Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera announced for PS4 and Xbox One, gets new trailer

[Fenix]

I think we better should refrain from posting from such pics at least without spoiler, because it is too personl thing.
Its already looks as if we are asking for trouble.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Going back to my jazz analogy, what if I got 5 million dollars? First off I would not do things this way, get all the money up front with no game attached. But say I did. What do I do? I HAVE to deliver this jazz fest?

I go to the jazz hall and pick up whoever is lying around. Now first off the whole point was that jazz today sucks. SUCKS. So how is this going to help, to pick out a bunch of shitty jazz players and maybe one or two guys who were awesome....30 years ago. Sort of at random because most the best ones have their own company, many went into other stuff. Some are dead.

Now all of them will say that they love the old jazz, but they use shitty modern instruments, they have different specialties and so on. Some of which I can care a fuck less about.

Now compare that to forming a band. Well, that is a much different story. You don't jam a bunch of guys together, you slowly develop it. You usually start with some core of buddies who develop their skills together and then lineup changes require a bunch of auditions and crap, every personnel change is a big deal.

That's how it used to be for every employee, how it had to be because there was no industry. That's not even mentioning the failed D tier writers that work in games....which also have more writing than ever.

Apart from the fact that jazz sucks no matter what -period- this is basically it.
It's like putting out a call for applications. 4 young musicians wanted for a new band that is as good as the Beatles. We already have Jermaine Jackson and Cyndi Lauper on the managing team.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Hey guys, just to clear up some points that we may not have touched on enough in our Kickstarter update!

We've seen some comments suggesting that backer funds from the Kickstarter are going towards the console versions of the game. These are fair concerns but rest assured, not a single penny of that money went towards console development. On top of the Kickstarter funding, inXile has put in multiple millions of dollars towards development of the game for PC, Mac, and Linux. In addition, Techland is footing the bill for console development.

We said during the Kickstarter that we weren't going to compromise on the design and to this day, we haven't. It costs more money to do so, but we've designed multiple UIs and input modes for the game (one for mouse and keyboard and one for controller) so that there didn't have to be any concessions. Whichever platform you choose, we want you to have the best experience possible and will continue to strive to make that so.

I has also come to our attention that there were pictures from the home and wife of our leader in which one could get the impression that he is nothing but a nouveau-rich chav with a trophy wife and now has an expensive divorce at hand. These are fair concerns but rest assured they are not true. It was love and in fact he that is getting money from her. She also voiced over some of the characters of Numenera for free.

Also, the Infinitron was not exluded because it might ask inconvenient questions but because of the absolutely shamefurr dispray it put up in its disclosures. Like telling people outright that something new was going to be presented in August, when this was supposed to be an absolute secret.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You lost me. The reality in kickstarters is that we mostly get the bottom half of the pyramid.

Fact one: some developers involved in these kickstarters did amazing things in the olden days, for instance, Tin Cain.

Fact two: the kickstarters in which they were involved were bad games.

One way to make these two facts compatible is based on developers’ characters. Their games were bad because they changed for worse. They are burnout because they don’t have what it takes to devote their lives to this. That was to be expected because only a few have this commitment to excellence throughout their entire lives.

The guys who made Fallout and Torment didn't devote their lives to it. They were simply allowed to make games without giving a fuck about sales and marketing because Interplay was big enough. Those same guys working for Obsidian are in a very different boat in a very different sea. PoE wasn't their dream RPG, it was an attempt to survive by appealing to the BG crowd and avoid yet another round of layoffs. Those same guys working for Troika showed no signs of burning out and went out with a bang, creating two top 10 RPGs and the finest DnD combat.

So it always comes to money. Obsidian grew too big too fast to the point where they were spending a mil a month, which is a lot of money. You reach that point, you're dead because from now on you aren't a free "artist" but a slave chained to a galley, always looking for money to feed your army of employees rather doing what you love. Avellone the Escaped Slave seems much happier freelancing than being a co-founder of a large studio.

inXile went for rapid expansion too, opening up another studio. When I hear that I don't think "wow, another studio, how marvelous", I think "shit, they've just doubled their expenses and the extra money that has to come from somewhere will put extra pressure on them".

PS. The problem with Kickstarter is that it doesn't fund games, it only creates an illusion of funding, putting even more pressure on developers because now they have to find the extra millions and ... go back to the publishers, which seems to go against the idea of crowd-funding, yet it's the only way to stay in business. Like war, it never changes.

 

[Burning Bridges]

It is also often said that in a startup normally the 10 most productive people do almost all of the work, and it does not change much when you increase to 100 people.

