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Interview Tyranny Interview at GameBanshee

Dedicated_Dark

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Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
961
Location
Beyond the Grave
Isn't lvl scaling within a threshold actually good?
It will give you consistent challenge and the game world feels less game-y.
 

KevinV12000

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
749
Location
Some Lame-ass International Organization
By conquering the known world, Kyros’ Empire has imposed a single, very rigid, view of how society should operate on a large number of nations and cultures. Individuality is suppressed in favor of conforming to the Empire’s laws and traditions. Is that evil?

In Kyros’ view, it’s an absolute good. The various nations and peoples of Terratus were constantly at war with each other. Fighting over food, water, and resources would escalate into fights over pride and honor. Entire generations grew up without ever knowing what ‘peace’ was. By imposing a single law over the entire world, Kyros tries to eliminate the differences between people that lead to conflict and war. If everyone just does what they’re told, when they’re told, everyone will get along just fine.

It’s a perfect utopia, as long as you’re the one who gets to decide what everyone else should do, or are someone who agrees with what they’re being told. If you don’t – or can’t – agree, then you are brutally punished or forced to comply with the Overlord’s laws.

One of the reasons I'm dreading this game, despite being a big fan and supporter of Obsidian, is that they have not had a good history of presenting "good vs evil" scenarios or factions with any real success. To be fair, it would be the rare American, or even a Westerner, that could properly do so today as we are all creatures of the wider culture around us, and it is beyond clear that the wider culture has taken the ideological position that the absolute maximization of individual liberty is an unqualified good and that anything, under any circumstances, that inhibits, slows or threatens to reverse that maximization of liberty is, by definition, evil.

Which, of course, is another way of saying that the vast majority of gamers won't have a problem with this central aspect of the story and won't see at all the unintentionally hilarious and very misguided passage in the longer quote above. But it does present a problem for me and, I suspect, for the fellow members of my minority tribe who find the current majority's ideological position absurd, dangerous and near-certain to lead to civil violence in the near future. (Or, regarding Dallas, Baltimore and Minneapolis this year, now).

Setting aside the larger ideological disagreement, and returning to Obsidian's take on this matter's effect on games, the best example I can cite as emblematic of their problem with this eternal struggle in both men's souls and their institutions is the faction fight between the NCR and Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

The setting and the back story for these two groups is very, very well done, especially when one considers the larger ideological positions in the American mainstream referred to above. Rather than painting the NCR as the noble, democratic state extending freedom, liberty and prosperity in the name of democratic values, New Vegas treats the NCR as a much more human--which is to say, necessarily flawed--institution. If one pays attention, one soon learns that powerful agricultural interests may be driving NCR's stay in the Mojave, there are many who feel NCR's stated intention mask a more base acquisitiveness and, most amazingly through the story of Chief Hanlon, its political leadership may be sticking in a life-killing quagmire for short term gain.

Had Obsidian followed through with the same thoughtfulness it exhibited with NCR for Caesar's Legion, a real human dilemma would have been presented, one that would have reflected in a compelling way the decisions people and institutions make from time to time throughout their lives with regard to what they judge, upon sober reflection, as most indicative of the good.

However, while there are tantalizing hints that Obsidian was indeed leaning this way with regard to Caesar's Legion--most notably in the frequent hints about the Legion's bringing of order to chaos and relieving people from very real day-to-day fear for their lives--in the end the writers were unable to transcend the dictates of the current majoritarian view, leaving them actually unable to portray the Legion as anything other than a cartoon variant of evil, complete with all the bogeymen of modern university Sociology Departments. While NCR's use of violence is explicable within the logic of it as an institution, the Legion is presented as driven by mad, incoherent violence, with people executed at whim and rape seemingly more common than sex.

The in-game effect is to render New Vegas' "good vs evil" choice a laughably easy one. While there is no shortage of people who have played the Legion story line (it is, after all, just a game and no real harm is done by doing so) the *authors* of the game themselves make it abundantly clear that there is no good reason other than sheer bloodymindedness to do so. While one can easily imagine supporting an authoritarian regime to end a chaotic, violent, bloody chaos, there are not many people who can easily imagine themselves thinking "hoo-ray, rape!".

