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RTS Total War Games: Is 'Medieval 2' AI Also Retarded?

Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
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Codex 2012
Looks like there is a really great LOTR mod for Medieval 2 I would like to try out but am hesitating buying another Creative Assembly game...

I owned both Rome (original) and Empire and played a total of about 50 hours of Rome and 15 hours of Empire. I have even tried what was supposed to be the best total revamp (Darth Vader something) of Empire and the AI was still nonexistent. I don't consider myself any kind of tactical expert, I am inept at anything RT but still regularly defeat armies of 1,000s with the same two or three regiments. I tried the game again about a year ago.

So is the AI as retarded in Medieval 2 as Empire (which came out later, diff engine)? Or can it be fixed by mods?

AI in a strategy game is kinda important. I don't mind stupid campaign AI so much, can deal with that by choosing weaker start or deliberate self-sabotage but if combat/tactical AI doesn't work it is just like masturbating.
 
Dumbfuck
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Codex 2012
But how effective is it? I have tried 'AI upgrades' for Empire which were still shit. Is Empire just a worse engine (not fixable) or something? Would have thought the newer game was more salvageable
 

Carrion

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I haven't played Empire, but Medieval 2's AI was much worse than in Rome. It rarely does anything clever, it just relies on sheer numbers and heavy cavalry to crush you. DarthMod includes a number of AI fixes while still trying to stay fairly faithful to the vanilla version, so that might be worth checking out.
 

KoolNoodles

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Apr 28, 2012
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Mods for Medieval 2: Kingdoms(You MUST have Kingdoms, no point not to):

Broken Crescent as mentioned, greater empahsis and expansion of mid-east/eastern countries than other mods.
Third Age Total War as mentioned, very well done, massive, best LotR strategy game ever made(honestly).
Stainless Steel, Eurocentric but includes a ton of new stuff, almost universally liked, done by a lot of the same dudes who did Third Age.
Deus Lo Vult, my personal favorite, can be very hard, slightly more buggy than SS or BC I think, has a greater emphasis on events and the strategic layer than either.

Those are my three most played, and I like them all for different reasons/flavors. There are also some good mods that dive into Rome era stuff, Fantasy stuff, etc. Really wonderful and deep modding community. TW Center is your friend. Still Keep MTW2 on my HD for the mods alone.

Also would like to point out that with all those mods, and basically any of the "big" mods, the AI has been massively overhauled both in the strategic and tactical layer. Of course it shouldn't be as good as a good human player, but equal strength battles tend to be much more costly as opposed to complete routs.

Basically, the three "big" mods that focus on the base game and enhancing it(Broken Crescent, Stainless Steel, Deus Lo Vult), are all worth checking out. They also have a plethora of sub mods you can add to them for different flavors/feels, that you may want to look at after playing them a bit. It takes a little bit of effort to research and install all these mods, but the effort pays off.
 

Monocause

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Remember to set the battle difficulty to very hard in MTW2. Contrary to what they did in RTW higher battle difficulty doesn't translate to stupid bonuses for enemy troops morale and stats, it affects how quickly can the troops get tired and the AI is designed to work with the hardest difficulty (that's why it's reluctant to move its troops too much on the field).

Campaign difficulty is best left on medium. Hard and Very Hard lead to incredibly unstable alliances and everyone backstabbing you the moment you leave a settlement poorly defended. Once I played England on VH and come turn 20 I had a naval assault by Sicily which decided to take its time swimming all the way from the mediterranean to assault London while they still had numerous rebels and weaker countries around the italian peninsula.

What I wrote above doesn't apply to mods which change the campaign AI or battle AI behaviour, just the vanilla one.
 
Dumbfuck
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Feb 2, 2012
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Codex 2012
OK well...

First game playing as Rohan, I have a scout out and all of sudden he is attacked by an Isengard army of 500 led by Saruman himself. I flee he pursues and am forced to fight, decimate his archers - same turn he continues and assaults my village (think he has a special power that gives him extra moves) and manage to cut him down to about 50 (his personal guard and 5 archers) tho he wins.

I am now wondering what Saruman's plan is exactly invading Rohan with an army of 500 and if he's got another army of reinforcements. Next turn I send forces from every surrounding village and it takes another two turns until I can attack... he is still sitting there and has exactly 50 soldiers, in other words he had no reinforcements no plan and hasn't done a thing. I kill him (takes an insane number of cuts) and my main opponent is dead on turn 30. Message pops up confirming that 'the Lord of Isengard' really is dead (killed by a Rohirrim militia spearman) and somebody has replaced him.

The combat AI has been doing OK with what they actually bring to the field but it seems evil are both underpowered and as stupid as ever.

Gondor is also steadily taking over Ithilien and have annexed the Forest/Wild Men. I had a look at Orthanc with my spy and I see it is garrisoned by just 3 regiments (Isengard new leader has sent a 1 regiment army out I guess to avenge Saruman)
 

Delterius

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If you have kingdoms go for the Warhammer mod.
name?

is it this one?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/call-of-warhammer-total-war
Yes. The AI is *way* better than vanilla. I wonder when Creative assembly will actually justify their name and learn from the modders.
They are promoting some modder meetings and I hear that there's some dialogue between modders and the devs. So maybe there's that.
 

