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Torment: Tides of Numenera crisis concept

Midair

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I haven't seen much discussion of T:TON's new concept of crises, presented here at length. Obviously it is too early to know many details, but I thought it might be interesting to speculate on how the concept might work or hear opinions on how it should work.

It seems like a fairly big, new idea in crpg design, coming from established talent working on a real game no less. What are everyone's expectations or hopes for the concept? Has anyone thought up something similar before? My thoughts: will certain stats/skills get the most narrative content, like INT in Planescape? Is a crisis substantially different from a dialogue tree with skill checks? Is it too ambitious?
 

Lancehead

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They sound basically quests with multiple solutions with time constraints on top.
 

ghostdog

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:greatjob:
 

hiver

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I like the idea. But as i said in the news post, the example given is very simplistic, based on only two Tides.
the seemingly nice blue and bad red.

So, first - its hard to imagine such situation or quest example using more of the Tides.
Secondly - it imposes the same old simplified binary extreme choices between being good and bad, even if the game doesnt call those good or bad.
Changing the names doesnt really change the meaning, here.

Then the idea that all "violence" gives you red tide "points" is just... so crude, but that may well be just the result of working with this very simplified example of the concept.
I hope so.
 
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tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I think it's about time someone put some pressure on situations outside of combat. The only previous attempts have been locking playings into conversations once they start them.

I'm very excited to see them in action.
 

Midair

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I wonder if the goal of emulating tabletop encounters is reasonable. The designers are not going to be able to anticipate every approach a player might take in a situation. They can plan for the most logical approaches, but even this is problematic when the designer and player are not sitting across the table from each other.

In Arcanum, for example, I assumed that there must be a way into the villain's lair that did not involve killing the guards out front, because the game hinted at a choice to ally with him. So I spent a long time trying to figure out if I was missing something until I realized I could just kill the guards and still ally with their master.

When you have predefined choices, even a lot of them, you end up in this metagame of figuring out what the choices are, which does not exist if you simply do not have such choices, or if, as in a tabletop game, the choices are not predefined.
 

Grunker

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I think it's about time someone put some pressure on situations outside of combat. The only previous attempts have been locking playings into conversations once they start them.

I'm very excited to see them in action.

Cue the usual discussion about time limits.

For my own part, I'm not against such a design in theory (really, I'm not against any way of designing anything in theory). Of course this design could work, I simple don't trust game developers. Bugs and bad utility in games is normally annoyance in RPGs. With time limits, they become back-breaking. God forgive you if you think Ironman is a challenging way to play, because with Ironman, a slight convience-bug during your time limit quest might break it entirely.

This happened to me in Conquistador quite recently, in fact. A small problem with pathing that wouldn't usually be a problem fucked me over since I was on a timer to save someone. Another example is when my game of BG was completely destroyed because their was a small bug with the script in the 'you get poisoned'-quest. With no saves pre-poisoning, gone was the game (didn't know how to CLUA in the antidote back then).

Beyond that, the concept sounds very exciting. I just don't trust developers - especially RPG developers - to finish this shit properly.

The design itself sounds cool (if very ambitious), but yeah. Technical challenges should always be included in the discussion of game design concepts.
 

hiver

Guest
The only problem with time limits is if they are applied in such a way that failing means game over. Or ending a whole quest line.

If, on the contrary, time limits are applied only where such limit makes sense in the narrative of specific quest setup, then failing to meet a specific time limit means you just closed one specific path through the quest - which then necessitates you to take another - its all gravy.
 

DeepOcean

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The only problem with time limits is if they are applied in such a way that failing means game over. Or ending a whole quest line.

If, on the contrary, time limits are applied only where such limit makes sense in the narrative of specific quest setup, then failing to meet a specific time limit means you just closed one specific path through the quest - which then necessitates you to take another - its all gravy.
That is a much better alternative, you still feel the pressure of time without the annoyance of failling because of the clock.
 

Midair

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I see the problem with time limits as a specific case of a more general problem, in which the player does not know if they are doing what the designers intended or if they are doing something that is going to lead to a failure state. The thing that can be aggravating about Fallout's water chip time limit is that you do not know if taking side quests will waste your time and make the game unwinnable or if the designers intended for the player to take some quests to gain XP before tackling the water chip.* I would expect the same kind of problem to arise in Torment 2's crises, whether time related or not. A crisis is supposed to offer a choice of paths, but how are you supposed to make that choice when you do not know what was going on in the designer's head when they created each path?

