Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Visperas]

Can somebody lie to me and say that the saves will be imported to the final game so I can start playing?

 

[Blaine]

Can somebody lie to me and say that the saves will be imported to the final game so I can start playing?

But starting over will be half the fun!

Saying goodbye to these piles of Charon coins and advanced repair kits is going to be pretty tough, though. This game is like Fallout in another way: After a certain point, you'll be rolling in skrilla. In fact, going hunting around shops periodically for stuff I want or need reminds me a lot of Fallout 2 and San Francisco.

 

[StaticSpine]

Why is the game so cheap? Sure looks pretty good. Or is it only the "preorder/early access" price? I will probably feel bad - it sounds like it's worth more.

Buy some extra copies and share the joy with your friends!

 

[Blaine]

• spend 135 Charon on knives
• recycle into approx. 400 metal scraps
• craft 10 Advanced Mechanical Repair Kits
• use kits to repair various mechanical loot
• collective resale value increased by 700 Charons
• 418.52% profit

That's with 0 Mercantile, by the way. This is a loophole that probably should and likely will be closed, since Styg has specifically stated that the lower durability of loot is to prevent it being resold for a fortune, but I sure love it. Of course, you do need the crafting skill, so maybe it'll stay in.

 

[SuicideBunny]

ever the capitalist, i see.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Given the thought and work, I would consider that just reward unless "various mechanical loot" was on one map.

 

[Blaine]

Well, the thing is, you receive a number of scraps that's nearly 1:1 with an item's durability divided by 10.

Knives (and balaclavas, in the case of fabric scraps) are simply the most extreme case, since they're very inexpensive but can still have massive durabilities. It isn't that much work to snap up knives, recycle, make kits, and inject lots more Charons into dropped loot.

Crafting has three primary benefits: creating far better and custom-tailored gear than can be found in any shop, carry weight efficiency in the field (organs weighing you down? Carry ampoules and extract humours as you go; recycle cheap, heavy gear, and turn it into kits), and finally, making absolutely obscene amounts of money with relatively minimal effort.

I personally tend to think that shops should offer better gear to non-crafters (halfway between the crap you get as-is [serviceable, but still crap], and good crafted stuff) and that profit loopholes should be closed or at least reduced, in order not to "negatively punish" non-crafters too much.

If you don't believe the stuff for sale in shops is shit compared to what you can make with crafting, try out crafting some TiChrome triple-spiked armor that adds shitloads of damage to your melee attacks. You will never, ever find any armor with spikes that powerful in a shop. I always see, like... "adds 1-2 melee damage."

 

[Shadowfang]

Nice findings Blaine, or should i say Al Fabet?

 

[epeli]

I don't know if I strictly had to or not, because I didn't even try. I just figured I'd be better off coming back to deal with them later. On my first playthrough as psi, after the GMS compound, I used Persuade to get the keycard back and got to experience the joys of little shits dealing 12 damage a hundred thousand times in a row, and then Mom coming around the corner to finish me off.

I somehow doubt that psi or stealth (or both) would fare any better than melee, unless traps are used.

You see, those mommy burrowers are especially annoying for slow heavy melee because it's the only ranged enemy AI that actively kites you and builds like that often won't have much in terms of CC and gap closers.
In comparison stealth builds (especially ranged ones) have easy time in the GMS burrower nest, they can wait for the patrols to move away and kill the burrowers one by one before they know what hit 'em.

Crafting has three primary benefits: creating far better and custom-tailored gear than can be found in any shop, carry weight efficiency in the field (organs weighing you down? Carry ampoules and extract humours as you go; recycle cheap, heavy gear, and turn it into kits), and finally, making absolutely obscene amounts of money with relatively minimal effort.

You got it. It's nice to see a relatively new player who thinks crafting is too good, because some people on the official Underrail forums still think crafting is useless. But in their defense, they got used to very old versions of the game. Cognitive bias is a funny thing.

The money-making "loophole" isn't too bad IMO. Crafters are always going to get more cash and better stuff than non-crafters, there's no way around that.
But recycling could probably use a little bit of rebalancing, again. Maybe if scraps gained was based on durability and base value instead of durability only, so those cheap items would yield less scraps?

