Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[naossano]

I might be repeating the same thing here, but i think it need to be hammered a bit more.
It isn't about what ALL games should have in them, or shouldn't have, but variety.

A feature could work in a game, and doesn't work in another. A player might enjoy a feature, but the other player would hate it with all their guts.

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong.
All should have what they want in one game, and not have it in one another game.

Personnally, i am saying that i would love a game that feature the absence of map as a FEATURE (yes Veevoir, a FEATURE). I think it fit pretty well with Underrail, and it would be refreshing to have it in one game, to make a change for the so many games that have a map and take it for granted, while nothing should be taken for granted. You can have patterns, but it is not because something is in many other game that is mandatory for every other unreleased games.

Yet, i don't complain about people that want it. I defend what i THINK would benefit the game.

I am not RIGHT, and you aren't WRONG. Those are just opinion.
Neither my opinion or yours should be applied in every single game on earth, and no map feature is inherently better than the other.

 

[V_K]

Personally I see nothing wrong auto-labelling obvious stuff either.
My rule of a thumb is very simple: a feature must bring something to the table, either a challenge or a reward (or both). So auto-labelling a shop is fine (it just saves the time) while auto-labelling a quest target is not, because it obviously takes away the challenge of figuring out the directions.
So, considering the feature in question:
Is having to map areas manually a challenge? No, unless the maps are designed around that (with spinners, teleporters, one-way doors etc). And in Underrail they are obviously not.
Is having to map areas manually a reward in itself? Well for those who enjoy drawing maybe, but I suspect even they have more fun things to draw.
So speficially for Underrail I see no benefit in having full manual mapping. Does it mean it should have full automaps instead? Not at all. There are a ton of mechanics that would fit its kind of gameplay much better. You could have radars (that act like Ultima's gems), some sort of GPS (basically sci-fi sextants), incomplete or even misleading maps, mapping could be tied to some skills etc.

 

[Xenich]

Is having to map areas manually a challenge? No, unless the maps are designed around that (with spinners, teleporters, one-way doors etc). And in Underrail they are obviously not.

No more a challenge than managing your bag space and yet is a common feature in games like Ultima. If we take the approach of why features should be removed/automated because they aren't a challenge, well... it is going to get silly.

Is having to map areas manually a reward in itself? Well for those who enjoy drawing maybe, but I suspect even they have more fun things to draw.

It isn't about the drawing for many (though some may also enjoy this), rather it is the management and documentation of your discoveries. What is important is decided by you, not the game. You then have to consider what you deem an appropriate documentation and its relevancy to the game. Some will be anal retentive, documenting every aspect of the area, noting vendors and any specific dialog that is suspicious or relevant to a given objective. Some will simply place basic headers and general location markers leaving most to memory. How interactive or relevant the issue is really depends on the game I guess.

So speficially for Underrail I see no benefit in having full manual mapping. Does it mean it should have full automaps instead? Not at all. There are a ton of mechanics that would fit its kind of game play much better. You could have radars (that act like Ultima's gems), some sort of GPS (basically sci-fi sextants), incomplete or even misleading maps, mapping could be tied to some skills etc.

As I said, it depends on the game I guess. Does the game have detective style quests? Do you have to go back and forth between areas, talking with people, noting specifics of the environment, suspicious activity, etc... ? If so, then your map becomes a integral part of play. Being that it is such, any automation would detract from the players responsibility of play (with exceptions). That is, the mapping, noting of details, documenting interaction, etc... IS the point of play. Now many games of old played like this. Wizardry games are most notable to such. Though as you pointed out, if map making is such an important aspect of play, other implementations such as a mapping skill can provide levels of interaction to such (the exception I mentioned earlier).

So you are right, it does depend on the game, and what the responsibility of the player is concerning it. I can respect someones objection to having to map out areas by hand if maps themselves are so generic that they really are just for general area reference and have no real use past that. Though my argument was not specifically that of Underail, but just a comment about the claim that hand mapping is meaningless antiquated play.

 

[Dickie]

If you want to LARP as a cartographer, couldn't you just not open the map provided in the game?

 

[Xenich]

If you want to LARP as a cartographer, couldn't you just not open the map provided in the game?

Yeah, and if you want the game to be hardcore, you can like go naked, and only use your face to hit the keys on the keyboard! /derp

 

[Dickie]

Yeah, obviously not wearing armor and using a keyboard your face is the same as drawing your own map because you decide the one in the game doesn't have enough detail.

Sometimes, when I'm playing a game, the in-game journal doesn't have enough info, so I write my own notes on paper or in Notepad or whatever. By your logic, the journal should be completely removed for everyone because I'm using my own notes. I don't see how it follows.

 

[Xenich]

Yeah, obviously not wearing armor and using a keyboard your face is the same as drawing your own map because you decide the one in the game doesn't have enough detail.

Sometimes, when I'm playing a game, the in-game journal doesn't have enough info, so I write my own notes on paper or in Notepad or whatever. By your logic, the journal should be completely removed for everyone because I'm using my own notes. I don't see how it follows.