Thus, with Tyranny, I'm worried that the signs are that we're heading for the same illusory, not-well-thought-out choice. Choices and consequences don't really accrue, regardless of the number of branches scripted, when the entire body of the work is telling you that Door Number One is really the only decent option.
 

Dedicated_Dark

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
961
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Beyond the Grave
No. It's just a shortcut to shortcircuit good encounter design and placement. Not to mention game system balance.

But unless the game is segmented into multiple phases or designed very well like Gothic it'll be a broken mess. Regular lvling will be quite messy, Witcher 3 is an example of extremely poor balancing, it can be mitigated by using lvl scaling within a threshold, where each enemy type has separate thresholds. Like for instance, we can have death claws to be be lvl 40 and above, and ghouls to be within 10-30, this will create a cohesive world while creating balanced gameplay.
The placements of the enemy types can still be used in the ways like Gothic by creating two extremes, with this threshold you are effectively making the game a lot more well rounded.
 
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Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
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Granbretan
Caesar's Legion was looking to invade, demoralise and use tried an tested shock tactics against their foes, an their foes were everybody in the Mojave surely? I mean you're bound to have a bad opinion o Legion if you're in middle of a war wi em, an you could be crucified next. They are enemy. If it were NCR attacking Legion lands I imagine tactics'd be equally inhuman and impression o Republic'd be almost same if you were a native o lands across the dam.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,402
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Caesar's Legion was looking to invade, demoralise and use tried an tested shock tactics against their foes, an their foes were everybody in the Mojave surely? I mean you're bound to have a bad opinion o Legion if you're in middle of a war wi em, an you could be crucified next. They are enemy. If it were NCR attacking Legion lands I imagine tactics'd be equally inhuman and impression o Republic'd be almost same if you were a native o lands across the dam.

In contrast, in Tyranny you are the invader. It's hard to believe the social institutions of Kyros' empire won't be more fleshed out compared to the Legion's. And from the previous newspost we know that the writers seem to be enjoying themselves writing even for barbaric factions like the Scarlet Chorus - I wouldn't be surprised if they find a way to emphasize some positive aspect.
 
Last edited:

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
By conquering the known world, Kyros’ Empire has imposed a single, very rigid, view of how society should operate on a large number of nations and cultures. Individuality is suppressed in favor of conforming to the Empire’s laws and traditions. Is that evil?

In Kyros’ view, it’s an absolute good. The various nations and peoples of Terratus were constantly at war with each other. Fighting over food, water, and resources would escalate into fights over pride and honor. Entire generations grew up without ever knowing what ‘peace’ was. By imposing a single law over the entire world, Kyros tries to eliminate the differences between people that lead to conflict and war. If everyone just does what they’re told, when they’re told, everyone will get along just fine.

It’s a perfect utopia, as long as you’re the one who gets to decide what everyone else should do, or are someone who agrees with what they’re being told. If you don’t – or can’t – agree, then you are brutally punished or forced to comply with the Overlord’s laws.

One of the reasons I'm dreading this game, despite being a big fan and supporter of Obsidian, is that they have not had a good history of presenting "good vs evil" scenarios or factions with any real success. To be fair, it would be the rare American, or even a Westerner, that could properly do so today as we are all creatures of the wider culture around us, and it is beyond clear that the wider culture has taken the ideological position that the absolute maximization of individual liberty is an unqualified good and that anything, under any circumstances, that inhibits, slows or threatens to reverse that maximization of liberty is, by definition, evil.

Which, of course, is another way of saying that the vast majority of gamers won't have a problem with this central aspect of the story and won't see at all the unintentionally hilarious and very misguided passage in the longer quote above. But it does present a problem for me and, I suspect, for the fellow members of my minority tribe who find the current majority's ideological position absurd, dangerous and near-certain to lead to civil violence in the near future. (Or, regarding Dallas, Baltimore and Minneapolis this year, now).

