Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Chaotic_Heretic]

The Effort mechanics, in the latest update, gives me an Arcanum fate point hard-on

Also, on dialogues, i think they way they plan to implement it, skill checks become obvious only after you pick the correct dialogue, will have that wonder of discovery and exploration, playing first time around. Also for later playthru munchkins, can make a list of which skills affects what dialogues without expending too much effort like digging into scripts and whatnot...

 

[evdk]

The Effort mechancis, in the latest update, gives me an Arcanum fate point hard-on...

Another thing to obsessively hoard and never use, you say?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

The Effort mechancis, in the latest update, gives me an Arcanum fate point hard-on...

Another thing to obsessively hoard and never use, you say?

Unlike Arcanum, Effort Points are a per-rest resource. SO the autistic hoarder in me will be triggered a lot less

 

[Infinitron]

So, Adam Heine, how will you prevent players from resting after every use of Effort? Urgency mechanics?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

I do hope there is some actual pressure to the pressure mechanics with the angel of entropy after you. Its pretty much a given that munchkins will save scum before using effort. Retards who want to destroy their experience will always find a way. The best thing about Fallout 1 is that even with the hugely generous 150day water chip limit, its quite feasible to pass it if you are derping around on the world map for an alien blaster or something.

 

[Adam Heine]

So, Adam Heine, how will you prevent players from resting after every use of Effort? Urgency mechanics?

We haven't talked much about resting yet, but it may depend more on when and where you're allowed to rest. Recovering Effort while chatting in a friend's house is one thing. Recovering it while working through a locked door, with an out-of-control biomechanical construct chasing you, is something else.

 

[Infinitron]

So, Adam Heine, how will you prevent players from resting after every use of Effort? Urgency mechanics?

We haven't talked much about resting yet, but it may depend more on when and where you're allowed to rest. Recovering Effort while chatting in a friend's house is one thing. Recovering it while working through a locked door, with an out-of-control biomechanical construct chasing you, is something else.

Well, so far you've described it as being used in dialogue, and dialogue usually takes place in a safe setting, so...

 

[Adam Heine]

Well, so far you've described it as being used in dialogue, and dialogue usually takes place in a safe setting, so...

Effort can apply to all skill use, in or out of dialogue (at least in the tabletop, and so far in our heads for Torment). As for dialogue usually being safe, we're thinking . . . maybe it isn't always.

 

[hiver]

Well, so far you've described it as being used in dialogue, and dialogue usually takes place in a safe setting, so...

Effort can apply to all skill use, in or out of dialogue (at least in the tabletop, and so far in our heads for Torment). As for dialogue usually being safe, we're thinking . . . maybe it isn't always.

Could you expand on the extent of Effort, as per my previous post about it, in this thread?

Its not an accusation of any sort, but the info is currently vague enough (understandably so) to see how it could end up being too much, in a sense of allowing a Nano to do Glaive or Jack specific things - and so allow the player to "unlock" too much content - thus making the game linear and reduce overall reactivity aspect.

Kind of like you can do everything in skyrim, regardless of the "build" and so effectively have only one playthrough.
- of course it wont be like skyrim, im only using that as an example to explain my concern.

 

[Adam Heine]

In terms of special abilities unique to your type (Nano, Glaive, Jack), you can't do those things unless you actually earn the ability. So a Glaive can't cast esoteries no matter how much Effort he uses.

The idea in Numenera is that anybody can attempt a task -- like picking a lock, persuading a guard, or jumping across a chasm. The difficulty of the task is determined by the task itself, not by the character attempting it. So jumping across a 6' chasm is (to make up a number) a Difficulty 3 Task. That difficulty determines what target number you have to roll to succeed. If you are trained in jumping, it decreases the difficulty. If you apply Effort, it decreases it even more.

So a trained jumper with low Might might have the same chance of success as a very strong, untrained person who spends their Might on the task. Additionally, a trained jumper with high Might would not only have a higher chance of success, but would be capable of jumps that the other two builds couldn't even try (or they could, but they'd fail). And an untrained character with low Might could maybe tackle an easy jump (low Might doesn't mean no Might), but any serious jump would probably be too difficult even with the Effort he could apply.

So it doesn't eliminate choice at all, but it does suggest your stat pools (Might, Speed, Intellect) are slightly more important than what skills you train in. Monte is fond of saying that Tier 1 characters are actually quite powerful already, unlike level 1 characters in most games. Effort is part of that.

And this is just talking about generic "difficult tasks." As I said in the first paragraph, there are lots of things that will make your character unique beyond stats and skills. Your type, descriptor, and focus (mostly type and focus) give you bonuses and abilities unavailable elsewhere.

 

[Adam Heine]

I should also add that we're still pre-prototype here. When we finally get something we can play around with, if we discover that this system -- while great for a PnP RPG -- sucks on a computer, we'll change it.

 

[Infinitron]

I should also add that we're still pre-prototype here. When we finally get something we can play around with, if we discover that this system -- while great for a PnP RPG -- sucks on a computer, we'll change it.

