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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The Obsidian hate on the Codex isn't actually anything new. If you look at Chris Avellone's early posts and profile, he thought we despised the company and him too. The prevailing opinion among Codex oldsters seems to have been that they were a compromised, piss-poor replacement for Troika.
 

Duraframe300

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The Obsidian hate on the Codex isn't actually anything new. If you look at Chris Avellone's early posts and profile, he thought we despised the company and him too. The prevailing opinion among Codex oldsters seems to have been that they were a compromised, piss-poor replacement for Troika.

Not that everyone loved Troika either

Lots of *They deserved to go under* posts here as well IIRC.
 
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Lurker King

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I dont prefer to see them become smaller to make uninspired games like POE.

So what do you suggest then? Pack it in and retire?

No, I want them to rethink their priorities. They could make games more sophisticated, with decent combat systems, meaningful reactivity, better writing, and everything else that they are failing to accomplish because they are too afraid to fright causals. The problem is that not only they are eager to please causals (chosen one narratives, easy RTwP, etc.) but to a certain extent they also became causals, because they don’t get the point of most criticisms. They understand that some things like the stronghold and itemization were rushed, but they think that the combat system and character building were good. It’s a matter of design philosophy.
 

MRY

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I look at what styg managed to do, building an engine from scratch, having a deep combat and character progression systems, an actual useful and varied crafting system, along with nice graphics and sound design... Then I look at what a multi-million dollar team manages to push out at obsidian.
There are a few problems, I think.

First, I think that as one approaches AAA quality, labor/cost increases not linearly but geometrically. I'll give a simple example that comes up often with respect to Primordia. People say, "Why not go to higher resolution? How much more work could it be to go from 320x200 to (say) 1280x800 given that much of it is based on hand-drawings anyway?" Then they do some math that's like, "It can't be more than four times as tough because 1280/320 = 4. And since you're using the same design, it's probably at most like twice as much time, if even that." But then you look at how godawful the animation is in the "enhanced" versions of Monkey Island and realize that, no, upscaling the number of pixels doesn't just mean a/b work (which would, in any event, be squared given the two dimensions) -- it also means significantly increasing the number of frames of animation. But even that is often not enough because animation shortcuts that work at low resolution don't work at all at high resolution. So, in fact, you're talking about many times the labor.

Similar things seem to apply to writing. For example, with Age of Decadence, a lot of people complain about the dialogues seeming to be thin, or there not being a lot of NPCs to talk to. But adding those options isn't a matter of 10% more dialogue. It's a vast and demanding increase. Each new branch of dialogue requires branchlets and they have to fit back into the whole. And once the amount of writing becomes greater than what one writer can do, you need extra layers of review for consistency, etc.

Second, people don't realize that for every Styg there are dozens if not hundreds of ~Stygs who tried the same thing and failed. We don't see all of them, or even most of them, because they never get far enough. Styg or VD or Chris Bischoff or even Craig Stern -- these guys are a very rare breed. We are seeing the best of the best. You aren't going to be able to fill a team up with them, and even if you could, there is no reason to expect them all to work well together. In fact, in many cases I would expect the opposite: that brilliant, self-motivated, auteurial polymaths are unlikely to be able to subordinate themselves to a team structure.

So when you start trying to push from Underrail to Fallout, suddenly the whole model that makes Underrail possible (i.e., a lone genius working in isolation) ceases to function. You need a team, and an entirely different kind of people to staff your team, and you need a lot more of them. The more you add, the less likely they are to be of the same model as the creators of AOD, Underrail, etc. I can say from personal experience it is a weird feeling going from being the writer of Primordia to being one of the most insignificant writers on TTON. I probably put as many hours into the writing of my stuff on Torment as I did on Primordia, but at the end of the day, I don't in any way feel like it's "my game" or even partly my game. But even then, the number of writers was tiny compared to the number of designers, artists, etc.

