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Underrail is actually quite good

Discussion in 'Underrail' started by PorkyThePaladin, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. Vrab Novice

    Vrab
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    You can avoid all of those tchortlings. They start appearing after a stacking debuff ticks up to a certain number of stacks, IIRC it was 10. If you find cover (leave the map in that time, or get into shelters that are located on the maps for that purpose) and wait for the stacks to fall off before going back in, you should be fine. You can also reduce the speed by which the debuff stacks up by doing a quest for certain someone.

    It is kinda meh, I'm not denying that. Constantly keeping an eye on a debuff stacking up is straining and it could have been done better. But it's not the wall people make it out to be. My wall was different, I couldn't figure out how to do a certain thing, not how to kill or avoid enemies, but it still worked out somehow after walking in circles for hours. There are some very good episodes in deep caverns, it's a shame to miss them.
     
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  2. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    This is like one of those "if you put your small finger into your left nostril, spit over your right shoulder 3 times, and spin around" advices. I fully realize that it's possible to compelte DC, heck maybe even with my build, but it would involve a lot of guide reading, tedium, and playing in a completely different way than 90% of the game. So my question would be ... why?

    I never understood the point of including a super-difficult and tedious end-game section in RPGs. It's almost like, hey, you bought our game, you put the effort and time into it, so to thank you, here is a giant FUCK YOU! A proper end-game should be the resolution of story-lines, closure, and the fruitful culmination of character building/mechanics learning done throughout the game. So why waste time on this crap?
     
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  3. lukaszek Arcane

    lukaszek
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    underrail gives you trap choices and they are not apparent.

    Case with most one trick pony builds is that at some point you reach a wall. Its not telegraphed, all you can do is either gain lvls and adapt, skip content, or start over. You were lucky(or not) to not experience it until DC.
    For example imagine playing knife build and find out that there are enemies with high dr AND total crit immunity. If stabbing is all you do, well...
     
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  4. Jack Dandy Arcane

    Jack Dandy
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    Wow, sure is great that the weapon skill is 'melee' and not specifically 'knife' then, huh?

    The game supplies MANY ways to bypass 'walls' like the kind you mentioned.
     
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  5. epeli Prophet

    epeli
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    [​IMG]

    It's always nice to see initial reactions to DC where the hopelessness is downright tangible. Cherish that feeling, you will experience it only once. But watching this spectacle turns sad when someone is so intimidated by prevalent memes, they give up right there without even trying. It's not as impossible as it seems. You can do it!


    ...then you have plenty of room for a couple of feats to compensate for those weaknesses.
     
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  6. Parabalus Arcane

    Parabalus
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    Don't sweat it too much, people here are awfully full of themselves.

    Character builds in UR have very different power levels, if you were playing fist or PSI you'd laugh at the speedbump DC is. You got unlucky at chargen, GGWP.

    It used to be way worse too before patches, just a completely different game than what you enjoyed before you stepped on that elevator.
     
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  7. Vrab Novice

    Vrab
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    Hmmm... it's literally the most direct and obvious method of beating the problem you described. Tchortlings spawn, when they do spawn they overwhelm you. If you want them not to spawn you do x. It's not exactly gaming the game or doing something complex. It doesn't even have anything to do with your build. It is time consuming I guess, might be annoying. I won't argue that it's pleasant because that is a matter of taste, but it's not "putting your small finger into your left nostril", it's just common sense.

    When all is said and done I kind of liked DC, despite the problems I ran into there, because it made the game feel like survival horror, with limited supplies and all. Not like there aren't things stacked all over the place on shelves, but it was a pressure in the back of my mind all the way to the end. It is as a whole on average the weakest part of the game, I'd grant that. But some of the constituent elements are very well done and IMO on their own better than what I've seen in the rest of the game and some (survival horror vibe) can't be compared to anything else.
     
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  8. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    What are you talking about? Do x?

