Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cassar]

Remind me how the console ports ruined Wasteland 2. Honest question.

That wasnt the case there. Wasteland 2 was designed for M/KB, without consideration for future console ports. Then they forced that semi non functional console port for some reason. But now im sure they're designing the gameplay and interactions based on what is feasible and confortable for a pad. Im sure they've had situations where they could have implemented something on PC, but didnt because it wouldnt have worked on pads. They did something like this with Wasteland 2 DC.

Avellone talks about this in a talk about Eternity while it was in development. Its not the same situation, but so you can get an idea. These type of concessions for gamepads happen everytime, in all games, but most people dont know how much supporting a pad can change a game's design and gameplay as opposed to taking full advantage of what M/KB allows you to do and not worry about the ease of making a future console port.

 

[Infinitron]

We're already playing Torment right now. It's not going to suddenly transform into a different game.

 

[Grotesque]

so much for Fargo pandering to the pc crowd

what... that trophy wife and mansion will not pay for themselves!

 

[Rev]

Jesus Christ, the Codex is on a spin again. The same thing happened with W2 and with Divinity: OS. Both had console versions, but that doesn't affected the PC version at all. Yet some of you idiots are all gloom and doom again! This happened the third time, but you still act like a retarded child.

OMG, Fargo offers a console version which doesn't affect the PC version, what a scumbag! And don't tell me that "oh, but it affects the PC, version" because it fucking doesn, you pathetic piece of shit!

WL2 and D:OS had console ports after the PC release, this time they're releasing at the same time on every platform. This means that they're devolping the game with the console crowd in mind (they've already started to dumb down the systems, in fact), and only a fool (or a very naive person) would believe that they would work on two totally different versions with no touch points between the two, which would cost them more money than trying to cut edges where possible, even more so in this case since the game is a fucking mess that got delayed endless times and has surely cost inXile more than they initially thought. Also, we know how Fargo works.

Full Codex hyperbole achieved.

The game is much better than WL2 based on writing alone. The only thing a console port is going to affect is combat, and combat has been kinda shit from the beginning.

Not true. It may (and probably will) affect the UI and also pretty much everything else may be turned down to cater a bigger, dumber audience. It's already happened with other games.
Also, it's impossible that they've started to work on the port in the last month, so this move nobody asked for has also caused at least the last couple delays. So, we're getting the game three years late because they want to pander the console crowd. GG, Fargo.

Yeah, OK. Unless you can point me to specific examples, I'm gonna say you don't really know what you're talking about.

The problem with this game has been and will continue to be this: Numenera. They've actually made a good-faith attempt to adapt the tabletop game to computer, and that's kind of a mistake. It's a system designed primarily for role playing with very shallow and uninteresting combat. Frankly, I would have preferred that they just take the setting of Numenera and combine it with a combat system of their own design.

WL2 was shit to begin with, so they couldn't ruin it too much I guess (and I don't care about that game enough to point out the differences from the two versions: I started the game on realease, abandoned it, tried again with the DC and abondoned it again), but just look at BioWare's "evolution" over time and then tell me how catering to consoles hasn't affect the quality of their productions. Even if we restrict our example to the Dragon Age series the trend is obvious: the first was developed with PC in mind and was the only decent one, the sequels were console-centric and they were godawful, and the systems were dumbed down a lot (despite the fact that there was nothing complex in the first game).

 

[ArchAngel]

We're already playing Torment right now. It's not going to suddenly transform into a different game.

Well it already is transformed starting with health bar and seems a lack of stuff like GM intrusions and using Xp to reroll rolls.

 

[Maculo]

I do not know how I feel about this. I did not have much hope for the combat system to begin with, and so I do not know how much of a difference console-friendly changes will make (this assumes there have been console-friendly changes). Granted, I have not paid much attention since Alpha due to work.

Is the story and characters interesting at least?

 

[Kem0sabe]

We're already playing Torment right now. It's not going to suddenly transform into a different game.

It's already in the process of transforming, with reworked console friendly features. It's highly possible they will change it further.

 

[Cassar]

Fargo's relationship with EA goes back to 1985, when he made the original Bard's Tale for the then fledgling publisher. 28 years on, he's still making innovative games for the PC market; but does he have any plans to bring his latest games to current or next-generation consoles? After all, Torment won't release until 2015.

