Tyranny 1.2, no DLC: The Roguey Report

[Azarkon]

From what I can remember, this game wasn't bad, but it also wasn't particularly memorable. What struck me was the poor use of the dialogue engine - it suffered from many of the same presentation problems Tides of Numenera did. I'm not surprised a person who liked Tides of Numenera would also like this game but for me, it was difficult to get through either. Simply put, the setting has excellent ideas, but it's ruined by the constant wall of text lore dumps, which are the game's preferred method of communicating its setting and story. I suppose I am a devoted follower of the show, don't tell school of design, and this game does a lot of telling.

Other than that, the combat and equipment systems were, at best, mediocre and I think you're probably confusing it with the rest of the game considering you only spent 6% of your time in combat situations.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I played it at launch. I don't know how it's changed, but it was terrible at the time. The game had 2 entire acts cut, and it showed.

Let's see: lousy combat, cut/compressed ending, mediocre itemization, but great writing... sounds a lot like KoTOR 2 but with fewer side quests. If only Tyranny had a restored content mod, everyone would acknowledge it as a cult classic.

From what I can remember, this game wasn't bad, but it also wasn't particularly memorable. What struck me was the poor use of the dialogue engine - it suffered from many of the same presentation problems Tides of Numenera did. I'm not surprised a person who liked Tides of Numenera would also like this game but for me, it was difficult to get through either. Simply put, the setting has excellent ideas, but it's ruined by the constant wall of text lore dumps, which are the game's preferred method of communicating its setting and story. I suppose I am a devoted follower of the show, don't tell school of design, and this game does a lot of telling.

The best thing about the game is the text; it's definitely intended for an audience that likes lots of reading in their RPGs. That said, Tyranny was pretty good about making a lot of the lore optional, but easily accessible, by implementing the keyword-hovering thing. And you could avoid a lot of the lore by not asking NPCs every single question.

 

[Fairfax]

Joined: Jun 15, 2017

Every single time. What the hell happened last year?

 

[Sentinel]

NeoGAF got axed.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

The game has an extremely rushed ending, very few sidequests, no companion quests, zero exploration, poor itemization, level scaling, skill-check scaling, skyrim-like progression but worse, dumbed down mechanics, lack of enemy types, copy-pasted encounters, etc. I know some are subjective and it's fair to have a different impression when playing, but some of these flaws are self-evident, so I'm surprised you didn't mention them at all. My impression is that you're willing to forgive/ignore almost anything as long as you enjoy the writing and there isn't too much combat, which I find rather ironic considering Sawyer's approach to game design.

I'm only being maybe 75% facetious. But please, enlighten me! KoTOR 2 was great in spite of its awful combat, rushed ending, semi randomized item drops, level scaling, skill-check scaling, and uninspired encounter design. Exploration is far from great. So what's the difference? Lots more side quests, companion quests and (admittedly) much better progression? Chris Avellone? Star Wars? The absence of cooldowns?

To me most of this seems like a difference in degree rather than kind.

Tyranny has the standard Obsidian flaws and standard Obsidian virtues.

 

[Fairfax]

But please, enlighten me!

I'm afraid I can't perform miracles.

I'll tell you one thing, though. You're clearly not joking, so at least stand by your words.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

But please, enlighten me!

I'm afraid I can't perform miracles.

I'll tell you one thing, though. You're clearly not joking, so at least stand by your words.

I’m 100% serious that most of the criticisms you throw at Tyranny could credibly be leveled at the game you draw your avatar from. Naturally, this strikes me as deeply confused. Clearly, you’re willing to forgive many of these issues under other circumstances.

Surely, there is a middle ground between “this game is terrible” and “Kreia’s face is my face.” I would never argue that Tyranny is as good as KoTOR 2, but their strengths and weaknesses lie along similar lines (much more similar without the restored content mod).