Over at Obsidian, Josh Sawyer and co seemed to have significant capacity to playtest Project Eternity's systems and mechanics long before a playable prototype of the actual game was produced. (I'm not sure exactly how they did it, possibly via pen and paper?)

Will inXile be doing something similar?

 

[Adam Heine]

I don't know Obsidian's staff numbers, but I suspect they have more programmers available for PE than we do for TTON (inXile's programmers are busy on Wasteland, of course). But we did just hire Steve, and I'm sure a prototype is somewhere on Kevin's Master Plan. I couldn't say when, though.

 

[Grunker]

I should also add that we're still pre-prototype here. When we finally get something we can play around with, if we discover that this system -- while great for a PnP RPG -- sucks on a computer, we'll change it.

Don't. What you described there seems really cool if you can get the resting mechanics to work. If you succeed in actually making the expenditure of Effort a difficult decision, then it looks really fun. Only caveat I see if you have too much restin' and too little to spend Effort on!

Also: do you plan to combat savescumming? I imagine someone spending Effort, failing a roll, then reloading until their spend effort actually works. Seems pretty dissatisfying to spend your daily Effort only to be screwed by the RNG.

 

[Adam Heine]

I should also add that we're still pre-prototype here. When we finally get something we can play around with, if we discover that this system -- while great for a PnP RPG -- sucks on a computer, we'll change it.

Don't. What you described there seems really cool if you can get the resting mechanics to work. If you succeed in actually making the expenditure of Effort a difficult decision, then it looks really fun. Only caveat I see if you have too much restin' and too little to spend Effort on!

The support is definitely appreciated . Monte was really happy to see our designs for implementing Effort, and in general, we want to stay true to the tabletop game wherever we can.

 

[hiver]

That sounds good to me.
I have no problem with effort enabling you to attempt to do relatively smaller things or feats like picking locks or persuading guards and such.

Especially when Effort is constrained to your specific build "skills" instead of being just allowed everywhere.

- Would be good to tie it to the narrative of a specific quest and previous choices player made - in places where that would make sense, naturally.


- as for changing it. Please do.
not in the sense of removing it entirely but in the sense of adapting it so it works better.

 

[Sensuki]

Over at Obsidian, Josh Sawyer and co seemed to have significant capacity to playtest Project Eternity's systems and mechanics long before a playable prototype of the actual game was produced. (I'm not sure exactly how they did it, possibly via pen and paper?)

Will inXile be doing something similar?

They actually had a working game before the Kickstarter. By game I mean Dungeon Siege 3 asset characters can walk around in a 3D modelled area.

Hector also would have been working on that waterfall area for a while before the campaign too I imagine.

 

[Infinitron]

Over at Obsidian, Josh Sawyer and co seemed to have significant capacity to playtest Project Eternity's systems and mechanics long before a playable prototype of the actual game was produced. (I'm not sure exactly how they did it, possibly via pen and paper?)

Will inXile be doing something similar?

They actually had a working game before the Kickstarter. By game I mean Dungeon Siege 3 asset characters can walk around in a 3D modelled area.

Hector also would have been working on that waterfall area for a while before the campaign too I imagine.

Well, it'd be harder to retrofit, but inXile could do the same with Wasteland 2.

 

[Sensuki]

Btw it is nice that Colin, Adam and co read and post in this thread ... as opposed to Obsidian who I think might lurk but avoid us like the plague hahah

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets

 

[Sensuki]

George also stated that he probably won't be doing any companion writing for P:E or TToN, he will instead be building non-party joinable NPCs and antagonists.

 

[Rake]

George also stated that he probably won't be doing any companion writing for P:E or TToN, he will instead be building non-party joinable NPCs and antagonists.

For ToN we knew. For PE also??
Source?

 

[Sensuki]

personal email convo from today and

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/465646993708967602

This might be surprising, but writing tons of dialogue isn't my favorite thing. I’ve had a couple jobs where I spent all day, every day on dialogue, and after a while, that wasn’t so much fun. So if I have my choice, I’ll write for the characters I feel like I “get,” and - if I’m the narrative lead - spend the time to make the major story characters really good. (I also enjoy writing for multiple NPCs who can play off one another.) I’ll happily delegate others to somebody else.

 

[hiver]

George also stated that he probably won't be doing any companion writing for P:E or TToN, he will instead be building non-party joinable NPCs and antagonists.

Looking forward to those antagonists.
Man this should be good. mm-mm!

(they better be good!)

 

[Western]

That sounds good to me.
I have no problem with effort enabling you to attempt to do relatively smaller things or feats like picking locks or persuading guards and such.

Especially when Effort is constrained to your specific build "skills" instead of being just allowed everywhere.

- Would be good to tie it to the narrative of a specific quest and previous choices player made - in places where that would make sense, naturally.


- as for changing it. Please do.
not in the sense of removing it entirely but in the sense of adapting it so it works better.

Perhaps effort could be made into a limited resource, earned by certain quests or actions like fate points in Arcanum? I found that to be an intersting mechanic, but I would make effort points less rare.