Shannow

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Remember to set the battle difficulty to very hard in MTW2. Contrary to what they did in RTW higher battle difficulty doesn't translate to stupid bonuses for enemy troops morale and stats, it affects how quickly can the troops get tired and the AI is designed to work with the hardest difficulty (that's why it's reluctant to move its troops too much on the field).
Are you talking about some mod? Because I tried it with vanilla, SS and probably a few others... the AI always gets stupid stat bonusses. Never saw the attaction of having your elite troops only being as stong as the AI's average troops.
 

Dead Guy

Cipher
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
281
OK well...

First game playing as Rohan, I have a scout out and all of sudden he is attacked by an Isengard army of 500 led by Saruman himself. I flee he pursues and am forced to fight, decimate his archers - same turn he continues and assaults my village (think he has a special power that gives him extra moves) and manage to cut him down to about 50 (his personal guard and 5 archers) tho he wins.

I am now wondering what Saruman's plan is exactly invading Rohan with an army of 500 and if he's got another army of reinforcements. Next turn I send forces from every surrounding village and it takes another two turns until I can attack... he is still sitting there and has exactly 50 soldiers, in other words he had no reinforcements no plan and hasn't done a thing. I kill him (takes an insane number of cuts) and my main opponent is dead on turn 30. Message pops up confirming that 'the Lord of Isengard' really is dead (killed by a Rohirrim militia spearman) and somebody has replaced him.

The combat AI has been doing OK with what they actually bring to the field but it seems evil are both underpowered and as stupid as ever.

Gondor is also steadily taking over Ithilien and have annexed the Forest/Wild Men. I had a look at Orthanc with my spy and I see it is garrisoned by just 3 regiments (Isengard new leader has sent a 1 regiment army out I guess to avenge Saruman)

The strategic AI and the battle AI have never been good friends. This is still true in TATW, but iirc the AI gets a bit of help through scripts and what not. It's still retarded with how it handles commanders in general, including faction leaders etc. Sending them out without an army and being an indecisive idiot.

The biggest help is arguably the garrison script, if you lay siege to Isengard you should get to see that in action. Briefly, large settlements, like Minas Tirith, Moria etc, spawn about a half-stack or more defenders when you lay siege to them. This doesn't happen to settlements owned by the player.

Gondor has always had trouble dealing with Mordor and Harad in combination in my campaigns, they might have an easier time when the player is Rohan, since you'll draw some attention, maybe even invasions when those start to pop up.
 
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
7,056
Codex 2012
OK well...

First game playing as Rohan, I have a scout out and all of sudden he is attacked by an Isengard army of 500 led by Saruman himself. I flee he pursues and am forced to fight, decimate his archers - same turn he continues and assaults my village (think he has a special power that gives him extra moves) and manage to cut him down to about 50 (his personal guard and 5 archers) tho he wins.

I am now wondering what Saruman's plan is exactly invading Rohan with an army of 500 and if he's got another army of reinforcements. Next turn I send forces from every surrounding village and it takes another two turns until I can attack... he is still sitting there and has exactly 50 soldiers, in other words he had no reinforcements no plan and hasn't done a thing. I kill him (takes an insane number of cuts) and my main opponent is dead on turn 30. Message pops up confirming that 'the Lord of Isengard' really is dead (killed by a Rohirrim militia spearman) and somebody has replaced him.

The combat AI has been doing OK with what they actually bring to the field but it seems evil are both underpowered and as stupid as ever.

Gondor is also steadily taking over Ithilien and have annexed the Forest/Wild Men. I had a look at Orthanc with my spy and I see it is garrisoned by just 3 regiments (Isengard new leader has sent a 1 regiment army out I guess to avenge Saruman)

The strategic AI and the battle AI have never been good friends. This is still true in TATW, but iirc the AI gets a bit of help through scripts and what not. It's still retarded with how it handles commanders in general, including faction leaders etc. Sending them out without an army and being an indecisive idiot.

The biggest help is arguably the garrison script, if you lay siege to Isengard you should get to see that in action. Briefly, large settlements, like Minas Tirith, Moria etc, spawn about a half-stack or more defenders when you lay siege to them. This doesn't happen to settlements owned by the player.

Gondor has always had trouble dealing with Mordor and Harad in combination in my campaigns, they might have an easier time when the player is Rohan, since you'll draw some attention, maybe even invasions when those start to pop up.
How exactly does the garrison script work and does it do anything special to Isengard? Do they magically spawn troops they don't need to pay for and can use for invasions or are they fixed/garrison only? I had it on but only noticed it when some Elf settlement revolted and decided to declare their loyalty to me, I magically received about 300 foot soldiers (which is quite a lot), I abandoned it and brought the troops home - felt like a cheat.

Also what is the best mod pack? I was trying Baron Samedi for 3.1 which might be the issue (not as up to date). Also noticed 'Realism' which is supposed to increase the power of evil side which is good but is missing/incompatible with other sub mods
 

Dead Guy

Cipher
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Sep 12, 2012
Messages
281
Don't think those mod packs were available when i tried it, or I ignored them.