Really? Because through the power of literacy it can be determined the very points I was making. You might want to go back and read my posts about the subject.

Or... you can continue to look like a fucking idiot. Your call.

 

[Dickie]

I'll go with continuing to look like a "fucking idiot," I guess. It sounds here like you are arguing against a guy who doesn't see a point in having to draw maps by hand. I read your rebuttal as, "by drawing maps by hand, you get to choose the level of detail," as if this was a reason to not include a map in the game.

Is having to map areas manually a reward in itself? Well for those who enjoy drawing maybe, but I suspect even they have more fun things to draw.

It isn't about the drawing for many (though some may also enjoy this), rather it is the management and documentation of your discoveries. What is important is decided by you, not the game. You then have to consider what you deem an appropriate documentation and its relevancy to the game. Some will be anal retentive, documenting every aspect of the area, noting vendors and any specific dialog that is suspicious or relevant to a given objective. Some will simply place basic headers and general location markers leaving most to memory. How interactive or relevant the issue is really depends on the game I guess.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but sometimes I misunderstand things I read.

 

[Xenich]

I'll go with continuing to look like a "fucking idiot," I guess. It sounds here like you are arguing against a guy who doesn't see a point in having to draw maps by hand. I read your rebuttal as, "by drawing maps by hand, you get to choose the level of detail," as if this was a reason to not include a map in the game.

Is having to map areas manually a reward in itself? Well for those who enjoy drawing maybe, but I suspect even they have more fun things to draw.

It isn't about the drawing for many (though some may also enjoy this), rather it is the management and documentation of your discoveries. What is important is decided by you, not the game. You then have to consider what you deem an appropriate documentation and its relevancy to the game. Some will be anal retentive, documenting every aspect of the area, noting vendors and any specific dialog that is suspicious or relevant to a given objective. Some will simply place basic headers and general location markers leaving most to memory. How interactive or relevant the issue is really depends on the game I guess.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but sometimes I misunderstand things I read.

First response was to a guy that decided to specifically misquote me so they could appear correct in their point (I thought you were going to walk in his shoes). I am pretty hard on people at times if I think they are trolling, dishonest, or just plain stupid. Your response here shows you are none of those, and so my apologies for the harsh response.

The second response was as you saw, just a discussion on hand drawing and its relevance to game play. As I said, I am not against auto-map features in general (depending on how detailed they are or if they circumvent game play), my argument was more that hand mapping has its purpose and style, that it isn't some outdated or pointless mechanism. I guess you have to have spent years playing games and drawing maps to really appreciate its significance in play.

My quip at you was due to a common excuse I hear people make about various aspects of games being severely streamlined. I remember one back when D:OS was being made where someone stated that if people wanted more difficulty, they should not wear armor, or spend any development points.

It was a bit of a pet peeve of a response of mine that often brings damnation and hellfire upon them for the absurdity of such a statement. So that is why I sarcastically responded as I did. Again, my intent was not to dismiss someone who is capable of intelligent discussion, but to admonish someone I perceived to be lacking in such.

 

[Drowed]

I might be repeating the same thing here, but i think it need to be hammered a bit more.
It isn't about what ALL games should have in them, or shouldn't have, but variety.

Certains features shoud be present in ALL GAMES, yes. Like chosing resolution, key bindings, subtitles, blind mode, scalable fonts and interface... And maps. The absence of maps is a "feature" as much as the absence of anything else. And you can always justify it in some way if you want to: "you see, you cannot change the keys, then you need to develop your 'reflexes' (or whatever) and learn to play the game specifically designed by the company - that's part of the challenge"!

 

[naossano]

Did you read anything of what people said to defend the absence of map ?

The setting of Underrail is that of a confusing underworld in which it is easy to get lost. Not having a map is the good way to emphasis the feeling of getting lost. It COULD help the atmosphere of uncertainty of the game.
Whether you LIKE maps or not is totally acceptable, but it is not because you like a feature that it HAS to be in every games. Your preferences should not interfere with the fun of every others players.

 

[Drowed]

I did read. But this sounds exactly like I said, you can justify this "logic" to any other feature of a game. So, you cannot change the resolution? "Ah, but the game was designed to be"claustrophobic", then you need to play in a small window to really feel it". Lack of keybindings? "Part of the difficulty of the game is to learn to use the keys defined by the creator - it matches with the futuristic setting where the devices are complex and counterintuitive, reinforcing the feeling that the character is feeling in the player experience".

Alternatively, the example you used above about the map. It's the same thing.

All functions listed are things that bring convenience and comfort to the player. Leaving it out don't bring any "difficulty" or depth, it's not like it was difficult or complex to make a map on paper - it's just laborious (and here yes, a personal opinion: also boring). The only thing that its absence adds to the game is more work and time lost to the player. Of course someone might like this, as there are people who like to play the games of the most exotic/absurd ways: restricting temselves from using items, game modes, certain skills... Any self-imposed rule.