 

[Fenix]

And also at some point I wanted to create thread about how I noticed that in last few years games I played, and to talk more precisely games I liked - all of them were creation of small teams, like Age of Decadence, Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, all roguelikes like ToME4, DCSS, Elona+, Caves of Qud.
Just think about that not in terms of genre, but how many people were involved in creation of games you like.
It is almost like auteur cinema except auteur gamedev makes more sense.
Also looks like games made by huge teams are unable to carry author's vision because they are creation of - how it is called? - community brain, hive mind.
And don't tell me that if War and Peace was wrote by hundreds writers it would be better then one Lev Tolstoy.

 

[Bubbles]

I noticed that in last few years games I played, and to talk more precisely games I liked - all of them were creation of small teams, like Age of Decadence, Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, all roguelikes like ToME4, DCSS, Elona+, Caves of Qud.

The amount of Kickstarted games on that list also seems to be fairly low.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And also at some point I wanted to create thread about how I noticed that in last few years games I played, and to talk more precisely games I liked - all of them were creation of small teams, like Age of Decadence, Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, all roguelikes like ToME4, DCSS, Elona+, Caves of Qud.

Small team = low financial pressure, higher degree of freedom.

Just think about that not in terms of genre, but how many people were involved in creation of games you like.

I made the same point in an old interview:

1994: It took 7 people to make X-COM: UFO Defense. Two guys who did both design and programming, 2 artists, 2 music/sound guys and a project manager.

1996: It took over 30 people to make a “more of the same” sequel. Now we have 4 assistant producers, 12 artists, 6 level designers, etc.

1997, XCOM: Apocalypse, a game that kinda sucked. Over 50 people team. 5 sound guys. 21 artists. An army of level designers. We even have a brand manager now. Good times are about to roll.

2001: X-COM: Enforcer or Say Goodbye to the Series. Great job managing the brand, assholes.

 

[duanth123]

Avellone the Escaped Slave

Finally, an answer to why he looks so well fed in that D:OS 2 interview.

 

[Bubbles]

I go to the jazz hall and pick up whoever is lying around. Now first off the whole point was that jazz today sucks. SUCKS.

[citation needed]

Good new compositions are rare, but there are still plenty of good interpretations.

 

[Athelas]

And also at some point I wanted to create thread about how I noticed that in last few years games I played, and to talk more precisely games I liked - all of them were creation of small teams, like Age of Decadence, Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, all roguelikes like ToME4, DCSS, Elona+, Caves of Qud.

Small team = low financial pressure, higher degree of freedom.

Just think about that not in terms of genre, but how many people were involved in creation of games you like.

I made the same point in an old interview:

1994: It took 7 people to make X-COM: UFO Defense. Two guys who did both design and programming, 2 artists, 2 music/sound guys and a project manager.

1996: It took over 30 people to make a “more of the same” sequel. Now we have 4 assistant producers, 12 artists, 6 level designers, etc.

1997, XCOM: Apocalypse, a game that kinda sucked. Over 50 people team. 5 sound guys. 21 artists. An army of level designers. We even have a brand manager now. Good times are about to roll.

2001: X-COM: Enforcer or Say Goodbye to the Series. Great job managing the brand, assholes.

Oh, come on. You don't think Terror of the Deep's larger team had anything to do with the fact that it was developed in a fraction of the time of the original (which IIRC the Gollop brothers developed in their spare time years before they even signed a contract)? And obviously the new underwater setting would require a lot of artists to produce new art assets fast. I was typing up this reply before I even checked Wikipedia, but it's all there:

MicroProse wanted Mythos Games to make a sequel to Enemy Unknown in six months. Julian Gollop felt that the only way to do so was to change the graphics and make minor changes to the gameplay. Eventually, MicroProse licensed Mythos' code and their internal UK studio created Terror from the Deep within a year, while Mythos Games began developing Apocalypse.[3] MicroProse artist Terry Greer recalled:

"A decision was made to use the original engine, reskin the graphics and create a whole new story. By keeping changes to the absolute minimum a sequel could be created in just a few months. Also, by not inventing any new game features or game technology it would make the scheduling one largely led purely by asset creation – which makes it whole lot easier when it comes to estimating task durations and scheduling."[4]

And Apocalypse is obviously much more ambitious than the prior X-COM games. Not that I disagree with your point entirely, but it's still a stretch to conclude that Enforcer was the logical consequence of the increase in the size of development teams.

 

[Infinitron]

They were simply allowed to make games without giving a fuck about sales and marketing because Interplay was big enough.