When I read people say Tyranny is bad because it lacks side quests, companion quests and a more fleshed out ending, it sounds a lot like, “Tyranny would be better if there was more of it,” which is a high quality problem to have. Similarly, it was so terrible you played it all the way through? Smells like extreme hyperbole.

Tyranny tries to emulate BioWare design you say? KoTOR 2 is literally BioWare design + better writing and moral ambiguity.

It’s like someone shouting, “fuck communism,” while wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt.

 

[Roguey]

If they did that, SJW hordes would have descended upon both them and Obsidian well before the actual game was even released :D

Well, you also have the option of joining antifa and resisting Kyros. The very premise was never going to appeal to those kinds of people, might as well risk it.

you gon hafta splain wut this haz 2do wit anime nibba

Tyranny resembles anime in its character designs and combat animations. In the art book they said their visual inspirations were Hellboy, Batman: The Animated Series, and Tartakovsky's Clone Wars, so close enough. If skyway were around, he'd definitely call it anime (as he did with Alpha Protocol).

Yeah, that didn't do much to improve it.

What else is there to do for a character loyal to Kyros? You conquered all the regions, and ended the archon feud, the war is over.

The game tries to emulate modern BioWarian design, not Obsidian's previous work.

Knights of the Old Republic 2, Neverwinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer, and Alpha Protocol also tried to emulate modern Bioware design. Up until New Vegas, they were Bioware Jr.

And as far as expectations go, the game fails at its biggest selling point, which was reactivity.

I'm going to have to replay the make a proper call here, but my conquest and background decisions were referenced a lot.

The maps are small and linear, with very little loot to find, and the game lacks different areas for you to actually be a "fantasy Judge Dredd", which goes back to the lack of side content and the linearity.

They do give you multiple cases to judge, e.g. there were several that showed up on my return to the Disfavored camp, and one in the Stone Sea village.

I played it the same way you did. At 15.5 seconds per enemy killed, how's that not quick and easy?

I didn't find it easy, I was anxious most of the time.

And your stats show your character didn't get knocked out a single time in the whole game, while your most used companion was knocked out 3 times.

That's because I reloaded whenever anyone was knocked out, unless the battle had already been going on for a while and I was winning, with no exception for the main character. Additionally, total party kills wouldn't show up on the stats, though there were only a few of those.

And yes, it also describes FNV's combat, but that's precisely one of the its weakest aspects.

In his own words:

My goal was to increment the difficulty above Fallout 3 without taking such a large step that F3 fans would be unable or unwilling to adapt.

Tyranny's aimed at the typical Obsidian designer/playtester who finds having to keep track of a bunch of levels of per-rest resources for potentially multiple classes to be too much of a mental demand, but who doesn't want to sleepwalk through it (unless they're playing on story mode of course).

 

[yes plz]

Well, you also have the option of joining antifa and resisting Kyros. The very premise was never going to appeal to those kinds of people, might as well risk it.

You can actually make the rebel path the most pro-Kyros one now. The idea being that Ashe and Nerat failed, so you're going to unite and subjugate the tiers yourself for Kyros. Being that they only bothered to change some of the dialogue for the route, though, you still have to paradoxically disobey orders and constantly be nice and let the rebels live at the start of the game to begin the route.

 

[Israfael]

Just read several papers on the inscriptions of Asshurbanipal, Esarhaddon and other assorted Assyrian fellows, I wonder if this game would be perceived in a better way if it was, say, more historical as in 'Assyria vs city-states of Hanaan (or Phoenicia)' (you don't even have to invent cruelty and 'evilness' - all proper Assyrian rulers exceeded what was shown in Tyranny by orders of magnitude, and all the other stuff like 'iron vs bronze', degenerate south vs iron willed north, is already present in the setting). Did the Tyranny team model it after Assyria, Anthony Davis , if it's not a secret?