*of course in this example it turns out the time limit is generous and mostly just a psychological pressure
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
how are you supposed to make that choice when you do not know what was going on in the designer's head when they created each path?
Because they should make it clear what is going to happen in a general sense through this amazing form of communication humans have developed called "words".
 

Midair

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It is a one-way communication though. The whole idea of these so-called reactive encounters implies a collaboration between the player and the designer, much like tabletop players and GM. But the crpg player CAN'T use words, all they can do is choose from among the predefined paths created by the designer, hence the need to know what the designer was thinking, or to use trial and error to test out each path.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
What you're saying is that c&c can't be well done in a video game, and I disagree with that.
 

Midair

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I am trying to examine the challenges of doing it well. How do you make choices feel like choices instead of a metagame?
 

ksaun

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To elaborate on a few points to help the discussion:

1. The Red/Blue dichotomy illustrated in the example differs from what we intend for TTON in two key ways:
  • We see the Tides as generally operating behind the scenes – they typically won’t be as explicit as in the Crisis example. Your choices will be about what makes sense for the situation. Sometimes the Tides might be directly relevant, but usually they’ll be tangential; your choices won’t be forced to fit the Tides.
  • Those who have observed that the depiction of Red and Blue are too simplistic are correct. We don’t intend for Torment to simplify to Red = Violence and, in fact, Red covers a host of concepts including passion, emotion, action, change, pathos, zeal. In the full game, we’ll have the benefit of hours of gameplay leading up to such a situation. This will give us the opportunity to convey more of the subtlety of the Tides. For this example, we chose to be more explicit because it had to stand alone.
2. We’re not imagining time constraints so much as time relevance (and it would be in the context of the Crisis not the entire game/area). For example, you might have a short time to prepare before potentially hostile forces arrive. Or a light source may be faltering, which would plunge you into darkness if you don’t arrange for an alternative fast enough (or maybe the darkness would be to your advantage…) Our goal is to have “failure” be more about appropriate consequences for the situation and not an inferior state that leads you to want to reload. We recognize that this is easier said than done, and I doubt we will fully achieve this ideal, but it’s our intent.

3. The concerns and challenges noted in this thread raise great points and suggest that iteration on the design (both of the system and each Crisis) will be even more important than usual.

4. I can appreciate the skepticism of our pulling this off. =) The idea is one thing, but the execution is where the challenge is. Part of the approach we’re taking here is to restrain our ambition in terms of quantity. For example, suppose there were just a dozen or so Crises in a standard playthrough, averaging perhaps 20-30 minutes of gameplay each. With this limited number of these hand-crafted set pieces to design and implement, we could be much more ambitious in terms of their quality (including how much C&C each provides). We have some concerns that this could be too few, but are inclined to favor quality. Then we can strive to get ahead so that we can implement more with much less risk to quality.​
 

Hobz

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Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
What's most interesting for me in the crises concept is the part about trying to capture P&P flexibility.

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For example let's say I have a combat spell (or esotery) that lower a foe's intelligence (in order to reduce it's magical damage or the array of spells he can use for example). I'd like that spell to usable outside of combat and depending of circumstances, open up new dialogue options with a dumbed down npc.
 

Zed

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I think it's an interesting idea. This is by far the most ballsy RPG coming out from Kickstarter. I'm glad they're taking the opportunity to try some new stuff.

2. We’re not imagining time constraints so much as time relevance (and it would be in the context of the Crisis not the entire game/area). For example, you might have a short time to prepare before potentially hostile forces arrive. Or a light source may be faltering, which would plunge you into darkness if you don’t arrange for an alternative fast enough (or maybe the darkness would be to your advantage…) Our goal is to have “failure” be more about appropriate consequences for the situation and not an inferior state that leads you to want to reload. We recognize that this is easier said than done, and I doubt we will fully achieve this ideal, but it’s our intent.

So it's time-as-an-environmental-factor rather than a quest variable?
 

ksaun

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What's most interesting for me in the crises concept is the part about trying to capture P&P flexibility.