 

[Blaine]

It might be advisable to simply allow anyone to recycle with no skill requirements. The scraps could then be given to an NPC (or a computerized "automatic assembly machine", for example) that turns them into kits for an appropriate fee per kit crafted, and the added inconvenience of having to walk to the NPC in the first place. That way, non-crafters get a little piece of the pie, and crafters lose nothing.

Or, perhaps there might be a portable recycling machine that costs quite a lot of Charons, weighs 5 pounds, and will recycle any items with durability ratings, but at a loss of approx. 25% of the scraps.

These are super-easy ideas to come up with, and if the game is moddable at all, these sorts of additions will be easily accomplished without anyone pestering Styg about their highly specific personal preferences for what should be in the game.

 

[Shadowfang]

Doing a pistols expert playthrough and i wanted to know if the Gunsliner perk messes with Steadfast Aim.
I am guessing that Steadfast Aim only takes into account the normal ap usage before the dex and gunslinger bonus, but you never know.

 

[Blaine]

Doing a pistols expert playthrough and i wanted to know if the Gunsliner perk messes with Steadfast Aim.
I am guessing that Steadfast Aim only takes into account the normal ap usage before the dex and gunslinger bonus, but you never know.

Steadfast Aim specifically mentions "base action points," or in other words, whatever is displayed on the weapon's tooltip. Taking Gunslinger won't reduce its effects, because base action points never change.

In order to see your "real" action point cost, you can press C and check the Combat tab, or check it while in actual combat.

 

[Blaine]

Here's something I've discovered as I've played: Metal boots and helmets are shit, even if you don't mind having 0 movement points. Pig leather tabis reduce melee AP cost by 1, add +1 CON, and weigh almost nothing, which even aside from the extra movement you get is in my view vastly superior to a bit of extra DR at the cost of immense weight and even more armor penalty, especially if you're using a dagger or a TiChrome sledge. With the Lifting Belt and -1 AP boots, you can swing a TiChrome sledge three times in a single turn.

In fact, I still use the Jackknife as my sidearm for killing weak or almost-dead enemies and so on (to scrounge AP or save on batteries and electronic durability on my main weapon), since with armor spikes adding extra damage and being able to swing it 7 times for 49 AP, it's actually an extremely potent weapon.

Helmets are pretty much the same: You'll get crit slightly less and have slightly higher DR, but they weigh a ton and reduce your detection. A pair of NVGs with +detection or +1 PER for secrets/if you branch out into Guns at higher levels that weighs far less is superior.

 

[epeli]

Shadowfang, it's just as Blaine said. The list on steadfast aim page might be a little bit inaccurate though, all firearms were rebalanced after I wrote that and I haven't re-checked them all for changes.
Oh and while I'm blabbing about the wiki... if any of you guys have any suggestions or want to help, feel free to bother me about it.

Metal boots are pretty good for ranged heavies, you can push your resistances really high with reinforced metal armor+boots, since you don't need extra melee damage nor much movement points. Adding helmet can push you over 100% mechanical res, but that's not as godly as it sounds and the perception penalty is nasty with rifles. NV goggles/psi headbands are much more useful.

 

[cherry blossom]

Wha..What is that sound? Is that the sound of... BALANCE I'm hearing? Did I get that right? You bitches bitching about the lack of balance in skill applications and the crafting economy?

Do you... DO YOU WANT TO END FUN?

 

[Blaine]

Wha..What is that sound? Is that the sound of... BALANCE I'm hearing? Did I get that right? You bitches bitching about the lack of balance in skill applications and the crafting economy?

Do you... DO YOU WANT TO END FUN?

