a whole frigging hour because the store only genreated 9mm and no .45 pistol barrels which have no quality rating anyway? Really its assinine. There is nothing fun or interesting about that, its just fucking with people. Fuck yeah I will save scum that if its that way on release. If I invest 80 points into two different crafting skills and accumulated the other three parts I want but due to bad luck no shop has a .45 barrel? Fuck that.

In other words if the game's shop work the way they currently do there is almost no chance I will not do at least a modest amount of save scumming on a crafting character just because I see absolutely no point in waiting around to get the thing that determines whether I am making a .45 or 9mm and has not effect on how good the gun is. Perhaps I might consider not save scumming if it were only quality at issue. Similarly the ability to get certain modules vs other is clearly not balanced and I would probably save scum that as well. It is extremely easy to get high/med/low shield modules and very hard to get, for example, a gun smart module. With the current system I would be ok not save scumming for shield modules and would almost certainly save scum for gun smart modules simply because having a shop actually spawn one is too rare and I do not want to wait forever to use some good frame I bought or found because I find one anywhere and may never actually find one, screw that noise.


Suppose I want to make a Tactical Vest that uses the plate that gives a bit more DT rather than the typical plate. The generation in stores on those is low enough, that most people will save scum it. But why? Those plates trade increased DT for less resistance. That should be what determines whether people make one vest or the other not the bad drop tables in the shops. Its fine to have a high quality resin plate be rare, but having the plates themselves be rare is kinda dumb when put into context.
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
Alfons yeah, I understand some people dislike randomness, although in Underrail's case most of the item randomness is only different variations of the same base item or same item type, not cheap diablo-style totally random system. Good thing Styg allows easy savescumming so it's possible to metagame the randomness away if you want.

Sheepherder yup, he has a good point. That's why I asked if he (or you, or anyone else!) can list more items that seem to be too rare. There are hundreds of components and thousands of items so I wouldn't be surprised if some are simply overlooked. I've tried to make sure there's at least one static place to buy each general blueprint, but I don't savescum shops much myself (mostly for testing/datamining for underrail wiki), so I don't have a clear picture of items that could be underrepresented in shops.

Its not just too rare. Some thing are say 50/50 and shouldn't be, such as the gun barrel example. You can savescum the correct barrel pretty fast, but in non-savescum land even that 50/50 can be multiple hours worth of shop re-gens.
 

TwinkieGorilla

does a good job.
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
5,480
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
Hey I'm not fucking crazy, right? Is this passage new?



I distinctly remember the pain in the ass-ed-ness of having to circle back around every @#$@& time.

Also, while we're at it, can we get rid of this fuckin' guy?



I feel like I'm playing a fucking atari 2600 game every time I'm trying to make my way to the NW/SW exits.
 

gestalt11

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
629
These are estimations of rarity on various items the esimation is whether they even spawn at all.

-Blue ammo BP (all types)- extremely rare -> you can scum therse from these from the two faction vendors in junkyard
-Power cores - usually generate about 1/3 -> these should always be guaranteed. In fact most electronics shops should have more than one when the generate there are a ton recipes for multiple different types of objects that requires these (guns, shields, NV goggles, cloaking devices). This is one of the most egregious violators when it come to RNG spawning, its just not practicable.
-Gun Barrels - about 1/2 -> its pointless to have these be RNG based. All types should just spawn always. You always get some gun barrels but whether its the type you want, good luck.
-Circular wave amplifier - about 1/5 -> these are very important parts, they are great for shields and HUGELY important for crit pistol builds with energy pistols
-Gun Smart modules - about 1/10 -> These are really important for multiple gun builds and types. Almost any crafter will probably make multiple guns that use this. Note: this does not spawn in the tier 1 stuff unless you scum the two factoin vendors in junkyard
-Various Energy pistol Emitters - about 1/3 or 1/4


Most crafting stuff comes down to about a 1/3 chance of showing up. For example the various things to make goggles (motion tracking lens). Somethings are more rare like 1/10 for example the night vision component for making goggles. Somethings are clearly limited by game phase/act although not entirely since they can show up randomly in some vendors or as drops (gun smart module or energy shield BP).

If you want to get a gun smart module early scumming the faction vendors will take about 20-30 tries not 5 tries like the core city electronic store. This is because those vendor have much more variety. The same can be said of scumming the weapons shop in Core City. Technically he can spawn better electronics stuff than his neighbor who sells only electronics. If you really really wanted an awesome (quality 100+) plasma core or gun smart module you would scum that Core City weapons store but it would take you about 100 tries for either one. Its not worth doing but that is the way it works.