Setting aside the larger ideological disagreement, and returning to Obsidian's take on this matter's effect on games, the best example I can cite as emblematic of their problem with this eternal struggle in both men's souls and their institutions is the faction fight between the NCR and Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

The setting and the back story for these two groups is very, very well done, especially when one considers the larger ideological positions in the American mainstream referred to above. Rather than painting the NCR as the noble, democratic state extending freedom, liberty and prosperity in the name of democratic values, New Vegas treats the NCR as a much more human--which is to say, necessarily flawed--institution. If one pays attention, one soon learns that powerful agricultural interests may be driving NCR's stay in the Mojave, there are many who feel NCR's stated intention mask a more base acquisitiveness and, most amazingly through the story of Chief Hanlon, its political leadership may be sticking in a life-killing quagmire for short term gain.

Had Obsidian followed through with the same thoughtfulness it exhibited with NCR for Caesar's Legion, a real human dilemma would have been presented, one that would have reflected in a compelling way the decisions people and institutions make from time to time throughout their lives with regard to what they judge, upon sober reflection, as most indicative of the good.

However, while there are tantalizing hints that Obsidian was indeed leaning this way with regard to Caesar's Legion--most notably in the frequent hints about the Legion's bringing of order to chaos and relieving people from very real day-to-day fear for their lives--in the end the writers were unable to transcend the dictates of the current majoritarian view, leaving them actually unable to portray the Legion as anything other than a cartoon variant of evil, complete with all the bogeymen of modern university Sociology Departments. While NCR's use of violence is explicable within the logic of it as an institution, the Legion is presented as driven by mad, incoherent violence, with people executed at whim and rape seemingly more common than sex.

The in-game effect is to render New Vegas' "good vs evil" choice a laughably easy one. While there is no shortage of people who have played the Legion story line (it is, after all, just a game and no real harm is done by doing so) the *authors* of the game themselves make it abundantly clear that there is no good reason other than sheer bloodymindedness to do so. While one can easily imagine supporting an authoritarian regime to end a chaotic, violent, bloody chaos, there are not many people who can easily imagine themselves thinking "hoo-ray, rape!".

Thus, with Tyranny, I'm worried that the signs are that we're heading for the same illusory, not-well-thought-out choice. Choices and consequences don't really accrue, regardless of the number of branches scripted, when the entire body of the work is telling you that Door Number One is really the only decent option.
While I agree with your points, you're giving Obsidian too much credit for the NCR. They didn't create the NCR, they just kept the characterization.
The Legion is where they had the chance to do it right, but they took a great concept and went overboard with making them evil. The game did a terrible job showing its qualities, while adding over the top shit like sex slaves, extreme misogyny, and even support of cannibalism.
 

mutonizer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
1,041
Really having trouble figuring out what the fuck they are trying to do with that game from what they're saying. Their premise is almost nonsensical and contradictory (keep saying evil won and yet describe regular joe smoe regime), the game-play is designed with fixed encounters and ultra heavy C&C but with level scaling, real time with pause but not tactical and no friendly fire and yet smaller party size, there are levels but it's skill based and yet use only trigger once to prevent...use...

At least for me, all this shit is disastrous PR and I'm usually on auto-buy mode whenever a western cRPG comes out.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
KevinV12000 agree with every word while I didnt make it to lLegion in NV (3dD type of game quite tiresome for me) (although I don't understand clearly a few little parts in the middle due my language skills), and I have not concerns, but don' believe even a second they can manage what they promised.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,768
They didn't create the NCR, they just kept the characterization.

The NCR wasn't a stretched-thin red-tape tangle in Fallout 2.

The Legion is where they had the chance to do it right, but they took a great concept and went overboard with making them evil. The game did a terrible job showing its qualities, while adding over the top shit like sex slaves, extreme misogyny, and even support of cannibalism.