For example let's say I have a combat spell (or esotery) that lower a foe's intelligence (in order to reduce it's magical damage or the array of spells he can use for example). I'd like that spell to usable outside of combat and depending of circumstances, open up new dialogue options with a dumbed down npc.

By P&P flexibility, we meant specifically within a Crisis.

Your example raises another important point and it's one we're still contemplating -- whether we ensure all abilities can be used everywhere or if we restrict some abilities to only be usable/useful within a Crisis. The main advantage of the latter is that if we accept this limitation, then we can go over-the-top in terms of what some of the abilities can do. For example, you can imagine the possibilities with abilities involving magnetism or creating illusions. But to implement convincingly across the entire game world wouldn't be feasible (unless the game were built around a very small set of such abilities). Constraining certain types of options to Crises lets us take the concept further.

On the other hand, we of course don't want players to find themselves in situations where they have obvious options that they can't choose only because the game doesn't allow it.

Applying this to your cool example of reducing a target's intelligence -- it would be very possible to have such a power that opens up new dialogue options with all of the NPCs within Crises. So besides its combat application, you could find other strategic uses, too. And we could have those Crisis dialogues adjust in very satisfying ways. But if we tried to account for that option in all conversations across the entire game... it could require an extreme amount of work for this ability to feel meaningful. That could be worth the effort if the PC always had this ability and it was key to the game and character development. But if it's one of a host of RPG customization choices, then we're quickly out of scope.

For your specific example, I think it would feel lacking if you could use it to influence dialogue within Crises, but not outside of them -- especially given the focus of dialogue in Torment. But for some other abilities this approach would work better.

There's some balance and we're thinking about how to best walk the line.

So it's time-as-an-environmental-factor rather than a quest variable?

Within a Crisis, yes.
 

Hobz

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Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
I was picturing it within a Crisis as well but failed to mention it.

I wasn't thinking about it as an always available feature, but more of a rare use of this skill, highly dependent of the situation, but you're right, if I can use it one time why can't I use it nearly all the time ? It would just feel frustrating when the option is not available. But if you need to implement it everywhere along with plenty of other skills you'd never be able to finish the game.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a lengthy answer to what's basically a childish and stupid idea. :love:
 

Adam Heine

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Thank you for taking the time to write such a lengthy answer to what's basically a childish and stupid idea. :love:

It is so NOT a childish or stupid idea. It's a super cool idea that we wish we could implement as it deserves. Hopefully we'll be able to implement enough equally cool ideas to make this game just as satisfying.
 

hiver

Guest
I think, maybe the right answer would be not to allow such omnipotent abilities in the first place.

They only create trouble. Not only through examples already mentioned but through inability of enemies to do that to you.
Having an ability that no enemy has, is a big no-no, im sure we can all agree with that.
-edit- hmm... considering the setting this might not be the best hard rule to take. Surely at least some times we will find some numenera artifact which will be unique... hmm...

While it may seem as a cool idea, just by itself... if it cannot fit with the program then the execution would not be cool.


As for violence, as ive already said - it depends on what it is used for.
Examples: Is it self defense? Are you protecting someone else and for which reasons? Goodness of your heart? The right thing to do? Returning a favor? Purely business? Or even more complicated - purely business to achieve another goal which may not be business like at all. Vengeance? Passion? Justice zeal? Lethal or non-lethal (both may have diverse consequences).

I think if the issue is thought about in this way - it could play nicely with a much wider array of theoretical Tide tangents.
This would also enable the team to ascribe a Tide affinity to the player well after the violent deed (or combat) itself took place - depending on other parameters of the quest and further choices and consequences the player achieved.
Say... closer to, or at the very end of any specific Crisis, instead of at the moment when violence is perpetrated.
 
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tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
4. I can appreciate the skepticism of our pulling this off. =) The idea is one thing, but the execution is where the challenge is. Part of the approach we’re taking here is to restrain our ambition in terms of quantity. For example, suppose there were just a dozen or so Crises in a standard playthrough, averaging perhaps 20-30 minutes of gameplay each. With this limited number of these hand-crafted set pieces to design and implement, we could be much more ambitious in terms of their quality (including how much C&C each provides). We have some concerns that this could be too few, but are inclined to favor quality. Then we can strive to get ahead so that we can implement more with much less risk to quality.​
I hope you do favor quality over quantity. If the choices and consequences are well done, game length will be increased from multiple playthroughs. Also, Torment is a game that says "tight experience" to me more than "lots of stuff to do". It's like the inverse of the Elder Scrolls.