    What you said in the post before the last one:

    "They start appearing after a stacking debuff ticks up to a certain number of stacks, IIRC it was 10. If you find cover (leave the map in that time, or get into shelters that are located on the maps for that purpose) and wait for the stacks to fall off before going back in, you should be fine. You can also reduce the speed by which the debuff stacks up by doing a quest for certain someone."

    This is all wiki stuff, so please don't act like any of this is in any way obvious or clear to a player just entering DC. I already said, yes, you can beat the Caverns by reading the Wiki/guides and maybe if your build allows it, but you are missing the point altogether. A game area where you need to advance by reading the Wiki is already retarded by definition. In this case especially so, because it essentially introduces all brand new gameplay elements, in the last 10% or so of the game. That is the height of retarded design. Underrail is mostly a good game, but don't do our hobby a disfavor by defending terrible practices.
     
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  9. epeli Prophet

    epeli
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    No PorkyThePaladin, you are supposed to figure it out on your own. Too bad Vrab spoiled that for you, but if you post about how you're stuck/overwhelmed, it's just natural that some people will try to help you.

    New is good, but you give Underrail more credit than it deserves on that front - this particular thing is not all that new... You must've seen very similar use of environmental status effects earlier. Remember Silent Isle? Another case where you had to read the status effect and think about your situation, try to figure out how to avoid it. But why you would be so mad about a game introducing something new in the first place? What is it that you expect from an RPG? Monotonous grind with no surprises or new challenges? I just don't understand.
     
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  10. Parabalus Arcane

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    Cmon, stop blindly fanboying so much - if you got lucky and picked a strong build at CC you can ignore all those "fun" DC mechanics and bulldoze your way through. If you up the difficulty at the last 10% and introduce scarcity, builds damn better be tightly balanced, while you yourself know they aren't even close.
     
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  11. Vrab Novice

    Vrab
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    It's wiki stuff the way any other information contained in wiki is wiki stuff. If you suddenly notice a debuff that stacks up in intensity and has something about "eye of Tchort is upon you" in its description and that makes enemies appear and attack after reaching a nice, round number of stacks at which point the icon even changes, it's not exactly counter intuitive to try to run away or hide lol. It's almost as if you complain about taking damage and then dismiss suggestion to wear armor as being retarded and only available by reading wiki. There was a bit later on where I had this exact feeling you are describing now, but for whatever reason it popped up for you at a banal spot that only requires reading comprehension, which you seem to have. It is a mystery. Idk what to tell you.


    Well he did say he's giving up so it didn't seem like I'm doing any damage. I thought it's just an obvious thing he might have missed, not an insurmountable wiki-only problem that requires breaking the 4th wall to overcome. Live and learn!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  12. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    Actually, on Silent Isle, it was a lot more logical. There was an effect that said something like "you feel some malignant presence", and then after a while, you'd get a bi-locuted or what not. So the connection was somewhat clear, and you could run into that cave, to lose the copy. In DC, on the other hand, the Tchort debuff already had an effect listed (something like your skills are debuffed by 40% or whatever), so it was not clear at all that it ALSO has the effect of summoning those spawns. If you go in without a wiki, you would more likely assume that there is just a lot of them (until you live long enough to see them spawning inside buildings without entryways), or that they spawn regardless of any triggers. Only AFTER many frustrating re-loads you would start getting the connection between stacks and spawning (or after giving up and reading the wiki). And this is terrible design. And even then, what logical solution can you come up with? Hide form the eye? But how? Do you get any information on how the eye works, what stops it? Or is it just a bunch of trial and error reloads (or wiki for people who are too old for that shit)?

    You should not be introducing new mechanics at the end of the game. If they are good mechanics, use them for the entire game. If they are bad mechanics (as in DC), don't use them at all.

    See my response above.
     