Caesar was the law and order candidate. If you wanted law and order, the Legion was the thing. NCR? See above. House? Only concerned with his personal libertopia. You and Yes Man? Well "the Followers found that independent Vegas was even more unstable and violent than before. Old Mormon Fort became excessively burdened by the influx of patients, struggling to provide even the most basic of services."
 

a mod

Formlery Melanoma
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
1,140
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Aldebaron
One of the reasons I'm dreading this game, despite being a big fan and supporter of Obsidian, is that they have not had a good history of presenting "good vs evil" scenarios or factions with any real success. To be fair, it would be the rare American, or even a Westerner, that could properly do so today as we are all creatures of the wider culture around us, and it is beyond clear that the wider culture has taken the ideological position that the absolute maximization of individual liberty is an unqualified good and that anything, under any circumstances, that inhibits, slows or threatens to reverse that maximization of liberty is, by definition, evil.

Which, of course, is another way of saying that the vast majority of gamers won't have a problem with this central aspect of the story and won't see at all the unintentionally hilarious and very misguided passage in the longer quote above. But it does present a problem for me and, I suspect, for the fellow members of my minority tribe who find the current majority's ideological position absurd, dangerous and near-certain to lead to civil violence in the near future. (Or, regarding Dallas, Baltimore and Minneapolis this year, now).

Setting aside the larger ideological disagreement, and returning to Obsidian's take on this matter's effect on games, the best example I can cite as emblematic of their problem with this eternal struggle in both men's souls and their institutions is the faction fight between the NCR and Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

The setting and the back story for these two groups is very, very well done, especially when one considers the larger ideological positions in the American mainstream referred to above. Rather than painting the NCR as the noble, democratic state extending freedom, liberty and prosperity in the name of democratic values, New Vegas treats the NCR as a much more human--which is to say, necessarily flawed--institution. If one pays attention, one soon learns that powerful agricultural interests may be driving NCR's stay in the Mojave, there are many who feel NCR's stated intention mask a more base acquisitiveness and, most amazingly through the story of Chief Hanlon, its political leadership may be sticking in a life-killing quagmire for short term gain.

Had Obsidian followed through with the same thoughtfulness it exhibited with NCR for Caesar's Legion, a real human dilemma would have been presented, one that would have reflected in a compelling way the decisions people and institutions make from time to time throughout their lives with regard to what they judge, upon sober reflection, as most indicative of the good.

However, while there are tantalizing hints that Obsidian was indeed leaning this way with regard to Caesar's Legion--most notably in the frequent hints about the Legion's bringing of order to chaos and relieving people from very real day-to-day fear for their lives--in the end the writers were unable to transcend the dictates of the current majoritarian view, leaving them actually unable to portray the Legion as anything other than a cartoon variant of evil, complete with all the bogeymen of modern university Sociology Departments. While NCR's use of violence is explicable within the logic of it as an institution, the Legion is presented as driven by mad, incoherent violence, with people executed at whim and rape seemingly more common than sex.

The in-game effect is to render New Vegas' "good vs evil" choice a laughably easy one. While there is no shortage of people who have played the Legion story line (it is, after all, just a game and no real harm is done by doing so) the *authors* of the game themselves make it abundantly clear that there is no good reason other than sheer bloodymindedness to do so. While one can easily imagine supporting an authoritarian regime to end a chaotic, violent, bloody chaos, there are not many people who can easily imagine themselves thinking "hoo-ray, rape!".

Thus, with Tyranny, I'm worried that the signs are that we're heading for the same illusory, not-well-thought-out choice. Choices and consequences don't really accrue, regardless of the number of branches scripted, when the entire body of the work is telling you that Door Number One is really the only decent option.

Obviously simply being white or not being 100% inclusive = evil. And it's much more naked here than in their other games. So how are white guys supposed to get behind this? It's just not a game made for us but for (((other people))).

Plus everything obshitian is always banalshitboring anyway.
 

Sannom

Augur
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
947
Caesar was the law and order candidate. If you wanted law and order, the Legion was the thing.
Caesar was a warlord at the head of a slave army that just couldn't last for much longer. I think Sawyer has pretty much clarified it since then, but there is really nothing redeeming about the Legion, only something believable. As far as gray choices go, the NCR, House and Yes Man had us covered. The Legion was pretty much doomed to fail.

And it's much more naked here than in their other games.
How so?
 