 

[Roguey]

I wonder if this game would be perceived in a better way if it was, say, more historical as in 'Assyria vs city-states of Hanaan (or Phoenicia)' (you don't even have to invent cruelty and 'evilness' - all proper Assyrian rulers exceeded what was shown in Tyranny by orders of magnitude, and all the other stuff like 'iron vs bronze', degenerate south vs iron willed north, is already present in the setting).

As Josh Sawyer can tell you, nothing makes someone's eyes glaze over faster than saying your game is historical.

 

[ArchAngel]

I couldn't have said it better myself and god knows I've tried.

You just finished your first playthrough? At least for me, Tyranny was one of the few games that I felt compelled to replay immediately.

Same for me. And I did do a 2nd playthrough immediately to try out a different character. I never finished that one due to new league of Path of Exile starting (in last year I usually only play other RPGs between Path of Exile leagues).

As for combat itself, I must say that biggest fun in every combat was about leveling as many different skills a possible. That was the true challenge :D

 

[SausageInYourFace]

For those curious, here's the loyal to Kyros ending text, where compassionate fascism wins.Given how simple and brief it is, and how the last sentence still leaves an opening to railroad you into the standard ending for a sequel, I imagine it was only absent from the release version because they just never considered it. Better late than never anyway.

Wait what, they added a loyal to Kyros ending?

 

[Brancaleone]

I wonder if this game would be perceived in a better way if it was, say, more historical as in 'Assyria vs city-states of Hanaan (or Phoenicia)' (you don't even have to invent cruelty and 'evilness' - all proper Assyrian rulers exceeded what was shown in Tyranny by orders of magnitude, and all the other stuff like 'iron vs bronze', degenerate south vs iron willed north, is already present in the setting).

As Josh Sawyer can tell you, nothing makes someone's eyes glaze over faster than saying your game is historical.

As Kingdom Come: Deliverance's sales clearly demonstrate.

Of course, if the historical game were Sawyer-made, the glaze over would be all but guaranteed.

 

[Roguey]

As Kingdom Come: Deliverance's sales clearly demonstrate.

Of course, if the historical game were Sawyer-made, the glaze over would be all but guaranteed.

KCD was definitely a risk, but it's also an open world action game which mitigates the risk. Yes, JES's turn-based historical RPG is guaranteed to sell fewer copies than Tyranny, so they're going to have to watch that budget.

 

[Iznaliu]

As Kingdom Come: Deliverance's sales clearly demonstrate.

It was a surprise hit, and I get the distinct impression that people like it despite its historicity, rather than due to it; at the very least, accuracy is irrelevant to them.

 

[Israfael]

I was not saying it should be historically accurate (tm) (C), but simply that the actual history of real tyranny (as in how the Assyrian rulers made their conquested territories fear and obey them in an age where there was no mass media, literacy and other means of brainwashing that are present today). Pretty sure that most of the Obsidian staff, like the SJWs are wont to say, are rich white people or trannies of the assorted kind who can't really know why and how those tyrants did what they did unless they are historians who specialize in that part of the subject.

For some reason people think that the autocrators of the old were cruel and murderous just because they were verrrry EVUL, without giving a moments' thought how the power worked and the information spread in the time where there was basically no civilization and so on. Current anti-Trump propaganda does not help as well. Of course, some Assyrian rulers cultivated the idea that they were cruel beyond any reason, but that could have been a political instrument as well. We simply don't know, and it'd be interesting to explore in a dynamic environment.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I was not saying it should be historically accurate (tm) (C), but simply that the actual history of real tyranny (as in how the Assyrian rulers made their conquested territories fear and obey them in an age where there was no mass media, literacy and other means of brainwashing that are present today). Pretty sure that most of the Obsidian staff, like the SJWs are wont to say, are rich white people or trannies of the assorted kind who can't really know why and how those tyrants did what they did unless they are historians who specialize in that part of the subject.