"It’s certainly possible and technically feasible," he says. "However, we’ve gone to the crowd and they’ve given us money for a very specific purpose, which is to put our games on the PC, Mac and Linux. So that’s where we’re expending 100% of our efforts. We don’t spend any of our time wondering whether it can or can’t be done on consoles, because that isn’t our charter. Our charter is to deliver these first versions".

Fargo in 2013

 

[Fry]

but just look at BioWare's "evolution" over time and then tell me how catering to consoles hasn't affect the quality of their productions. Even if we restrict our example to the Dragon Age series the trend is obvious: the first was developed with PC in mind and was the only decent one, the sequels were console-centric and they were godawful, and the systems were dumbed down a lot (despite the fact that there was nothing complex in the first game).

That would be relevant if we were talking about Bioware.

I've played through the T:ToN beta twice. If there are areas where compromises were made to accommodate consoles, they're not apparent to me. The combat has been clunky from the start and continues to be so, but not in a way that would make sense for controllers. It's just a weak system.

 

[Infinitron]

We're already playing Torment right now. It's not going to suddenly transform into a different game.

Well it already is transformed starting with health bar and seems a lack of stuff like GM intrusions and using Xp to reroll rolls.

Sure, and Wasteland 2 was supposed to have a stealth skill, which was removed long before the console port ever entered the picture. Whether you want to believe that's because of balance or because dumbing down, it doesn't have to be related to consoles.

Basically it's my opinion that in 2016, console compatibility doesn't have to automatically equal decline anymore if the game really is made with a PC focus. The technical limitations of consoles are no longer a problem for games like these. It wouldn't surprise me if there are more multiplatform releases like this in the future - maybe Tyranny, maybe D:OS 2.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The technical limitations of consoles are no longer a problem for games like these.

Why not? Do consoles come with mouse and keyboard and non-retarded users these days?

if the game really is made with a PC focus.

That's a big "if", though.
If for example they stop at every feature and consider if it works on consoles or adapt it to work, then I'd say it's a problem.

 

[FeelTheRads]

By the way, this shit was going on during Interplay's awesome venture into consoles. Woah, consoles man, they're like powerful and everybody has them. Xbox is totally like a PC except you can play it on your couch! Now you never have to get out of your fart stained couch to play that new Fallout game!

 

[Infinitron]

Why not? Do consoles come with mouse and keyboard and non-retarded users these days?

I was referring to things like console RAM limitations that prohibit large levels or lots of NPCs appearing at the same time (although that might be a problem because of Unity rather than consoles )

That's a big "if", though.
If for example they stop at every feature and consider if it works on consoles or adapt it to work, then I'd say it's a problem.

One such feature would be "this game has a fuckton of reading". That in itself is a PC feature IMO - a game with a console focus wouldn't have that much text in the first place.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And how much console sales would it take for them to "fix" that for the next game? As much as W2 sold, maybe?

 

[vortex]

Simultaneous release with consoles is the best move for developers.
Also, there is hope now PoE2 will come on consoles.

 

[Fry]

One such feature would be "this game has a fuckton of reading". That in itself is a PC feature IMO - a game with a console focus wouldn't have that much text in the first place.

This. Porting Torment to console is stupid not because it's going to affect the PC version, but because it's a horrible idea for a couch game. I can't imagine peering at reams of text two meters away on a TV will be even remotely enjoyable.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also, there is hope now PoE2 will come on consoles.

Indeed. Preferably as a console exclusive.

 

[Rev]

That would be relevant if we were talking about Bioware.

I've played through the T:ToN beta twice. If there are areas where compromises were made to accommodate consoles, they're not apparent to me. The combat has been clunky from the start and continues to be so, but not in a way that would make sense for controllers. It's just a weak system.

It's not jut BioWare, though. Pretty much every developer has reduced the complexity of its games after going to consoles: it's true for BioWare, it is so for Bethesda, CDP and even non-rpg devs. Now, some of them managed to continue to make good games despite pandering to consoltards and dumbing down their products, but many others failed to find a good balance and just made worse games.

Torment's combat was never its main feature, but console gamers usually like their "RPGs" to be huge, to be epic, to have quest compass, fast-paced action, not to be pushed back by a wall of complexity (not just in combat, also in quest and world design), etc. Now, inXile won't just insert a quest compass in Torment to appease them, but if they want to be successful on consoles (and they want to, otherwise they wouldn't have made the port) they will have to make console-friendly features, which often don't pair that well with developing a sound PC old-school rpg, to say the least. It's a bit naive to ignore the problems just because "the combat was always meant to be shit".