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  13. Spark Mandriller Scholar

    Spark Mandriller
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    I worked it out without needing to reload at all. The first time I entered the complex I started getting a stacking debuff so I ran through in a hurry. Didn't think it'd spawn anything, I just assumed there'd be preset enemies like usual and I didn't want to fight them with a massive penalty. Then later I came back to loot and wasn't worried about the debuff since I thought the area was clear, until I turned a corner and saw a Tchortling. I thought maybe it had spawned based off my progress or I just never noticed it or something before so I killed it, stealthed, and immediately went for the exit to get rid of Eye of Tchort since I didn't want to fight with the massive penalty. Saw a few more Tchortlings on the way out, but after I came back they were all gone. Seemed pretty obvious to me that Eye of Tchort spawned them, which also explained why the game had a debuff that lowered combat skills in an area which initially didn't have any enemies to fight anyway.
    You get told about the safe zones if you talk to Leo, too. You talk to Six when you enter DC and he tells you to talk to the Faceless. You talk to the Faceless and they tell you to talk to Leo. You talk to Leo and he tells you about safe zones and also gives you the Creeping Dread resistance feat so things get easier. He also actually tells you that Eye of Tchort is what spawns Tchortlings, but he's kinda oblique about it so you might not get it at first. I didn't.
    I found the complex to be the easiest part of DC. The labyrinth and the mushroom forest full of respawning turrets were way worse. Though the mushroom forest is incredibly simple now I know to bring bio resistance equipment.
     
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  14. epeli Prophet

    epeli
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    Parabalus it can't be helped, but hold on. Porky seems to be mad about the status effect implementation specifically. I want to get to the bottom of this first.


    PorkyThePaladin um, it seems you completely missed the mechanics of the Silent Isle effect. Strange Feeling - "You feel the darkness clasp around you and an ominous presence in the back of your mind." It's the darkness. The darkness of the isle is playing tricks in your mind, which I think Broderick also hints at in his stories. You can avoid it if you stay away from the darkness. Mindshrooms, flares, any light works. I always thought this idea could be communicated better to the player simply by adjusting the isle's ambient light level, so the darkness becomes a prominent visual feature and the area is visually distinct from generic watery cave #751.

    The DC effect has two stages. Since they also have a direct effect, that's also listed. After the fluff text. Status effect don't normally have any fluff so these should stand out in a very obvious manner.
    Creeping Dread - "You feel a deep primordial fear creeping in the back of your head." This is the one that keeps ticking up until the eye spots you. That's about all it does. If not scary, it should at least tell you that something's fucky.
    Eye of Tchort - "The eye of Tchort is upon you, nearly paralyzing you with fear." You're screwed only after the eye sees you. The connection of Tchort seeing you and his underlings finding you should be fairly obvious, from both the effect and actually seeing things unfold as you play. But you aren't expected to figure it out immediately. As Spark already pointed out, eventually you get more information.

    I can't agree that any of DC is terrible design, but a lot of it is very risky design. Leaving the initiative to the player and placing so much trust in the player's ability to figure shit out (there's still lots of this in DC, not just the status effect - and originally there used to be even more) is bound to backfire. You'd think an oldschool RPG would be the best possible place for that sort of no-handholding thing, but even here it won't work for everyone. When you think about this, you start to understand why AAA games are dumbed down for the lowest common denominator. They avoid any sort of risky design that might not please everyone. I'm happy some indies still have the opportunity to take this type of risk, and the guts to stand behind it even when the end result doesn't please everyone.

    PS.
    They have their own entryways. Have you noticed small holes in the ground? That's where they come from, as far as I can tell. If Underrail had higher budget, tchortlings would probably have animations for crawling out of the holes and diving back as the eye commands. Now the game just tries to (de)spawn them when you can't see them. I like how that works, makes them extra creepy with an ethereal feel. But the haters just see respawning bullshit.
     
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  15. Chaotic_Heretic Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Shitposter

    Chaotic_Heretic
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    PorkyThePaladin is too used to popamole.