For some reason people think that the autocrators of the old were cruel and murderous just because they were verrrry EVUL, without giving a moments' thought how the power worked and the information spread in the time where there was basically no civilization and so on. Current anti-Trump propaganda does not help as well. Of course, some Assyrian rulers cultivated the idea that they were cruel beyond any reason, but that could have been a political instrument as well. We simply don't know, and it'd be interesting to explore in a dynamic environment.

Did you play Tyranny? Cruelty very much has a purpose in its world. Only Nerat is really cartoonishly evil. This game is not some paean to bleeding heart liberalism. You get tons of examples about how Kyros’ rule has been beneficial for his/her subjects, because order is preferable to anarchy.

And you don’t even need to go as far back as the Assyrians to find rational governments using atrocity as the basis of their foreign and domestic policy. The Romans were crucifying their enemies en masse (at least the ones who were too dangerous to enslave) when they were still a Republic. Pre-modern siege warfare is one atrocity after another; any city that refuses to surrender needs to be sacked per encourager les autres.

The idea that this game is some kind of anti-Trump statement rings hollow, especially since the whole thing was written before the election and I doubt many Obsidianites believed he’d win.

Obsidian didn’t use a real world example because they very much wanted to make a fantasy game about a fantasy tyrant. Still, the Roman Empire under Domitian or anyone after Marcus Aurelius would be a better setting for a historically inspired take on tyranny—we have better records from late antiquity than we do from far antiquity, and the Romans are much easier for modern people to get their heads around.

 

[ilitarist]

Surprised you liked the combat.

I adore Pillars of Eternity combat. Replaying it now on Path of the Damned and enjoy the way I have to get out of my way to win many fights and think about every move. With Tyranny I had a completely different experience. In the beginning it's difficult indeed. First act was very demanding. However there you have very few tools to affect the combat. Not many spells, not many items. So it all depends whether you made the right character and you can't reroll. However, after the first act the difficulty goes downhill fast. By act 3 I didn't have to pause the game anymore, nothing could stand in my way. I almost ignored midgame mechanics like crafting and artifacts. I hoped they'll make a big expansion and do what 3.0 did to PoE. But they didn't and I doubt they've fixed this since release.

 

[Lhynn]

Told you the writing was better than PoE, or even wasteland.

Other than that, fuck off.

 

[Israfael]

Did you play Tyranny? Cruelty very much has a purpose in its world. Only Nerat is really cartoonishly evil. This game is not some paean to bleeding heart liberalism. You get tons of examples about how Kyros’ rule has been beneficial for his/her subjects, because order is preferable to anarchy.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's clearly not enough - cruelty in the game builds on the modern notion of the supremacy of law, not the irresistible, indifferent military force that enforces it. And you are wrong about Nerat, if you look at him through the lens of political theory and game theory (not vidya games, but deterrence and so on) - he's actually not cartoonishly evil, he's an instrument of chaos that prevents the tyrant's subjects from gaming on rationality of his actions and unwillingness to exert violence when it's *rationally* not needed.

For example, Ivan the Terrible had a guy named Malyuta Skuratov and his oprichniki fellows who served the same role as the scarlet chorus - they roamed specific parts of the Moscow principality (that recently rebelled or were disloyal to the Tsar), terrorized the locals, executed the nobles en masse and did other stuff that the regular streltsy (army) did not do. They also had very peculiar garments (predominantly black, severed dog's head and a broom attached to their saddles) that instantly set them out and told the public that they won't fuck around. Just a thought that these fellows might visit your town (as they did in Novgorod in 1570) made the rebellious nobles much more agreeable and diplomatic in their relations with the (make-pretend insane) Tsar.

The idea that this game is some kind of anti-Trump statement rings hollow, especially since the whole thing was written before the election and I doubt many Obsidianites believed he’d win.

I never said that, I just noted that their perceptions of what tyranny is made of might be skewed since they probably are not experts in history and their countries were never ruled by a true despot (whose history would be taught in schools in any capacity).