Once a team starts to swell, management needs to worry not just about putting food in their own mouths ("I can go hungry if I have to!") but about providing for the dozens of people who depend on the project's success or else they'll need to move, find new work, uproot families, etc. This, in turn, presumably means that market pressures become much more powerful. One great virtue of game development being a hobby for me is that anything I get from it is a gratuity. But if I had lots of people depending on me, I'd be much more inclined to follow market trends and take fewer risks. When it's a small auteurial project, moreover, the psychic rewards ("This is my game, as my soul cried out for it to be, and now it exists!") are much greater. In other words, I think it is much harder to motivate a large number of "cogs" in a development project with these kinds of secondary considerations ("It's true that I am slashing your salary by 50%, but our game is defiantly original!").

Anyway, I actually haven't followed Tyranny enough to opine on it, and I think generally the Kickstarter run has produced some convention-defying games (obviously I'm biased in favor of TTON), but I don't think it's fair to say, "If one man can do Underrail, ten men can make Fallout, no problem," any more than it is fair to think that Vic, working just a bit harder, could've made Primoridia high res.
 
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ArchAngel

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In general, just want to comment I've gotten a bit tired of "gray" morality in RPGs. It's fantasy and escapism, I think it's totally fine to have clearly defined good and evil and not have to deal with moral ambiguity.

Fuck you! Go play Bethesda games, popamole lover!

It's telling that you left out the rest of my comment... "I'm not saying no games should be like that, they can be quite fun, just saying after a couple of decades of it I would enjoy a good old old fashioned clearly defined good vs evil in my fantasy."

Some people just like to watch themselves burn... :P

Not good enough. The way “good” and “bad” are used in the traditional fashion should be banished from cRPG, because it’s stupid and nonsensical. They can be great for a kid who just want mindless entertainment with swords, but is insulting and boring for any one with above average intelligence.

You're right. Escapism from the real world should be as realistic as possible.
You are right. Fuck realism, all rpgs should be fun like SCL and Fallout 4. I am sure you 100% agree.
:troll:

I 100% agree that you don't like SCL or Fallout 4, I humbly apologize for having a mind and opinions of my own. Now, when you need help getting off of your high horse I'm sure we can find you a ladder.
You are mistaken. I am standing on the ground while the lot of your are in a mud next to me. I don't feel like joining you but I can give you a hand to help you get out. When you are ready, ask for it.
 

Cazzeris

Guest
MRY I don't think it's fair to say that AoD or UnderRail are individual projects. In fact, the teams that made them possible were already close to the number of ten people.

I know that the gameplay design process is pretty much the decisive factor on what makes or breaks a good game, but there are huge amounts of work involved in those games that speak against that inaccurate notion of lone geniuses.
 

Fairfax

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that brilliant, self-motivated, auteurial polymaths are unlikely to be able to subordinate themselves to a team structure.
I always got the impression Obsidian was one of the studios with this "too many chiefs, not enough indians" problem, but I guess we'll never know for sure.
I think generally the Kickstarter run has produced some convention-defying games
We'll see with TTON, but as far as CRPGs are concerned, so far I disagree.

Also, I believe some degree of Obsidian hate has always been fair. Some people (depending on the game, most players) are more forgiving of extremely buggy games, but it's not unreasonable to bash them for it.
 

Kem0sabe

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There are a few problems, I think.

First, I think that as one approaches AAA quality, labor/cost increases not linearly but geometrically. I'll give a simple example that comes up often with respect to Primordia. People say, "Why not go to higher resolution? How much more work could it be to go from 320x200 to (say) 1280x800 given that much of it is based on hand-drawings anyway?" Then they do some math that's like, "It can't be more than four times as tough because 1280/320 = 4. And since you're using the same design, it's probably at most like twice as much time, if even that." But then you look at how godawful the animation is in the "enhanced" versions of Monkey Island and realize that, no, upscaling the number of pixels doesn't just mean a/b work (which would, in any event, be squared given the two dimensions) -- it also means significantly increasing the number of frames of animation. But even that is often not enough because animation shortcuts that work at low resolution don't work at all at high resolution. So, in fact, you're talking about many times the labor.

Similar things seem to apply to writing. For example, with Age of Decadence, a lot of people complain about the dialogues seeming to be thin, or there not being a lot of NPCs to talk to. But adding those options isn't a matter of 10% more dialogue. It's a vast and demanding increase. Each new branch of dialogue requires branchlets and they have to fit back into the whole. And once the amount of writing becomes greater than what one writer can do, you need extra layers of review for consistency, etc.

