Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Jaesun]

In this case, more polish simply means a longer post-production, which is good. Every major KS that has had an extended post-production has been the better for it.

In all fairness post-production sounds a hell of a lot better than polish and wouldn't seem so concerning, so I'm sure if they meant post-production they'd have said that instead of 'polish'.. but if they did mean post-production instead.. well, a comment about their ability to get their point across succinctly and accurately in writing raises red flags with me.

Did you back this? Considering I have yet to see ANY mention of ANY cRPG's you *supposedly* have played or even liked, why do you care?

Obviously you are here to try and troll (and you fail horribly at it by the way).

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

In this case, more polish simply means a longer post-production, which is good. Every major KS that has had an extended post-production has been the better for it.

In all fairness post-production sounds a hell of a lot better than polish and wouldn't seem so concerning, so I'm sure if they meant post-production they'd have said that instead of 'polish'.. but if they did mean post-production instead.. well, a comment about their ability to get their point across succinctly and accurately in writing raises red flags with me.

Did you back this? Considering I have yet to see ANY mention of ANY cRPG's you *supposedly* have played or even liked, why do you care?

Obviously you are here to try and troll (and you fail horribly at it by the way).

This is hardly trolling, and I happen to think asking for extra money for proper polish is fucking ridiculous, so you're damn right I want to know exactly what they mean by that, and yes, I am going to to reply to someone who seems to think they definitively know the intent behind words considering their definition is clearly different to what was said.

..and my fingerprints are all over posts saying what I enjoy and what I don't, so...

Rather than sounding pissed at me for 'bleeting on and on' considering the rest of the shit in this forum, you sound more butthurt that I would dare in the first place.

 

[Sensuki]

In all fairness post-production sounds a hell of a lot better than polish and wouldn't seem so concerning, so I'm sure if they meant post-production they'd have said that instead of 'polish'.. but if they did mean post-production instead.. well, a comment about their ability to get their point across succinctly and accurately in writing raises red flags with me.

More money = more development time, because money is used to pay for staff, it does not buy features itself. When they say more polish that means that money will allow them to extend the post-production period. They have said they are not going to generate new content with more money (aside from the Boom stretch goal) and that means that they won't be using it to extend Production (which is the development period they are in now).

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

In all fairness post-production sounds a hell of a lot better than polish and wouldn't seem so concerning, so I'm sure if they meant post-production they'd have said that instead of 'polish'.. but if they did mean post-production instead.. well, a comment about their ability to get their point across succinctly and accurately in writing raises red flags with me.

More money = more development time, because money is used to pay for staff, it does not buy features itself. When they say more polish that means that money will allow them to extend the post-production period. They have said they are not going to generate new content with more money (aside from the Boom stretch goal) and that means that they won't be using it to extend Production (which is the development period they are in now).

Polish means polish.

It's absolutely irrelevant how you want to interpret that statement, but what you said isn't what they said, and if they had meant what you said then they should have said it, instead of making a statement that was so against the spirit of what they meant that it's perfectly open to the kind of reaction to that statement that they have received from me and it further reinforces my reaction when W2 wasn't exactly the most polished release AND that they've made statements saying that they won't be delaying ToNN.. so there you go, I feel perfectly justified in taking the stance I have taken.

I react to what is said, not what someone might think they meant, especially when that someone has no more actual insight in to the matter than I have.

Is this going to go down as more trolling to or am I going to be blamed for 'bleeting on and on' again? If you don't want me to reply then don't force me to defend my position.

 

[Sensuki]

What do you think they're going to spend the money on then ?

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

In all fairness post-production sounds a hell of a lot better than polish and wouldn't seem so concerning, so I'm sure if they meant post-production they'd have said that instead of 'polish'.. but if they did mean post-production instead.. well, a comment about their ability to get their point across succinctly and accurately in writing raises red flags with me.

More money = more development time, because money is used to pay for staff, it does not buy features itself. When they say more polish that means that money will allow them to extend the post-production period. They have said they are not going to generate new content with more money (aside from the Boom stretch goal) and that means that they won't be using it to extend Production (which is the development period they are in now).

Polish means polish.

It's absolutely irrelevant how you want to interpret that statement, but what you said isn't what they said, and if they had meant what you said then they should have said it, instead of making a statement that was so against the spirit of what they meant that it's perfectly open to the kind of reaction to that statement that they have received from me and it further reinforces my reaction when W2 wasn't exactly the most polished release AND that they've made statements saying that they won't be delaying ToNN.. so there you go, I feel perfectly justified in taking the stance I have taken.

I react to what is said, not what someone might think they meant, especially when that someone has no more actual insight in to the matter than I have.