Or so Interplay thought!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh, come on. You don't think Terror of the Deep's larger team had anything to do with the fact that it was developed in a fraction of the time of the original (which IIRC the Gollop brothers developed in their spare time years before they even signed a contract)? And obviously the new underwater setting would require a lot of artists to produce new art assets fast. I was typing up this reply before I even checked Wikipedia, but it's all there:

Of course it took a fraction of the time. They had the engine and all mechanics (combat, base management, research, etc), which is 80% of work. It took us 10 years to make AoD. It wouldn't take us more than 3 years to make AoD 2 with the same team, less if we were to expand and hire 3-4 people.

They were simply allowed to make games without giving a fuck about sales and marketing because Interplay was big enough.

Or so Interplay thought!

Well, Interplay didn't go down because they invested into sleeper hit RPG projects like Fallout, that's for sure.

 

[Jaedar]

1997, XCOM: Apocalypse, a game that kinda sucked. Over 50 people team. 5 sound guys. 21 artists. An army of level designers. We even have a brand manager now. Good times are about to roll.

It's also a game that was kinda awesome and a huge evolution in most respects.

It completely baffles me how 21 artists could produce such shitty looking enemies though.

 

[Fenix]

The amount of Kickstarted games on that list also seems to be fairly low.

Yep, the only game that made good impreassion was SR Dragonfall, with it's Director's Cut.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Jaedar

The concept was great, the execution was poor.

During the creation of Apocalypse, Mythos Games created the game but MicroProse wanted to create the graphics.[1] Julian Gollop called the relationship "disastrous", and said of the game "It was a disaster area. Apocalypse was quite a sophisticated and ambitious game, but it was a big mistake from our point of view. In retrospect, we should have originally agreed to do a sequel in six months, and spent a year doing it, like they did! It would've been a lot better."

 

[Fenix]

It's also a game that was kinda awesome and a huge evolution in most respects.

Yeah, though it was my personal dissapoint at those time (because once I'm with my fellows hung around the neighborhood in 98-99 I think, and we discussed how next game will look like, so features like cyborgs and another dimension were predicted) because of lack of usual for X-Com art style, which is better then retrofuturism I belive, I have to admit that game had much more creativity and the ability to embody the ambitions in comparison with most of modern so called "AAA-developers". So low we have fallen.

 

[Roguey]

Or so Interplay thought!

Those times also ended after Fallout turned out to be a bigger success than they anticipated, with the marketing department telling Cain how to do his job and his deciding to quit rather than go to Fargo every time they told him to do something stupid.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I don't know why this is so surprising. A single programmer working has the maximal productivity rate per person lets say p=1. It then goes down in an exponential fashion, 2 people is very close to p=2, 3 people is still not far off from p=3, etc but with the 10th person you add it may only add 1/10 to the total result or so. Therefore up to 10 is a good size for a team and including more than 100 can even produce a negative effect. This is because of the increased overhead of coordinating work, which in a creative, highly mental activity we can simply never achieve because are brains are not interconnected. in factories etc coordination works much better because the process is always the same, so lets only think of tasks like programming, game design, story etc where the way ahead is not totally clear.

 

[Bubbles]

This is because of the increased overhead of coordinating work, which in a creative, highly mental activity we can simply never achieve because are brains are not interconnected.

Whalenought might be an exception

 

[Burning Bridges]

There are always exceptions, but they confirm the rule.

 

[Lurker King]

So it always comes to money. Obsidian grew too big too fast to the point where they were spending a mil a month, which is a lot of money. You reach that point, you're dead because from now on you aren't a free "artist" but a slave chained to a galley, always looking for money to feed your army of employees rather doing what you love. Avellone the Escaped Slave seems much happier freelancing than being a co-founder of a large studio.

inXile went for rapid expansion too, opening up another studio. When I hear that I don't think "wow, another studio, how marvelous", I think "shit, they've just doubled their expenses and the extra money that has to come from somewhere will put extra pressure on them".

The same thing is happening with Larian, that opened another studio in your country.

PS. The problem with Kickstarter is that it doesn't fund games, it only creates an illusion of funding, putting even more pressure on developers because now they have to find the extra millions and ... go back to the publishers, which seems to go against the idea of crowd-funding, yet it's the only way to stay in business. Like war, it never changes.

 

[Morality Games]

What's this about a Codex ban?

I've written that Fargo has a trophy wife and he got upset.

If this woman was wearing combat boots she would be a stellar example of Lara Croft cosplay.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

What's this about a Codex ban?

I've written that Fargo has a trophy wife and he got upset.

If this woman was wearing combat boots she would be a stellar example of Laura Croft cosplay.

No triangle boobs = won't bang.

 

[Morality Games]

Oh, right. The backpack I forgot the backpack. And the pistol holster.

I still don't see how anyone can look at that picture and not think Lara Croft though.