Second, people don't realize that for every Styg there are dozens if not hundreds of ~Stygs who tried the same thing and failed. We don't see all of them, or even most of them, because they never get far enough. Styg or VD or Chris Bischoff or even Craig Stern -- these guys are a very rare breed. We are seeing the best of the best. You aren't going to be able to fill a team up with them, and even if you could, there is no reason to expect them all to work well together. In fact, in many cases I would expect the opposite: that brilliant, self-motivated, auteurial polymaths are unlikely to be able to subordinate themselves to a team structure.

So when you start trying to push from Underrail to Fallout, suddenly the whole model that makes Underrail possible (i.e., a lone genius working in isolation) ceases to function. You need a team, and an entirely different kind of people to staff your team, and you need a lot more of them. The more you add, the less likely they are to be of the same model as the creators of AOD, Underrail, etc. I can say from personal experience it is a weird feeling going from being the writer of Primordia to being one of the most insignificant writers on TTON. I probably put as many hours into the writing of my stuff on Torment as I did on Primordia, but at the end of the day, I don't in any way feel like it's "my game" or even partly my game. But even then, the number of writers was tiny compared to the number of designers, artists, etc.

Once a team starts to swell, management needs to worry not just about putting food in their own mouths ("I can go hungry if I have to!") but about providing for the dozens of people who depend on the project's success or else they'll need to move, find new work, uproot families, etc. This, in turn, presumably means that market pressures become much more powerful. One great virtue of game development being a hobby for me is that anything I get from it is a gratuity. But if I had lots of people depending on me, I'd be much more inclined to follow market trends and take fewer risks. When it's a small auteurial project, moreover, the psychic rewards ("This is my game, as my soul cried out for it to be, and now it exists!") are much greater. In other words, I think it is much harder to motivate a large number of "cogs" in a development project with these kinds of secondary considerations ("It's true that I am slashing your salary by 50%, but our game is defiantly original!").

Anyway, I actually haven't followed Tyranny enough to opine on it, and I think generally the Kickstarter run has produced some convention-defying games (obviously I'm biased in favor of TTON), but I don't think it's fair to say, "If one man can do Underrail, ten men can make Fallout, no problem," any more than it is fair to think that Vic, working just a bit harder, could've made Primoridia high res.
The work and cost may scale up in bigger studios due to production values, but what underrail demonstrated was an incredibly solid set of rpg mechanics, things that would have been worked on in pre-production and implemented and tuned during the actual production phase.

RPG fundamentals like the combat system, the crafting, the character development system, the two diferent exp systems, these were corner stones that made underrail the modern day classic it is today. Of course the game did suffer a large number of changes dye to community feedback, but those suggestions were expertly implement.

Obsidian on the other hand, has constantly failed to develop solid game systems for their rpgs. Imagine PoE with its production values but founded as well on solid and fun core mechanics.

That lack of insight, of will to take a leap and decide that maybe dumbing shit down is not what players truly want.

I come to the realization that obsidian simply doesn't have the skill present to develop something truly unique that pushes the genre forward.
 

sstacks

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In general, just want to comment I've gotten a bit tired of "gray" morality in RPGs. It's fantasy and escapism, I think it's totally fine to have clearly defined good and evil and not have to deal with moral ambiguity.

Fuck you! Go play Bethesda games, popamole lover!

It's telling that you left out the rest of my comment... "I'm not saying no games should be like that, they can be quite fun, just saying after a couple of decades of it I would enjoy a good old old fashioned clearly defined good vs evil in my fantasy."

Some people just like to watch themselves burn... :P

Not good enough. The way “good” and “bad” are used in the traditional fashion should be banished from cRPG, because it’s stupid and nonsensical. They can be great for a kid who just want mindless entertainment with swords, but is insulting and boring for any one with above average intelligence.

You're right. Escapism from the real world should be as realistic as possible.
You are right. Fuck realism, all rpgs should be fun like SCL and Fallout 4. I am sure you 100% agree.
:troll:

I 100% agree that you don't like SCL or Fallout 4, I humbly apologize for having a mind and opinions of my own. Now, when you need help getting off of your high horse I'm sure we can find you a ladder.
You are mistaken. I am standing on the ground while the lot of your are in a mud next to me. I don't feel like joining you but I can give you a hand to help you get out. When you are ready, ask for it.

