Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[aeroaeko]

This game looks really interesting but everyone says its shit. I really want to play it but am very conflicted and not sure.

 

[Zombra]

This game looks really interesting but everyone says its shit. I really want to play it but am very conflicted and not sure.

Why not get it on Steam and try it for 2 hours or less? If you don't like it you can refund. If you "really want to play it" you should at least try it so you don't always wonder.

 

[Roguey]

IIRC you meet them all in your head, suggesting that in fact, they're all you. Now, mind you, different incarnations of you, but still you.

In Numanuma, it's all someone else completely, all the time. It's all just stories disconnected from you, with no real mystery, just.. here, have a flash of someone else doing something at some point. It's much like seeing the ghosts in PoE.

The Changing God is also you because the person that he was exists only as a spectre in your head.

 

[Modron]

This game looks really interesting but everyone says its shit. I really want to play it but am very conflicted and not sure.

Why not get it on Steam and try it for 2 hours or less? If you don't like it you can refund. If you "really want to play it" you should at least try it so you don't always wonder.

The opening city might give you an impression the game isn't that bad and lull you into playing more than the 2 hour window only to have the game turn to shit once you leave it.

 

[Zombra]

This game looks really interesting but everyone says its shit. I really want to play it but am very conflicted and not sure.

Why not get it on Steam and try it for 2 hours or less? If you don't like it you can refund. If you "really want to play it" you should at least try it so you don't always wonder.

The opening city might give you an impression the game isn't that bad and lull you into playing more than the 2 hour window only to have the game turn to shit once you leave it.

I guess it's possible. For me the beginning isn't super amazing enough to qualify as a "Trojan horse" for the rest. Never seen anyone suggest that before.

 

[Luckmann]

IIRC you meet them all in your head, suggesting that in fact, they're all you. Now, mind you, different incarnations of you, but still you.

In Numanuma, it's all someone else completely, all the time. It's all just stories disconnected from you, with no real mystery, just.. here, have a flash of someone else doing something at some point. It's much like seeing the ghosts in PoE.

The Changing God is also you because the person that he was exists only as a spectre in your head.

Yes, but not as you or an aspect of you.

It feels like a metaphor for tumblresque headmates.

This game looks really interesting but everyone says its shit. I really want to play it but am very conflicted and not sure.

Play it. Just don't pay for it, because you'll want to return it.

 

[Roguey]

Yes, but not as you or an aspect of you.

It feels like a metaphor for tumblresque headmates.

He was nu-Transcendent One which was TNO's mortality given sentience.

 

[Luckmann]

Yes, but not as you or an aspect of you.

It feels like a metaphor for tumblresque headmates.

He was nu-Transcendent One which was TNO's mortality given sentience.

Yes, that I can agree with, because TNO's mortality given sentience, the Transcendent One, was very much a separate character from TNO. So much so that it was a relevant, major, crucial plot-point.

 

[aeroaeko]

Play it. Just don't pay for it, because you'll want to return it.

It's 5$ on g2a. Is it not even worth that much?

 

[Luckmann]

Play it. Just don't pay for it, because you'll want to return it.

It's 5$ on g2a. Is it not even worth that much?

No. You'd seriously have to pay me to play it again.

 

[Zombra]

Play it. Just don't pay for it, because you'll want to return it.

It's 5$ on g2a. Is it not even worth that much?

Eh, based on your enthusiasm I'm sure you'll get $5 worth of entertainment.

 

[Modron]

It's 5$ on g2a. Is it not even worth that much?

Just wait until it gets bundled again.

 

[Yosharian]

I tried to go back to my old save that I lost interest in a few weeks after this first came out, but I can't remember what half of the mechanics are, or what I was going for with my build. And I really can't be bothered starting all over again. That's how I'd sum up my feelings towards this game: apathy. Meanwhile, Kingmaker is getting a patch in 2-3 weeks. Cannot wait for that shit.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Play it. Just don't pay for it, because you'll want to return it.

It's 5$ on g2a. Is it not even worth that much?

Characters: the devs have stated that they deliberately decided on 'normal' companions to offset the weirdness of everything else, most companions have the same backstory of 'got fucked up by some weird machine'
Story: an inferior copy of P:T that was cut/botched
Setting: nonexistent
Visuals: potentially good if there'd've been some more time on them, to add things like lighting
Combat: slower than an obese mexican granny
Itemisation: lolrandom
Writing: wordbloat+lack of any links or commonality between different lore-dumps = feels like eating lard

Pls post this as an official review

 

[hexer]

In PST all those actions were done by you but you can't remember any of it due to your amnesia.
In TTON all those actions were done by someone else who possessed your body.