    Not saying DC is perfect; it has its more than its fair share of issues but Porky's butthurt with the tchort spwning reeks of popamoleism
     
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  16. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    You are kinda supporting my point with the above. Are the mechanics of Silent Isle tied to darkness? If so, then it's just as obfuscated as DC. When I first came there, I thought the thing had to do with the psi beetles. Early on, you are told that in large numbers, psi beetles can produce powerful psychic stuff, which that clone seemed to be, and there were a lot of them on that isle. If I remember correctly, I couldn't pick them off in time, before the clone came, so I just used the cave to get around it.

    Note the highlighted parts. They sure make it seem as though you were playing some build that allows you to move around DC and learn. Like say a stealth build. Or a power build that can go toe to toe with the spawn. This is the point you are missing about what I and Parabalus are saying. Some of us did not have those builds.

    I had a frail gunslinger build without any stealth or sustain. It worked just fine for the other 95% of the game, but was fairly useless in DC. I would walk around the Biocorp facility, and a short time later, the spawn would appear. I couldn't stealth around them, or kill them past the first few, to live long enough to learn the level.

    THIS is why you cannot introduce new mechanics in the last 5-10% of the game. You gimp people's builds without them being able to do anything about it, after they already completed most of the game. Please stop defending terrible design.

    If you think I am a popamoler, let me just mention that I completed Ultima Underworld without online hints. There is good design, there is bad design, and there are people who say "git good" on online forums.
     
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  17. lukaszek Arcane

    lukaszek
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    just create new/better character already
     
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  18. Spark Mandriller Scholar

    Spark Mandriller
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    You don't need a special build, you just need to hurry. Exactly how far did you get? Did you talk to Leo? Because he does tell you about safe zones.
     
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  19. Twiglard Learned

    Twiglard
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    It shows that dialogue written for Junkyard and earlier is worse quality. Same for the quests. But it's not a pacifist-type RPG. You have to kill stuff all the time. The systems work and all that, but it's not PST or an Arcanum zero-kill run.

    There's plenty of well-written and accurate scientific dialogue by PhrygianDominant (medicine, physics). I went through his bits and verified them. Never knew GP's prescribe placebo to adults, during normal practice. Never learned about neutrinos either. I haven't seen a single instance of Dan Brown-ish mumbo-jumbo. That guy is a serious polymath and I'm his fanboy.

    Events in the gameworld and the main quest, you can actually skip if you're sleepwalking through the game. It's like STALKER's monolith ending. There's not much analysis to get it all right, but lots of it is in purely optional quests, logs and dialogs. Only by aggregating tidbits of information relating to each of gameworld's category can you answer the questions. It's a fun well-written story, and it's fun reading logs and piecing it all together. Or you can skip almost all of it and get a Junkyard-quality experience. Then there's a secret followup from an optional quest that's hard to receive at all. It answers few of the questions as well.

    So here's a few questions people complaining about the story don't know the answers to:
    Show Spoiler
    - who are the Faceless and how were they created?
    - ever seen non-human humanoid creatures in the Institute? What do they have in common with the Faceless?
    - what exactly was the Hollow Earth Incident?
    - what is that Tchort devil, who made it and how?
    - who are the others like Tanner and why the fuck are they here?
    - plenty of details of what various Biocorp incarnations did, including info from the secret followup quest
    - what the fuck was Thallo talking about and why?
    - which member of Reformed Biocorp could now call himself Eidein? (speculation, not explicitly stated)
    - where could Underrail's ingame areas be placed on Earth? (somewhat speculative)
    Yeah there's a big difficulty spike. It was even worse at release. The depressing DC atmosphere doesn't help if you're losing a lot. It's not The Glow with that feeling of curiosity and wonder.

    Show Spoiler
    For Tchortling Sowers, use Chemical Assault Protectorate armor in DC. Unless you can craft some Mutated Dog Infused Leather boots. That negates their spray attack entirely. The melee/ranged tentacle attacks your shield mostly tanks.

    Mk4 grenades you can make even before Depot A and they make a heavy contribution to damage, especially with the Grenadier feat. You can even buy up to Mk4 at Protectorate's, works well with Mercantile 105.