Nice rejoinder sir :) But it seems like we're both comfortable where we're at!
 

MRY

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Cazzeris On one level, I was just taking Kem0sabe's comment for what it was (i.e., "styg" not "Stygian Software"). I haven't followed enough of Underrail's development to opine independently here. I had always gotten the sense that one person (Dejan Radisic) did the overwhelming majority of the work in every field, and in fact he's the first person listed as Designer, Coder, Writer, and Artist on the project, so that seems a fair take on it. VD of course had help in art and coding but he did the overwhelming majority of the writing, design, and project management himself. I guess what I would say is that one to three people as the core team (writer/designer, artist, coder) is the limit of growth. You can have other people provide ancillary services without hitting the scale issue I mention, but I don't even think you can do 10 people if they are truly all solid contributors.

Fairfax I think Kickstarter has generated a number of pretty interesting RPGs (esp. if you include stuff like Banner Saga and Undertale), although I haven't played any of them to completion so I'm no good judge of these things.

Kem0sabe I am very bad at judging how good RPG mechanics are, so I can't really have an intelligent conversation about this. My brief glance at PoE did not suggest it was "dumbed down" -- if anything, the mechanics seemed very complex and non-traditional. It's just ultimately it wasn't a high-stakes design. There is, I think, a real question how many people will buy higher-stakes turn-based combat in an RPG. I prefer that kind of combat as a player (I think so, anyway), but I'm not sure that it has a high enough ceiling to support the staffing necessary on a game like PoE. This is what I'm talking about in terms of market forces: as a project grows bigger, it requires a higher ceiling in terms of sales, which in turn may require (or forbid) certain features. It is exactly the need for "solid and fun core mechanics" that may be dooming these projects (from your standpoint) because what constitutes "solid and fun core mechanics" to a wide enough number of players to reach the necessary ceiling may not be to your liking.

I guess by way of analogy, I'd talk about ants. Ants are very strong for their size. (This was a KingComrade meme for a while, right?) "Imagine how awesome an ant the size of a horse would be!" shouts the movie Them. But in fact, you can't scale up an ant (according to some science book I read as a kid). At a certain size, their joints collapse and so forth. There's a reason why animals the size of horses don't look like ants, and aren't able to carry 50 times their weight or whatever it is. I think the same is true of "Imagine how awesome Iron Tower Studio the size of Obsidian would be!" If evolution were such that ants grew to the size of horses, they would resemble horses. If Iron Tower Studio grew to the size of Obsidian, I suppose it would resemble Obsidian. When ants try to stay ants at horse size, they go splat. Here, and in other ways, the laws of nature have robbed us of paradise.
 

Fairfax

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Banner Saga was ok, but didn't break any conventions and was far from what they promised. Art was definitely outstanding, though.
But....Undertale? Et tu, MRY? :negative:
 

Kem0sabe

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Exactly, that's why smaller studios and smaller teams will tend (if the talent is there) to produce higher quality niche games than bigger studios with clear ties to publishers, like obsidian.

Coming from an engineering and public works background, leaner teams will tend to work harder and better than huge multi headed teams, there's little waste, work has to matter and the client must be made to see reason instead of burning cash on unnecessary extra work.

Larian for example seems to be expanding after some modest success, will that be good or bad? History tells us that companies that start biting off more than they can chew, diluting their talent, enduring bigger fixed expenses, will do anything to stay afloat, including producing quick dirty work for a paycheck, instead of cutting down.
 

MRY

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I played it for 15 minutes. Based on the public reaction, it plainly is "interesting," though I was not grabbed.
 

Cazzeris

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MRY I'm afraid we disagree, then. As far as I know, VD heavily relied on the rest of his team for the actual implementation of his ideas (you know, the staggering amounts of scripting, all the 3D models and textures, the impressive lot of animations, the tasteful 2D art, much of the programming and of course the tuning and polishing of such matters like balance and encounter design).

Styg, on the other hand, is primarily responsible of the purer system/gameplay design, coding and core ideas, but only made the place-holderish graphics that only remain as icons and parts of the UI. If the comments on the Underrail subforum combined with some interviews I read are something worth believing, there were other people working on the project handling really important parts of the process like content design, quest design, area design, writing (most of which wasn't actually done by Styg, judging by the Matt Chat videos) and of course the cooler environmental graphics.