Those previous TNOs weren't you. You even meet them in the end-game where they are clearly not you.

What?! Those incarnations WERE you and as Luckmann said: in your head.
The only thing closely resembling your "physical previous self" was the torn off hand you find but that's because you have regeneration.

You missed the point.
Here's the quote from game's producer Guido Henkel on that very topic
https://www.ign.com/articles/1999/03/04/planescape-torment-2

Instead of the traditional RPG method of gaining skills through experience, 'the Nameless One' will become more advanced through memories and recollections. "A single memory may increase your character by five levels instantly because he has done everything. He has been around for 10,000 years. He's been a 25th level Mage, and 25th level Fighter, and 25th level Thief, and a 25th level Cleric," said Henkel. "He already has the experience, he just has to trigger the memories of his former lives to regain those skills."

 

[hexer]

Roguey I dug up more details on the three reincarnations you meet in the Fortress of Regrets from Platter's old website ( http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/Platter/index.php )

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/Platter/crap/3incar.htm

The incarnations you meet in the Fortress are not there because they reached it during their lifetime. Only the Practical Incarnation did of those three.

1. The Original Incarnation tells you the crystal split you upon touching it;

Original Incarnation: "I am one of your incarnations. I was once lost, now I am here again" ... "Whatever you touched within the Fortress has brought pieces of yourself to the surface."


2. The "Sounding Stone" that the Practical Incarnation made also tells you this is what the crystal does;

Sounding Stone: "As for the crystal... it doesn't seem like it belongs in the Fortress, and its size and shape reminds me of something I've read in the annals, some sort of dimensional prison that segments the soul."


3. The Original Incarnation ponders why those three specific incarnations are there;

Nameless One: "I have had countless lives. Why are there only three incarnations here?"
Original Incarnation: "I do not know. Perhaps we were the three pieces that were somehow still present in your mind."
Nameless One: "Present? How?"
Original Incarnation: "I do not know for sure, but I would guess that when we die, traces of the former personality may remain in your mind..."


4. The Original Incarnation tells you he's never been to the Fortress before. Even though he did lie to you about some things, it's unlikely this was a lie considering #5.


5. The Original Incarnation couldn't possibly have gotten trapped in the Fortress considering;
a) The Transcendent One set up the crystal trap in the Fortress.
b) The Transcendent One did not exist until Ravel's ritual.
c) Ravel "killed" the Original Incarnation right after she made him immortal, as we learn from Ravel;

Ravel: "Not long after the spell a-drew to a close, I killed you to see if it had worked. You struggled so, but I kept my grip *tight* and watched you die your first of many deaths." Ravel *clacks* her teeth. "Then was I a-learned in its flaws..."
Nameless One: "What flaws?"
Ravel: "Ego enwraps us like a prison. Forgot I did that it ofttimes serves as a shield." Ravel clicks her tongue. "My pretty, pretty thing, there is much wisdom and understanding in the truth that life is a preparation for the ultimate goal: death. Our life is a means by which we learn *how* to die. If we FORGET such things..."
Nameless One: "So that's when you discovered I lost my memories when I died..."
Ravel: "Yess..." Ravel nods. "Unfortunate... without the mortality to hold such memories tight, the shell a body is..."

And from the Original Incarnation himself;

Good Incarnation: "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless One: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."


6. Aelwyn tells you she killed what was probably the Paranoid Incarnation;

Aelwyn: "You and I, Aelwyn, have met on two different occasions [...] the last more recently. Perhaps no more than fifty years ago [...] You lashed out at me, Aelwyn, made to slay me. Screamed how I, Aelwyn, could not fool you, would not ensnare and murder you [...] We had met in one of the northern towers of the Festhall, on the seventh floor. Before you could choke the life from me, I, Aelwyn, used my powers to bade you leap from a window to your death. When I, Aelwyn, finally went in search of your broken body, you had already gone..."


7. The Practical Incarnation tells you;

Practical Incarnation: "I was the first to breach this Fortress"


8. Chris Avellone has said "... the three incarnations were chosen just because of the Rule-of-Three in Planescape and because they were the ones that had the most impact on the player's life throughout the game." (source)

 

[Roguey]

What?! Those incarnations WERE you and as Luckmann said: in your head.
The only thing closely resembling your "physical previous self" was the torn off hand you find but that's because you have regeneration.

They're the person you used to be, but they're not you (if they were you, they would not have significantly different personalities). Just like The Changing God is the person you used to be.

 

[Darth Canoli]

hexer
Roguey

Now now, where's the popcorn ?

 

[hexer]

OK, I see you've made up your mind no matter what evidence I bring.
Your ego-defense shields are up which sucks because we're then slipping into paradoxes / irrationality while trying to discuss the opposite ... logic / rationality.
Anyway, I'll let the math do the talking.. it's easier to visualize relationships between objects with it.