    Jackhammering the walls in Hollow Earth areas won't work unless you can kill all the spawn–too much noise. Stay in Warehouses and run through Hollow Earth from place to place.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  20. HeatEXTEND Arbiter

    HeatEXTEND
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    honestly any crpg player who doesn't like UR can go suck a dick
     
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  21. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

    Blaine
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    There's never been any actual controversy on this point, only much ado about nothing.

    It's true that Underrail is light on story and dialogue, but then again, the development team had no dedicated writers. When you consider what was produced by a non-writer in his non-native language, what's there is pretty much a miracle. It helps to build the world and sets the tone and atmosphere, but no, there's nothing incredible about it in and of itself. It's a functional element that works, and nothing more.

    If I have a choice between a bunch of latte-sipping failed novelists or actual programmers with technical skill developing a game, I'll take the programmers pretty much every single time. The "too many writers" phenomenon is how we ended up with a bunch of shitty Unity games. Some, like PoE (also a Unity game), fell on their faces trying way too hard to have, like, really good and sophisticated and awesome writing, and it ended up feeling forced and pretentious... because it was. It turns out that mining ethnic folklore books for quirky words to incorporate does not automatically guarantee a sense of mystery or profundity.

    The viewpoints of the Darth Roxors of the Codex have their merits, but sometimes they're taken to extremes in the neverending quest for Kodex Kool Kredits. The turn-based combat system is fantastic; the opinions of those who poo-poo it because it's not party-based or because enemies respawn can be safely discarded. There's a huge variety of builds, and they all play very differently, so much so that trying a new one is a compelling reason to play through the game again. Whether or not you'll like Underrail depends upon where your priorities lie. If you're a storyfag or a lazy, impatient rato who requires constant action and teleportation, then it might not be for you. Personally, I value atmosphere, a sense of mystery, environmental challenge, exploration, and solid world-building, and Underrail delivers those in spades.

    The rivalry between UR and AoD is also a factor. There's nothing more butthurt than the dedicated AoD fanboy who must live with the fact that Underrail sold twice as many copies and receives several times more attention than their beloved teleportation and speed-reading testing software, despite both having received absolutely zero real publicity other than word of mouth and Steam keyword searches. I love AoD too, but apparently we must choose teams, and I know which one I'll root for if they're in the ring together.
     
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  22. HeatEXTEND Arbiter

    HeatEXTEND
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    nope, both just great
     
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  23. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

    Blaine
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    You must be new here.

    You'd think that, but I received a stern lecture for posting in the Underrail thread too much and not enough in the AoD thread. To be fair, I think that lecture was from Goral, AKA the Codex's #1 AoD superfan.
     
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  24. agentorange Arcane Patron

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    This can probably be attributed solely to the superficially discernible settings of the respective games. Somewhat funny because both games have post-apocalyptic settings with gas masks and psychic powers but Underrail is immediately recognizable as having these (very popular) elements, whereas the supernatural and science fiction elements of AoD are well hidden and superficially it looks like the sort of historical RPG that most people would have no interest in.

    I dislike the item system, crafting and quest structures in Underrail, but I like the combat and everything else. I never saw it as any sort of competition between it and AoD, though, and I'm pretty sure most people on the codex who bought/played one of them did the same for the other.
     
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  25. Goral Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

    Goral
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    lol
    WTF are you lying? The truth is you're a bigger UR fan than I am AoD fan, I got my tag after weaboo-lover Crooked Bee got butthurt and it was at the time when I've barely even posted in the Iron Tower forums. For example you've defended DC without even playing it and tried to rig the GOTY 2015 poll for which you were disqualified :D. What's funnier there are even bigger UR fans than you but none of them has a fanboy tag :].

    P.S.
    Also, your choice of words "to be fair" is hilarious in this context where you've written untrue insinuations. But surprise me and find a quote where I said what you claim.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
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