Sure, your point about the low-cost smaller groups full of dedicated people holds still, but you were not accurate at all in those statements regarding 'one men armies' and such, at least in my opinion.
 

Roguey

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I look at what styg managed to do, building an engine from scratch, having a deep combat and character progression systems, an actual useful and varied crafting system, along with nice graphics and sound design... Then I look at what a multi-million dollar team manages to push out at obsidian.

What it looks like is a massive lack of ideas, of inspiration, of reliance on bullet point design and too much fussing around with minutiae that has little baring in the end result being a fun or a good rpg.

Obsidian needs to either scale down significantly or grow a pair of balls and actually make a good rpg instead of all these half assed attempts.

http://steamspy.com/app/250520

Obsidian can't survive on garage-dev sales unless they become a garage-dev, in which case it wouldn't even be Obsidian anymore.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
One can't help but notice that these indie "modern classics" like Underrail and AoD have something in common - they're single character RPGs. And the Kickstarter RPGs that everybody whines about? Party-based. You want to talk about scaling up? That's scaling up. And it changes everything about the feel of progression (character development, crafting, etc).
 

Kem0sabe

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http://steamspy.com/app/250520

Obsidian can't survive on garage-dev sales unless they become a garage-dev, in which case it wouldn't even be Obsidian anymore.

No, they would probably be a better RPG developer tho, instead of just a mediocre one.

One can't help but notice that these indie "modern classics" like Underrail and AoD have something in common - they're single character RPGs. And the Kickstarter RPGs that everybody whines about? Party-based. You want to talk about scaling up? That's scaling up. And it changes everything about the feel of progression (character development, crafting, etc).

Shadowrun was done by a very small team, they managed to cram a party into it, lots of text, turned based combat and great visuals, while selling almost a million copies on steam alone. True that the sequels didnt sell as well, but still on the budget they had, and it being their first rpg, i very much consider it a greater success story than a a developer who costs 1 million a month to run churning out a mediocre baldurs gate re-imagining.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Goalposts moved. I thought we were talking about "solid game systems".

Look, I know what you want. What you want is the feeling of "my choices have an IMPACT that I FEEL". This is much, much easier to do with one character. Because he's one guy and everything depends on him. Suddenly that heavy suit of armor you choose to wear doesn't just reduce X from incoming DPS that the other guy in your party can easily heal anyway - it's a life or death choice. Suddenly that weapon you found isn't vendor trash because two other guys in your party already have a weapon that fills the same role - it's the only way for you to defeat a particular encounter. The list goes on. I mentioned this before here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/underrailnincline.106202/#post-4319990
 
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Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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Shadowrun was done by a very small team, they managed to cram a party into it, lots of text, turned based combat and great visuals, while selling almost a million copies on steam alone. True that the sequels didnt sell as well, but still on the budget they had, and it being their first rpg, i very much consider it a greater success story than a a developer who costs 1 million a month to run churning out a mediocre baldurs gate re-imagining.

I couldn’t possibly think in a worst example to bring in this discussion. Shadowrun games suffer from the very same problems of PoE. They satisfy some design bullet points (isometric, turn-based, etc.), but are shallow and super easy. They have no cRPG “meat” in them. I want more games like AoD, Underrail and Serpent in the Staglands. Harebrained Schemes is a shovelware factory designed to suck money from deluded grognards desperate for cRPGs.
 

FeelTheRads

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Goalposts moved.

Achievement Unlocked: You blamed it on party systems!

Previous Achievements: "You blamed it on post-apocalyptic landscapes!" and "You blamed it on straight angles!"
 
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Kem0sabe

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I couldn’t possibly think in a worst example to bring in this discussion. Shadowrun games suffer from the very same problems of PoE. They satisfy some design bullet points (isometric, turn-based, etc.), but are shallow and super easy. They have no cRPG “meat” in them. I want more games like AoD, Underrail and Serpent in the Staglands. Harebrained Schemes is a shovelware factory designed to suck money from deluded grognards desperate for cRPGs.
I made the point about shadowrun because it was party based and done by a small team, on a very small budget for what they managed to actually release.
 

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