I don't actually care that much about the way the faction vendors work or the Core City weapon store. If people really want to savescum those for the absolute best in tier, sure do it. But its usually not worth the effort. Although frankly it can be for some things.

But a lot of the craftng stuff are just soooooooooo favorable towards save scumming. Not for quality but just to make what you want spawn. You want to make some +detection goggle? You can save scum a motion tracking lens up in a few tries. You do it natively? You might have to run around to 3 different stores then wait an hour and do that three store circuit. Just to make ANY version of those goggles. This is kind of dumb for something so specialized that you often find dropped versions of anyway. Perhaps having the nightvision component be rarish is ok but many of these other ones do really nothing but make a lot of people save scum. The worst offender of this is Plasma Cores since they are required in so many things and often don't spawn at all. Getting a Plasma Core is not all that hard, scumming one up is like 1-5 tries. But that is sort of the entire point. If someone is going to an electronics shop is it essentially guaranteed that they need a plasma core. Why? Because every single recipe that you go there for, excluding gun parts, requires one. So when you have 3 shops to check and a 1/3 chance it will often be the case you lose out and have to wait around for an hour for no good purpose. Yes you can save up all the plasma cores you ever find, but that isn't really the point. You can do this anyway just to save yourself money. Ideally Plasma core should be guaranteed and the reason you would save them is a) you found a really high quality one or b) it saves you a lot of money to do so. Not because the store generation does not match the BP use frequency.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
I save scummed...

I'm playing the same game, and have no problem that you have. Never was in Core City, only Foundry - found at least one core 80+.
Never wasshort on barrels, because I buy for the future barrels I'll need.

I have a sad conclusion - it's not game who forced you to savescum. It is you.
 

Ellef

Deplorable
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Dec 29, 2014
Messages
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Location
Shitposter's Island
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I tried to hold off, but it's time for another early access play through. How are melee or crossbows builds operating? I normally don't stray far from efficient assault rifle builds but i think i'll try something slightly more left field.
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

Kamelåså!
Patron
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
20,317
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DiNMRK
Hey I'm not fucking crazy, right? Is this passage new?



I distinctly remember the pain in the ass-ed-ness of having to circle back around every @#$@& time.

It was there in my last partial playthrough a couple of months ago.

I tried to hold off, but it's time for another early access play through. How are melee or crossbows builds operating? I normally don't stray far from efficient assault rifle builds but i think i'll try something slightly more left field.

People discussed them a couple of pages back. Crossbows are playable, but currently don't offer anything that other weapons can't do better.
I ran a melee build (giant electric hammer) and it's hilarious. The damage output is obscene.
 

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
gestalt11 The most rare item I've seen so far is rapid reloader. How odten have you encountered those?

TwinkieGorilla While we're at it let's either get rid off or change the pathing of the fucking dogs. I had those assholes block the exit to a shop on more than one occasion. Either that or add the push from fallout.

Fenix What's your point? The point isn't that you can't play with the current system in place. Worst case scenario is that you check all stores or leave the PC idle for 90 minutes. That just seems like a lackluster solution when you can just make certain items constant. It's not like that's a foreign idea to Underrail.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
Hey I'm not fucking crazy, right? Is this passage new?
You might be, it's as old as Junkyard itself. :)

While we're at it let's either get rid off or change the pathing of the fucking dogs. I had those assholes block the exit to a shop on more than one occasion. Either that or add the push from fallout.
Good news: that already exists. Just click the offending dog and it'll move away.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
I tried to hold off, but it's time for another early access play through. How are melee or crossbows builds operating? I normally don't stray far from efficient assault rifle builds but i think i'll try something slightly more left field.

Melee is VERY satysfactory build to play, I can assure you. )) Pope Amole II's let's plays clearly shows that crossbows more enjoyable then sniper rifles (because latter are bad).

What's your point? The point isn't that you can't play with the current system in place. Worst case scenario is that you check all stores or leave the PC idle for 90 minutes. That just seems like a lackluster solution when you can just make certain items constant.

It's absolutely normal solution, this induces a totally natural behavior for people to buy in store. I nevar evar belive that you didn't met a single one needed you barrel before you hit level 10.
It's mean that you didn't visit merchants at all - and who is to blame for this?
 
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