You'll find I'm one of the top Internet anti-Sawyerists in terms of balance being a high priority. Don't confuse commentary with complaints, or with directly lobbying the developer(s) to change things to fit my particular personal preferences. I'm on record stating that developers should ignore personal preference lobbying, since design by committee is decline. One thing I failed to mention is that my piles of Charons (I'm up to 8 stacks of 999 now, working on the 9th) will for the most part never be used for anything except rolling around in like Scrooge McDuck. I'll finish the beta with 7-8 stacks still in my inventory, having done everything there is to do. A non-crafter might finish the game with a couple of stacks remaining, but still have enjoyed the game and bought all the best purchasable gear available.

Having said that, don't conflate every tweak, adjustment, or closed loophole with "Sawyerist balancing." Iteration and addressing particular issues as they crop up is a normal part of game development. If there were ways to make infinite Charons via simple buying and selling a la Morrowind's alchemy potions (for example), closing that loophole wouldn't "make the game Sawyerist" all of a sudden. Styg decided to rebalance weapons at some point, right? Is the game Sawyerist now? There's a big difference between an all-encompassing "everything must be balanced" philosophy and making reasonable, case-by-case changes to standout issues.

epeli
Yes, it subsequently occurred to me that for ranged users, going heavy is less of an issue.

 

[Zombra]

 

[Grunker]

I didn't pay attention to this game at all until now. Blaine gave me the rundown earlier today and I am now an avid follower. It looks very interesting. Is it still on schedule for final release in 2014?

Wha..What is that sound? Is that the sound of... BALANCE I'm hearing? Did I get that right? You bitches bitching about the lack of balance in skill applications and the crafting economy?

Do you... DO YOU WANT TO END FUN?

Having said that, don't conflate every tweak, adjustment, or closed loophole with "Sawyerist balancing." [...] There's a big difference between an all-encompassing "everything must be balanced" philosophy and making reasonable, case-by-case changes to standout issues.

HI! It looks like you, too, have confused your pre-emptive conclusions based on conversations with Roguey for Josh Sawyer's actual opinion! Don't worry. We're here to help!

You see, Sawyer has explicitly stated that he is not seeking an ultimate balance where "everything is equal" since, by his own words, such a thing would be impossible in complex systems even with inifinite development iteration. In fact, Sawyer's prime examples are often two similar assets of his own system design where one is clearly better than other sometimes. However his goal is to avoid any asset in the system from being useless or nigh useless.

Don't worry that you got it wrong! Today, many kids on the Codex fall into this trap! However, with careful reading of the man's actual words instead of prejudiced opinions based on an aching backside, you too can be a valuable member of the "I judge Sawyer on his own words and still find things to criticize about him" club. You see, there are many reasonable people who criticize Sawyer and his views on game balancing for all sorts of stuff, without utilizing the same strawman on repeat. As a member of the highly helpful clippy-community, I believe that you can be such a man as well!

Would you like to know more?

 

[Blaine]

 

[Grunker]

Weak.

 

[a bear named spigot]

Would you like to know more?

nope, not every post with a joke or off-hand comment referencing sawyer and balance need prompt a multi page shitfest unrelated to the game at hand.

 

[Grunker]

Would you like to know more?

nope, not every post with a joke or off-hand comment referencing sawyer and balance need prompt a multi page shitfest unrelated to the game at hand.

You missed the reference. But if you want to continue OT, you could answer my question with regards to this project's progress

EDIT: Is there a direct way to purchase this or is Steam the prefered method?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

You missed the reference.

 

[epeli]

Guys, guys, chill! Styg definitely knows how to design a game and stay true to his own vision. He reads all the feedback and knows how to interpret it, instead of trying to cater to everyone's personal tastes.

So,

It's always interesting to see how people play the game, and what they think of the balance of things from their perspective. It can be good feedback for Styg as well, right?


Grunker, final release date is "when it's done". Almost certainly won't happen this year though, the next update won't be out this month and there's more stuff to come after that.
There's no direct purchase and afaik Styg doesn't mind where you buy it from. Steam, Desura, GamersGate, indie bundles...

 

[Roguey]

Saw myself mentioned from a namesearch, a reminder that Underrail is extremely gamist and Sawyerist in its systems and it's very likely a lot more people on the Codex would hate it if I were championing it.

Of course I'll do no such thing until the full release plus months for polish, not going to have my heart broken by an indie.