The troops you get when a settlement revolts and changes to your side are normal, I think it's the same in vanilla. I guess it's so that the ejected defenders can't just march right back in there again?

The garrison script magically spawns troops for the AI because it's so bad at defending key settlements. It triggers when some major cities are besieged. The troops stay if you lift the siege. This can, iirc, give AI factions free troops when other AI factions dick around and siege a settlement but then just walk away. I think they're payed for as normal. The only settlement that it really does anything particularly special for is Moria, you should be able to guess exactly what from lore.

I can't remember for sure but I think it happened to me that the script triggered again after laying siege for a few turns, so that fresh troops magicked in after about 4 or so turns of siege. Not sure if WAI.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Tons of good mods for MTW2, the lack of mod support was one of the reasons I didn't bothered with Empire, aside from mentioned:

Thera the legation of Great Torment.

and IB2 (Invasio Barbarorum 2) are good.

Basically speaking if you own Rome and MTW2 and Neverwinter Nights You won't need any RPG or Strategy game, the mod scene will give you enough to play for years.
 

oscar

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Call of Warhammer has some pretty decent AI. Also some really, really, really impressive custom maps (sieges in particular are beautiful). Ripping of Mark of Chaos textures also means orcs and what-not look pretty good.

The best thing about this mod is that the campaigns are actually pretty tough (primarily due to scripted events) and give you a solid run for your money. Barely holding sprawling Kiev from three full strength, high tier Chaos stacks was awesome. Likewise my guerrilla warfare-esque Vampire Counts game which saw a lot of strategic back and forth as I raided from the mountains into the lightly-defended west of the Empire, who eventually got their shit together and pushed me back with a huge army (instead of the puny half-stack 'armies' you get in vanilla TW this mod frequently features plenty of full stacks) that I only just managed to hold back by careful exploitation of mountainous terrain.

:salute: to those awesome Russian modders
 

aris

Arcane
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Apr 27, 2012
Messages
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The total war game with the best AI is without a shred of doubt Shogun 2 (which isn't to say that that one has good AI either).
 

Malakal

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Call of Warhammer has some pretty decent AI. Also some really, really, really impressive custom maps (sieges in particular are beautiful). Ripping of Mark of Chaos textures also means orcs and what-not look pretty good.

The best thing about this mod is that the campaigns are actually pretty tough (primarily due to scripted events) and give you a solid run for your money. Barely holding sprawling Kiev from three full strength, high tier Chaos stacks was awesome. Likewise my guerrilla warfare-esque Vampire Counts game which saw a lot of strategic back and forth as I raided from the mountains into the lightly-defended west of the Empire, who eventually got their shit together and pushed me back with a huge army (instead of the puny half-stack 'armies' you get in vanilla TW this mod frequently features plenty of full stacks) that I only just managed to hold back by careful exploitation of mountainous terrain.

:salute: to those awesome Russian modders

True, but after some turns chaos stacks tend to be.... excessive. And by that I mean 60 full stacks marching on you.

CoH is awesome not only because of lots and lots of scripted activity but mostly because of awesome units. Bright wizards single handely wipe out armies (yours too, can never have enough friendly fire), minotaurs are nearly unstoppable and there are other interesting and fun units. AI is competent enough granted it has incredible advantage.
 

oscar

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It really does feel like a 'realistic' size invasion with all those full stacks marching around, rather than having the Battle of Waterloo fought between 1500 soldiers.
 

Monocause

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Remember to set the battle difficulty to very hard in MTW2. Contrary to what they did in RTW higher battle difficulty doesn't translate to stupid bonuses for enemy troops morale and stats, it affects how quickly can the troops get tired and the AI is designed to work with the hardest difficulty (that's why it's reluctant to move its troops too much on the field).
Are you talking about some mod? Because I tried it with vanilla, SS and probably a few others... the AI always gets stupid stat bonusses. Never saw the attaction of having your elite troops only being as stong as the AI's average troops.


They indeed don't. The only game in the "new" TW series where they did get stupid stat bonuses was RTW. I'm pretty sure there's no such bonuses in M2TW (IIRC the devs even made it as one of their selling points) and in M2TW battle diff changes how much fatigue you accrue. I think ETW and NTW also doesn't include stat bonuses instead focusing on how morale works, but in the case of all three games choosing very hard battles is making the battles more "fair" not by imposing handicaps on your guys but on *removing handicaps* that are imposed on the AI at lower difficulties.

BTW, since this is in transition to becoming a general TW-themed thread, I must say that ETW really improved a lot over the years. I played it shortly after release and was disgusted with the state of events and now, with the latest patch, the game is fun! Playing a Maratha campaign now figuring it'd be a decent choice for a start and had a blast conquering India. Still 8 provinces short of victory, so I guess my next target will be Persia and then some sort of a blitzkrieg with the Ottomans designed to snatch the missing 4 provinces before they wise up.

I'm actually tempted to give NTW a try after this. I read they improved a lot of things, like provincial development; I hope they also improved CPU move times.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I like the slower battle speed of empire compared to napoleon, but I think sometimes I'm the only one.
 

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