Your example raises another important point and it's one we're still contemplating -- whether we ensure all abilities can be used everywhere or if we restrict some abilities to only be usable/useful within a Crisis.
I hope you generally go more with general abilities that can be used systematically. To me that's one of the main differences between RPGs and adventure games. In adventure games, anything you can do is a specific context sensitive action, while RPGs have systems the player can interact with. It gives a much stronger feeling that the player is in control (which isn't necessary in an adventure game).

On the other hand, I've read people saying both Fallout and Planescape: Torment are RPG-adventure hybrids or RPGs with adventure game elements. So maybe adventure elements aren't a bad thing.
 

ksaun

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As for violence, as ive already said - it depends on what it is used for.
Examples: Is it self defense? Are you protecting someone else and for which reasons? Goodness of your heart? The right thing to do? Returning a favor? Purely business? Or even more complicated - purely business to achieve another goal which may not be business like at all. Vengeance? Passion? Justice zeal? Lethal or non-lethal (both may have diverse consequences).

I think if the issue is thought about in this way - it could play nicely with a much wider array of theoretical Tide tangents.
This would also enable the team to ascribe a Tide affinity to the player well after the violent deed (or combat) itself took place - depending on other parameters of the quest and further choices and consequences the player achieved.
Say... closer to, or at the very end of any specific Crisis, instead of at the moment when violence is perpetrated.

Your comments raise a very important point, and highlight something that distinguishes the Tides from, say, D&D's alignment system. The Tides don't care about your intentions. They only care about your actions. We made this choice quite deliberately, with one reason being that we (i.e., the game) can't read your mind. We only know that you did something, not why you did it. (Exception: if you choose, for example, a "(Lie)" or "(Truth)" dialogue option, then you've told us something about your intentions.) With the Tides judging player actions, changes to one's Tides should more often match what the player is expecting. (Note that my personification of the Tides here is just because of how I like to write; you shouldn't interpret this to mean that the Tides are necessarily alive.)

Coming from morality systems like the Ultima virtues and D&D alignment, I've found the change in mindset to think about actions instead of intent to be trickier than I had expected. Clearly communicating the nature of the Tides to players is another one of our challenges. (This reminds me that we should probably talk about the Tides in more detail in a future update as we have more to say about them then we have thus far.)

The question of when/how to reveal any changes to your Tides is an ongoing consideration. (Along these lines, one thing we're thinking of is having a Skill whose effects include more immediate/precise feedback on Tide changes. In this way, the default experience can be more natural, but someone who does want to meta-game the Tides more can make an in-game choice to do so. Even so, I agree with you and we're favoring not-quite-immediate effects/feedback.)

I hope you do favor quality over quantity. If the choices and consequences are well done, game length will be increased from multiple playthroughs. Also, Torment is a game that says "tight experience" to me more than "lots of stuff to do". It's like the inverse of the Elder Scrolls.

I agree.

I hope you generally go more with general abilities that can be used systematically. To me that's one of the main differences between RPGs and adventure games. In adventure games, anything you can do is a specific context sensitive action, while RPGs have systems the player can interact with. It gives a much stronger feeling that the player is in control (which isn't necessary in an adventure game).

On the other hand, I've read people saying both Fallout and Planescape: Torment are RPG-adventure hybrids or RPGs with adventure game elements. So maybe adventure elements aren't a bad thing.

We are favoring abilities that can be used systematically, but we are also appreciating the similarities of Planescape: Torment to adventure games and are finding some design inspiration from that genre as well. (It will feel like an RPG, though.)
 

Shadowmant

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I agree to quality of quantity in the general sense but I also worry with the example given it may be too short. Take Shadowrun returns as an example. It was (in my opinion) an excellent game coming out of kickstarter but was criticized for being too short (About 5-7 hours long). They had the advantage of it having a great editor to allow people to make more content and also the promise for a further campaign to come at a later date. Torment is (at least for now) just a stand alone release, so just 5-6 hours of game play would definitely feel like a let down for me.
 

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