 

[Fry]

Torment's combat was never its main feature, but console gamers usually like their "RPGs" to be huge, to be epic, to have quest compass, fast-paced action, not to be pushed back by a wall of complexity (not just in combat, also in quest and world design), etc. Now, inXile won't just insert a quest compass in Torment to appease them, but if they want to be successful on consoles (and they want to, otherwise they wouldn't have made the port) they will have to make console-friendly features, which often don't pair that well with developing a sound PC old-school rpg, to say the least. It's a bit naive to ignore the problems just because "the combat was always meant to be shit".

You're providing lots of examples of horrible things that could be done to the game to dumb it down for consoles, but nothing that actually has been done. And, no, the health bar is not a very compelling argument.

I have no doubt that inXile would love to make a console hit and thus tons of money, but unless they've completely redone everything about it in the past month, this game is never going to be that.

 

[Rev]

You're providing lots of examples of horrible things that could be done to the game to dumb it down for consoles, but nothing that actually has been done. And, no, the health bar is not a very compelling argument.

I have no doubt that inXile would love to make a console hit and thus tons of money, but unless they've completely redone everything about it in the past month, this game is never going to be that.

And what exactly should I say more than pointing out the historical record of every company going after the console crowd?
I didn't even play Torment's beta because I didn't want spoilers (also Fargo's lust for money made me unable to claim access to it unless I gave him another 20 dollars), so I can't talk about this game in detail.
I'm just saying how things have always turned out when devs started pandering the console market, so either they'll try to appease consoltards by dumbing down the game or they'll do nothing and sell like shit, losing the money invested in the porting. Second option doesn't seem that likely to me, but we'll see how this move will turn out for Torment/inXile.
I hope you're right and the game will be good, despite Fargo's attempts at ruining it. Maybe it will be, but there have been a lot of bad signs starting from Saunders' departure and this is just another one. It's hard to have high expectations about the game right now.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And what exactly should I say more than pointing out the historical record of every company going after the console crowd?

Well, apparently it's widely considered that nothing actually matters. No matter what happens, you shouldn't criticize and the Codex especially is always going overboard with criticism, even though it turns out it's often valid criticism. It is a mystery still how that one works.

But don't forget! Rather than criticize and be a hater, better swallow everything and be a sheep! If you're not a sheep, then you're doing it wrong.

 

[Zombra]

Remind me how the console ports ruined Wasteland 2. Honest question.

It was ruined from the start.

Game was already a piece of shit to start with, how can you ruin something that's already shit?

lol, so basically we all agree that Wasteland 2 wasn't dumbed down to accommodate consoles. They said they weren't going to dumb it down and they didn't. But this time they will because ...

we know how Fargo works.

No; humor me. How does he work?

Going by Wasteland 2, it looks to me like he says a game will be PC-focused and not dumbed down, and then it is PC-focused and not dumbed down. That's called a track record. Simultaneous development on this project doesn't automatically turn it into a lie this time.

If you guys hate Wasteland 2, fine, there may be legitimate reasons, but the console port isn't one of them. If you want to guess that consoles are going to fuck up TTON because sometimes some companies let that happen, also fine, but you're not just guessing, you're guessing in the face of a track record that contradicts you.

I don't have a crystal ball either, but if this is the most substantial concern y'all have, TTON will be the best game ever.

 

[Fry]

No matter what happens, you shouldn't criticize

Only in your imagination is anyone saying this. There's plenty of thoughtful and meaningful criticism around here. Too bad it's often buried under piles of uninformed reactionary shitposting.

 

[Bester]

Losing a huge company like Interplay just because you missed your chance with the console market is something that definitely leaves a mark on the psyche.

I think subconsciously he's still there, at Interplay, trying to port any title he can to consoles, trying to save the company.

Does this game use the same engine like Pillars?
It looks like it's full 3D.

I'ts not. Same pre-rendered 2D as Pillars.

It does look like they use actual 3D in the backgrounds sometimes. The sliding pillars in the first location, for example. I forgot what else looked like 3D, haven't played in a long time, but there definitely was more.

 

[Sacred82]

Losing a huge company like Interplay just because you missed your chance with the console market is something that definitely leaves a mark on the psyche.

I think subconsciously he's still there, at Interplay, trying to port any title he can to consoles, trying to save the company.