Is this going to go down as more trolling to or am I going to be blamed for 'bleeting on and on' again? If you don't want me to reply then don't force me to defend my position.

Alright, as an apology for my admittedly obvious remark, and to give you the benefit of the trolling doubt: I really think you don't understand the actual process of game design. Project scope is something that you want to have finalized before leaving pre-production. Failing to do so is one of the most blatant and consequential signs of gross mismanagement.

With WL2 shipped, inXile needs to begin moving into full-production. They cannot afford to spend funds on stretch goals (also known as C-list priorities).

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Inference. Intention. Meaning. These things are not lost on those who backed and are paying attention and in particular to those that have observed some inherent issues with crowdfunded games.

If you don't get these things then you can ask questions and get informed or you can draw conclusions and make bad arguments.

 

[Kem0sabe]

When developers, and in this case a writer, starts referring to their games writing as high quality prose...

It's not unlikely though, since we are talking about and

After reading CMC's fantasy series, i'm suddenly unimpressed by his work, mediocre doesnt even begin to describe the effort. Ziets on the other hand, did do some quality work on Mask of the Betrayer, but he also was creative lead on the piece of crap that was Dungeon Siege 3, so theres that. Luckily, there are other writers working on the game whose work i most definitely would call good writing, like Rothfuss.

PS:T and Mask of the Betrayer were 2 well written games, but even those i wouldn't call high quality prose... this grandstanding was undeserved before the launch of WL2 where it was the described as bestests reactive rpg, and it does little to endear them to me to see those kind of grandiose claims coming out of their mouths again.

 

[mvBarracuda]

Let's wait and see

Says the zen master

 

[Infinitron]

Luckily, there are other writers working on the game whose work i most definitely would call good writing, like Rothfuss.

Suddenly all of your opinions on writing take on a new light

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Luckily, there are other writers working on the game whose work i most definitely would call good writing, like Rothfuss.

Suddenly all of your opinions on writing take on a new light

Oh come on. While I certainly wouldn't criticize CMcC or GZiets, I think Rothfuss is pretty good at the first-person sardonic/angsty fantasy thing. He knows how to define a world/tone for his books and he knows how to stick to them. I find his books to be heads and shoulders above typical fantasy schlock.

 

[Darth Roxor]

all fantasy writing is garbage anyway

 

[Kem0sabe]

Luckily, there are other writers working on the game whose work i most definitely would call good writing, like Rothfuss.

Suddenly all of your opinions on writing take on a new light

Rothfuss has done better work than anyone else on the Torment writing team.

A young knight, surgically augmented by the secretive Council of Magi, discovers a highly placed conspiracy aimed at the heart of the Empire of Terona. Foresworn and forced to choose between his oath and his duty, he flees the capital with the king's infant daughter, the last surviving member of the dynasty. Called a traitor, and with the might of the Empire pursuing him, he must seek friends who can help him to stave the rising darkness at the heart of his home.

 

[Akratus]

all fantasy writing is garbage anyway

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

all fantasy writing is garbage anyway

I guess? Might as well just say "life is shit, kill yourself".

 

[Morality Games]

all fantasy writing is garbage anyway

Well, sure, though much in the same way nearly all storytelling is.

Stories in and of themselves are limp things. It is only in the experience of readers that narratives become great.

 

[Rake]

Luckily, there are other writers working on the game whose work i most definitely would call good writing, like Rothfuss.

Suddenly all of your opinions on writing take on a new light

Oh come on. While I certainly wouldn't criticize CMcC or GZiets, I think Rothfuss is pretty good at the first-person sardonic/angsty fantasy thing. He knows how to define a world/tone for his books and he knows how to stick to them. I find his books to be heads and shoulders above typical fantasy schlock.

Only if writing = prose. On all other fronts Rothfuss books are subpar

 

[Gondolin]

Rothfuss has done better work than anyone else on the Torment writing team.

That's bad news.

 

[Roguey]

Rothfuss has done better work than anyone else on the Torment writing team.

You didn't read From the Depths: Gold, did you?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Rothfuss has done better work than anyone else on the Torment writing team.

You didn't read From the Depths: Gold, did you?

No i didnt read any of the fiction on the setting.

 

[Ulminati]

all fantasy writing is garbage anyway

I guess? Might as well just say "life is shit, kill yourself".

Everything is shit.

 

[agris]

Rothfuss has done better work than anyone else on the Torment writing team.

You didn't read From the Depths: Gold, did you?

If my memory serves me, you enjoyed From the Depths, right? What was it that you liked about it?

 

[t]

The setting was hard to get into for a novella imho. Story was ok/meh.

 

[tuluse]

Rothfuss has done better work than anyone else on the Torment writing team.