KevinV12000

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Some Lame-ass International Organization
On a lighter note, I keep reading this topic as "Tranny Interview at Gamebanshee"


(Re: Old tag - Guilty as charged, and feeling it lately. I have no idea why I am over 50. I have no idea how this happened. If I hear anything on the radio I like, some guy comes on to say it's "Oldies week-end". When I see young people, I find myself moving to protect my lawn, instinctively. I don't understand Smartphones. I will be the first generation to retire into MMO-themed retirement homes, with bed-ridden old people fighting it out online. "The food is better at Stormwind Village and they have the kind of soft ice-cream where you get both chocolate and vanilla, and we're up all night ganking those tards across town in Ogrimmar Homes." I see girls I find attractive only to learn later that I'm not only old enough to be their father, but their grandfather. I remember life before ATMs. And rotary phones. And I misread words like Tyranny for Tranny or House For Sale as Hot She-Male Sex. It's not fun.)
 
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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
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Caesar was a warlord at the head of a slave army that just couldn't last for much longer.

Caesar acknowledged that conquering Hoover Dam and turning his Legion into a standing army protecting its Rome would change it into something different. What it changed into will forever be a mystery. :M
 

a mod

Formlery Melanoma
Joined
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Messages
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Aldebaron
Caesar was a warlord at the head of a slave army that just couldn't last for much longer.

Caesar acknowledged that conquering Hoover Dam and turning his Legion into a standing army protecting its Rome would change it into something different. What it changed into will forever be a mystery. :M

Anyone who's been to hoover dam can guesss the answer is jack shit. Which is all there is around hoover dam.
 

a mod

Formlery Melanoma
Joined
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Messages
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Caesar was a warlord at the head of a slave army that just couldn't last for much longer. I think Sawyer has pretty much clarified it since then, but there is really nothing redeeming about the Legion, only something believable. As far as gray choices go, the NCR, House and Yes Man had us covered. The Legion was pretty much doomed to fail.


How so?

Leftardians always portray conservatives as authoritarian when in reality they are the authoritarian ones. I mean the evil barbarian hordes (ie whites) who crushed the roman empire are supposedly the evil ones to them but at the same time just look at the actual roman empire which was much more brutal than the 'barbarians' ever were.
 

Crescent Hawk

Cipher
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
644
Really having trouble figuring out what the fuck they are trying to do with that game from what they're saying. Their premise is almost nonsensical and contradictory (keep saying evil won and yet describe regular joe smoe regime), the game-play is designed with fixed encounters and ultra heavy C&C but with level scaling, real time with pause but not tactical and no friendly fire and yet smaller party size, there are levels but it's skill based and yet use only trigger once to prevent...use...

At least for me, all this shit is disastrous PR and I'm usually on auto-buy mode whenever a western cRPG comes out.

Kyros empire will probably be as evil as the Byzantine Empire. An Empire that trough much hardship prevented the West from becoming an Islamic shithole, sacrificed itself and started the renaissance with its falling. Apparently its the left job these days to abort the civilisation that brought unprecedented achievements since the time of the Greeks in favour of wtv "paradise" they want to bring.
 
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... "where evil won" is clickbait guise.

Evil is a complex phenomenon addressed by a variety of philosophies and spiritual traditions, the interpretation of which is naturally subject to personal opinion.

It's just tagline to ensure that people get that Kyros' empire is dictated by a set of norms that depart from Lord's Alliance-style "Lawful Good" quasi-egalitarian goals.

Basically Luskan, where strength and competence determine your right to life and the resources necessary to sustain life.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
35,768
Not by a long shot - Tunnels&Trolls had level scaling in 1990.

Obscure outlier, along with Wizardry 8. I'm talking about when it became prevalent in nearly every mainstream RPG.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,768
It only became prevalent after Oblivion, really.

I've read that Jade Empire had level scaling (I wouldn't know) so that makes kotor2 the first of the wave of level-scaled western console RPGs.
 

Sannom

Augur
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
947
Woman, apparently. They never used gendered pronouns to refer to her before, now that I think about it. Except maybe in podcasts and live streams in which they could make a mistake.

Definitely a bit of a "Samus was a girl" think going on, even if extremely low-key.
 

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