 

[HeatEXTEND]

So what's the difference?
Chris Avellone Star Wars

Also Tranny being utter shit obviously.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Did you play Tyranny? Cruelty very much has a purpose in its world. Only Nerat is really cartoonishly evil. This game is not some paean to bleeding heart liberalism. You get tons of examples about how Kyros’ rule has been beneficial for his/her subjects, because order is preferable to anarchy.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's clearly not enough - cruelty in the game builds on the modern notion of the supremacy of law, not the irresistible, indifferent military force that enforces it. And you are wrong about Nerat, if you look at him through the lens of political theory and game theory (not vidya games, but deterrence and so on) - he's actually not cartoonishly evil, he's an instrument of chaos that prevents the tyrant's subjects from gaming on rationality of his actions and unwillingness to exert violence when it's *rationally* not needed.

For example, Ivan the Terrible had a guy named Malyuta Skuratov and his oprichniki fellows who served the same role as the scarlet chorus - they roamed specific parts of the Moscow principality (that recently rebelled or were disloyal to the Tsar), terrorized the locals, executed the nobles en masse and did other stuff that the regular streltsy (army) did not do. They also had very peculiar garments (predominantly black, severed dog's head and a broom attached to their saddles) that instantly set them out and told the public that they won't fuck around. Just a thought that these fellows might visit your town (as they did in Novgorod in 1570) made the rebellious nobles much more agreeable and diplomatic in their relations with the (make-pretend insane) Tsar.

The idea that this game is some kind of anti-Trump statement rings hollow, especially since the whole thing was written before the election and I doubt many Obsidianites believed he’d win.

I never said that, I just noted that their perceptions of what tyranny is made of might be skewed since they probably are not experts in history and their countries were never ruled by a true despot (whose history would be taught in schools in any capacity).

Of course there’s method in Nerat’s madness and as far as I’m concerned the Scarlet Chorus are the good guys. But Nerat’s still cartoonishly evil at times—eating people for fun, not just for political advantage.

I disagree on the rule of law/irresistible military force dynamic; all of the cruelty in the Tiers is about the latter. They’re subjugating a foreign nation for heaven’s sake, they’d rather not have to do it all over again, hence the tension between the Disfavored wanting to kill them all and the Chorus wanting to enslave them all with a modest amount of showy executions.

Was Ivan the terrible really only pretending? He certainly got some benefit from the madman theory of government, but that doesn’t preclude him actually being pretty loony-tunes. I mean, when historians exumed his corpse they found he had Syphilis, which drives you nuts, and also was full of mercury from his quack doctors. So he was absolutely mad as a hatter late in life. The man killed his own son after beating his daughter-in-law hard enough ton cause a miscarriage.

But I wouldn’t necessarily call Ivan’s not-so-secret police that tyrannical. Nearly the whole of Europe was trending toward absolutism at the time, reigning in their nobles by any means necessary.

I prefer Vlad Tepes as the thinking man’s tyrant. For every crime, one punishment—you get yourself impaled. The Turks are invading again? Let’s impale a village of our own people so that they’ll see it and know we mean business.

Whether Obsidian’s writing team on Tyranny knows any history would be easy enough to check. Who were the writers, what did the study in school, and what did they read in preparation for making this game?

 

[Infinitron]

Whether Obsidian’s writing team on Tyranny knows any history would be easy enough to check. Who were the writers, what did the study in school, and what did they read in preparation for making this game?

You may find these interviews informative: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10370
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-expansion-thread.111973/page-71#post-4920771

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Whether Obsidian’s writing team on Tyranny knows any history would be easy enough to check. Who were the writers, what did the study in school, and what did they read in preparation for making this game?

You may find these interviews informative: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10370
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-expansion-thread.111973/page-71#post-4920771

Qin Shi Huang—perfect example! Thank you, brobot.

Everyone, change your avatars to Deadfire portraits!!! Witness the manifest benefits.