A young knight, surgically augmented by the secretive Council of Magi, discovers a highly placed conspiracy aimed at the heart of the Empire of Terona. Foresworn and forced to choose between his oath and his duty, he flees the capital with the king's infant daughter, the last surviving member of the dynasty. Called a traitor, and with the might of the Empire pursuing him, he must seek friends who can help him to stave the rising darkness at the heart of his home.

Eyeroll this, but not

The riveting first-person narrative of a young man who grows to be the most notorious magician his world has ever seen. From his childhood in a troupe of traveling players, to years spent as a near-feral orphan in a crime- ridden city, to his daringly brazen yet successful bid to enter a legendary school of magic,

 

[ksaun]

I'd like to respond to some of the recent comments, hopefully to clarify some things.

"We’re not making the game bigger at this point and new funds serve primarily to increase the level of polish we’ll be able to achieve."

Not really very sure what to think of a comment like this. To me polish is making sure of bugquashing and stability so it doesn't crap all over you.

Does this mean that they would even consider the possibility of leaving it halfarsed just because 'you didn't give us enough money'? Polish is part of the whole, not a separate thing dependant on 'stuff' Varying degrees of polish would certainly point to varying degrees of 'giving a shit'.

It's true that it's a matter of degrees. I don't think it has to do with how much we care, though. Whenever we finish a game, there is a specific fix/enhancement/etc. that will be the lowest priority item that we managed to achieve, and another that is the highest priority one that we had to let go.

From the perspective of a creator, I've rarely worked on a game where I wouldn't have liked more time/$ to make it better. Finalization of a game is a triage process and you aren't able to fix/improve everything as much as you would have liked. Many of us are perfectionists, but diminishing returns and financial realities force us to draw a line.

This is a generalization, but we make games because we love making games. We hope that we can make a living doing so, and appreciate daily our families' understanding and support in our having chosen this volatile and demanding profession. What I mean is, any flaws in quality are due to our incompetence, not our not caring.

In all fairness post-production sounds a hell of a lot better than polish and wouldn't seem so concerning, so I'm sure if they meant post-production they'd have said that instead of 'polish'..

You're right -- "Post-production" is probably a better term. Its connotations for film, TV, etc. could be helpful, but are also potentially misleading in some ways. (For example, in film, you might be able to assume that VFX aren't added until post-production.) I haven't heard it used in video game development. I'm not sure why.

but if they did mean post-production instead.. well, a comment about their ability to get their point across succinctly and accurately in writing raises red flags with me.

Your criticism is fair.

(As an explanation: the game industry still lacks standardized definitions for many development terms, even internally. It can be challenging to be succinct, as most choices seem to carry baggage of some sort. (And it can be exhausting to try for sufficient precision that no one misinterprets or is confused.).)

Alright, as an apology for my admittedly obvious remark, and to give you the benefit of the trolling doubt: I really think you don't understand the actual process of game design. Project scope is something that you want to have finalized before leaving pre-production. Failing to do so is one of the most blatant and consequential signs of gross mismanagement.

Then, depending upon how you wish to define "project scope," you may accuse me of gross mismanagement. =)

I have found a agile-style approach to video game development to often be more effective, at least for the types of games I have worked on. I don't mean that the scope is unknown, but I do mean that certain aspects of the scope are left fluid so that the team can adjust as the project progresses. Among other benefits, this approach helps manage risks without sacrificing quality as much as some other approaches might.

After reading CMC's fantasy series, i'm suddenly unimpressed by his work, mediocre doesnt even begin to describe the effort.

I am embarrassed to say that I haven't read Colin's fantasy series, so I can't speak to that. I have found the conversations that Colin has thus far written for TTON to be excellent first drafts and expect them to improve further as we iterate.

Ziets on the other hand, did do some quality work on Mask of the Betrayer, but he also was creative lead on the piece of crap that was Dungeon Siege 3, so theres that.

I would posit that perhaps Dungeon Siege 3 had a different production focus than MotB (or TTON). Perhaps the title of "Creative Lead" involved different responsibilities in the two games. I am not blind to George's pivotal contributions to MotB (whose development I led) and hopefully am guiding TTON in a manner that will allow him to do his best work for it.

PS:T and Mask of the Betrayer were 2 well written games, but even those i wouldn't call high quality prose... this grandstanding was undeserved before the launch of WL2 where it was the described as bestests reactive rpg, and it does little to endear them to me to see those kind of grandiose claims coming out of their mouths again.

Frankly, I would prefer that everyone expect mediocrity from us, as that would minimize the disappointment. =) I'd much rather people be excited about the game after it's done than beforehand. We'll get plenty of things wrong and I have no doubt that there will be much fodder for criticism. Hopefully, we'll get more right than wrong and that at least our backers will feel we delivered on our vision.