The Nameless One
1 body.
~150 personalities (let's say they had an average lifespan of 50 years).
In the end, remembers 100% of all personalities' memories at once inside the same body.
TNO = Player

The Changing God
??? bodies.
1 personality.
In the end, remembers just it's own personality, no those of castoffs.
TLC remembers ~1% (if any) of TCG's memories.
TCG ≠ Player
TLC = Player

Do you now see why it's impossible to see them as equal .. TNO, TCG and TLC?
You must use math for drawing parallels and math says otherwise.
Their numbers don't match no matter the angle you look at them.

 

[Harry Easter]

OK, I see you've made up your mind no matter what evidence I bring.
Your ego-defense shields are up which sucks because we're then slipping into paradoxes / irrationality while trying to discuss the opposite ... logic / rationality.
Anyway, I'll let the math do the talking.. it's easier to visualize relationships between objects with it.

The Nameless One
1 body.
~150 personalities (let's say they had an average lifespan of 50 years).
In the end, remembers 100% of all personalities' memories at once inside the same body.
TNO = Player

The Changing God
??? bodies.
1 personality.
In the end, remembers just it's own personality, no those of castoffs.
TLC remembers ~1% (if any) of TCG's memories.
TCG ≠ Player
TLC = Player

Do you now see why it's impossible to see them as equal .. TNO, TCG and TLC?
You must use math for drawing parallels and math says otherwise.
Their numbers don't match no matter the angle you look at them.

Hmm, I thought that with the Revelation

Spoiler

The Spectre being an A.I. that only contains a few memories of the Changing God

that this opened a new interpretations about the Cast-Offs. Because

Spoiler

the Specter

can't do much without your consent. Which could mean that the Cast-Offs always were their own beings, but they believed to be the Changing God, so they did what they THOUGHT the changing god would do.

Spoiler

With help from a little voice in their head, of course.

Which would show again, that the whole "was it is a life worth?" - theme doesn't work and instead it should've been "What is life?" or "How you define your identity?"

 

[Neanderthal]

When TNO merges with all the past incarnations at the end of Torment then they all become one, all their actions are part of TNO and he is responsible for all of them because he is them. Pretty big amount of guilt and "knowing" to process.

 

[hexer]

Which could mean, that the Cast-Offs always were their own beings, but they believed to be the Changing God, so they did, what they THOUGHT the changing god would do.

Just to amuse ourselves, Castoffs' false beliefs could be interpreted via Folie a plusieurs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_à_deux

 

[agris]

I tried to go back to my old save that I lost interest in a few weeks after this first came out, but I can't remember what half of the mechanics are, or what I was going for with my build. And I really can't be bothered starting all over again. That's how I'd sum up my feelings towards this game: apathy. Meanwhile, Kingmaker is getting a patch in 2-3 weeks. Cannot wait for that shit.

What in Aweigh's name are you talking about? "Half the mechanics"? Your "build"? Did you play this game? Underrail it is not..

 

[Yosharian]

I tried to go back to my old save that I lost interest in a few weeks after this first came out, but I can't remember what half of the mechanics are, or what I was going for with my build. And I really can't be bothered starting all over again. That's how I'd sum up my feelings towards this game: apathy. Meanwhile, Kingmaker is getting a patch in 2-3 weeks. Cannot wait for that shit.

What in Aweigh's name are you talking about? "Half the mechanics"? Your "build"? Did you play this game? Underrail it is not..

That's how I play every game =p

 

[Roguey]

OK, I see you've made up your mind no matter what evidence I bring.
Your ego-defense shields are up which sucks because we're then slipping into paradoxes / irrationality while trying to discuss the opposite ... logic / rationality.
Anyway, I'll let the math do the talking.. it's easier to visualize relationships between objects with it.

The Nameless One
1 body.
~150 personalities (let's say they had an average lifespan of 50 years).
In the end, remembers 100% of all personalities' memories at once inside the same body.
TNO = Player

The Changing God
??? bodies.
1 personality.
In the end, remembers just it's own personality, no those of castoffs.
TLC remembers ~1% (if any) of TCG's memories.
TCG ≠ Player
TLC = Player

Do you now see why it's impossible to see them as equal .. TNO, TCG and TLC?
You must use math for drawing parallels and math says otherwise.
Their numbers don't match no matter the angle you look at them.

At the end of Torment, you absorb the memories of all the previous personalities who had control of your body, much like how in one of the optional endings of ToN, you absorb all the memories of every cast-off (alternately you can put yourself into this pool of memories and transfer them to The First, Matkina, or TCG's daughter).