If the person doesn't like in-game maps... Just don't use it, make your own map. Provided that the game isn't designed in such a way that it *prevent* the player from progressing without it (aka, Skyrim, where the quest-compass is required for reasons of design, since the characters don't explain anything about the quests - a thing that Underrail will not do), no one can say that adding a function to the game is a matter of "taste". It's not, it's about functionality. It's as much "taste" as any other basic function - mouse support, resolution, fullscreen mode, etc.

As you said yourself: your preferences should not interfere with the fun of every others players. You can play the game without looking at the in-game map. I can't magically create one in the game. So...

 

[naossano]

You aren't forced to draw a map because there is no map ingame. Drawing a map is your choice.
Most people won't draw map. Some people will get lost. Some other will think of way of exploring that don't involve getting lost (putting rocks on the ground, for instance, or alway turn right, you name it), some will only travel when they have too, some others will try to explore every corner of the map, some others won't get lost at all. It will brings different ways of playing, ways to enhance creativity through constraints. You will have to make choice to take into account that factor. Just like not having a "teleport" travel system like in Fallout 3, makes the player have to make choices about how, when and if makes some travels.
Those way of playing wouldn't exist, if everything was served on a plate.

There is nothing wrong in wanting everything on a plate, but it shouldn't be the ONLY way to proceed.

And it bears no comparison with key binding. Key bidding are amongs settings like videos or sounds. Maps are part of the gameworld itself.
There are perfecly reasonable ways to explains the presence or absence of maps ingame, within the lore.

 

[polo]

So, i can't resist myself im starting a new playtrough this weekend. What char build would you recommend for the funz? My last build was psi/sniper or something like that. Freeze + power shot = kill, also psi armor, and stuff.

 

[Ulminati]

Max str + Melee + crafting + electroshock hammr :3

 

[polo]

I was thinking melee actually, maybe melee + grenades.

 

[Sykar]

A Starcraft Ghost type character gave me the most joy so far. Tried a nearly pure thief and a standard soldier with assault rifles and grenades so far.
Waiting now for the next update which promises some major changes to PSI.

 

[Zdzisiu]

Unarmed/Fist weapons character that just punches enemies is fun too! Only robots are a bit of a problem at the beginning due to their armour. But later you can punch stuff and run around like a gorilla on cocaine.

 

[Dickie]

Unarmed/Fist weapons character that just punches enemies is fun too! Only robots are a bit of a problem at the beginning due to their armour. But later you can punch stuff and run around like a gorilla on cocaine.

Hey, we all like fisting around here.

I found it hilarious to use a pistols/psi character with stunning effects and using execute all the time.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Either way, Styg already said he was planning on an overworld map for release and no minimap.

It would be some quality trolling if that's gonna be an overworld map indeed.

 

[Zdzisiu]

Either way, Styg already said he was planning on an overworld map for release and no minimap.

It would be some quality trolling if that's gonna be an overworld map indeed.

Hahaha yeah, so completly useless. And I would make it super detailed with places you never get to visit.

 

[naossano]

But the surface map can give clues about what you might find underneath... or not.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Either way, Styg already said he was planning on an overworld map for release and no minimap.

It would be some quality trolling if that's gonna be an overworld map indeed.

...

Best idea ever. Super detailed overland map, complete with points of interest, detailed history of areas, shit like that...

And you can never go there.

 

[da_rays]

So, i can't resist myself im starting a new playtrough this weekend. What char build would you recommend for the funz? My last build was psi/sniper or something like that. Freeze + power shot = kill, also psi armor, and stuff.

If you take oddities xp system , might wanna invest in stealth , very very useful. I'm currently rolling with a melee ( electroshock hammaaaa ) , guns and crafting dude ( mech , electro and now enough with bio for thoses health hypo. ) Lockpick + hacking for getting thoses oddities~ I am clearly not THAT strong , but im swimming ( well almost ) in money. Crafter can also not just make item ( weapon , armor adn whatnot) you can make them better and better!
Currently using electroshock Hammer v3.0 . made myself 3 suits of armor ( almost always better compared to what was on sale ). If your into that , crafting is pretty nice in this game. Time / money consumming of course.

 

[polo]

So, i can't resist myself im starting a new playtrough this weekend. What char build would you recommend for the funz? My last build was psi/sniper or something like that. Freeze + power shot = kill, also psi armor, and stuff.

If you take oddities xp system , might wanna invest in stealth , very very useful. I'm currently rolling with a melee ( electroshock hammaaaa ) , guns and crafting dude ( mech , electro and now enough with bio for thoses health hypo. ) Lockpick + hacking for getting thoses oddities~ I am clearly not THAT strong , but im swimming ( well almost ) in money. Crafter can also not just make item ( weapon , armor adn whatnot) you can make them better and better!
Currently using electroshock Hammer v3.0 . made myself 3 suits of armor ( almost always better compared to what was on sale ). If your into that , crafting is pretty nice in this game. Time / money consumming of course.

Yeah i used oddity and stealth in my last build, also after a while money was irrelevant cause i had so much. Hope that was somewhat fixed.