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Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera Alpha Systems Test Launched

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
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10,350
"doesn't have a place in 2015" is a vacuous phrase, and the only meaning it actually manages to convey is the size of the hole in the speaker's brain.

That said, sure, instadeath via dialogue isn't a great feature for a game like TTON, but one assumes it wont' happen very often.
 

Trip

Learned
Joined
May 24, 2015
Messages
127
"doesn't have a place in 2015" is a vacuous phrase, and the only meaning it actually manages to convey is the size of the hole in the speaker's brain.

It's pretty simple to parse, isn't it? It was part of gamebook design in the 80s, and it's not the 80s anymore, neither is this a gamebook, neither are the people playing the game teenagers that don't know anything else. So "doesn't have a place in 2015" has a simple and concrete meaning. It's not like I've said "throw text away, it doesn't have a place in 2015", right? I work with text for a living.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
It's pretty simple to parse, isn't it? It was part of gamebook design in the 80s, and it's not the 80s anymore, neither is this a gamebook, neither are the people playing the game teenagers that don't know anything else. So "doesn't have a place in 2015" has a simple and concrete meaning. It's not like I've said "throw text away, it doesn't have a place in 2015", right? I work with text for a living.
This is such a textbook case of
Joined:
May 24, 2015
that I don't even know what else to say.
 

Trip

Learned
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Messages
127
This is such a textbook case of
Joined:
May 24, 2015
that I don't even know what else to say.

You could tell me why that is. Oh, and by the way, apart from establishing my place in the "hierarchy" and the blasphemy of my including 2015 in a sentence, what's your opinion on text-based dream-like sequences with insta-death?
 

Jaedar

Arcane
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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
You could tell me why that is. Oh, and by the way, apart from establishing my place in the "hierarchy" and the blasphemy of my including 2015 in a sentence, what's your opinion on text-based dream-like sequences with insta-death?
I am a proponent of using things other than combat as boss battles in RPGs, including dialogues. Being able to die is then an important part of this. However, I cannot comment on this one in particular, given I have not played it.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
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It's pretty simple to parse, isn't it? It was part of gamebook design in the 80s, and it's not the 80s anymore, neither is this a gamebook, neither are the people playing the game teenagers that don't know anything else. So "doesn't have a place in 2015" has a simple and concrete meaning. It's not like I've said "throw text away, it doesn't have a place in 2015", right? I work with text for a living.
Speaking purely for myself, I think maybe the negative reaction is that many people would say that good design is timeless: the trends of 2015 or 1985 may have market significance, but what was good design is 1985 would be good design in 2015, and what is bad in 2015 was also bad in 1985, provided we aren't talking about technical limitations (e.g., the use of an accompanying paragraph book). The "doesn't have a place in 2015" also suggests a view that game design has generally improved, such that 2015 is an era in which the pinnacle of game design to date can be found. Since many people believe that the pinnacle of RPG (and adventure and perhaps also FPS, RTS, platformer, TBS, etc., etc.) design was the 1990s, "doesn't have a place in 2015" comes across as a "tell" that the poster has bad taste in game design.

I gather what you were really saying is that it's a gamebook design convention that was tolerated because it was an industry standard at a particular moment in time, but all the same a bad design convention, and now that the surrounding culture doesn't exist, there's no possible reason to retain or revive it. I don't think that's a crazy point or a stupid one, but I think the way you articulated it could hardly have been better designed to set off Codexian alarm bells.
 

Trip

Learned
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Messages
127
I am a proponent of using things other than combat as boss battles in RPGs, including dialogues

I am a proponent of the same. But if I die at the end of a text-based sequence, I prefer to be able to trace a plausible causal chain of decisions that lead me to that. Now, at the very beginning of a science-fantasy game with free-fall dream sequences where mysterious forces arrest your flight in the last second, and then you inhabit a mental fortress, releasing memories in the shape of glowing orbs, I wouldn't really expect choices like "dive faster" to actually lead to insta-death.

but I think the way you articulated it could hardly have been better designed to set off Codexian alarm bells.

Ha :) Good point. I didn't even realize it would be such a trigger to some (to whom I apologize). Yes, I meant it's not good design practice in general, and it's a particularly frequent occurrence in 80s gamebooks. But also, I did mean that choice-based game design has indeed improved since the 80s, and it's one of the fields where 2015 > 1985, definitely. I've been following the interactive fiction scene for almost 10 years now, including the recent resurgence of hyperlink/choice-based games, and I think there's a lot to be learned from some of the best people there (Jon Ingold of Inklewriter, Emily Short, Andrew Plotkin, Sam Kabo Ashwell, Victor Gijsberg, Dan Fabulich, the Failbetter Games team).

(P.S.: Primordia's one of the few narrative games I've actually finished (not counting replays), not quitting in exasperation, in the last 3 years. Great work.)
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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I've been following the interactive fiction scene for almost 10 years now, including the recent resurgence of hyperlink/choice-based games, and I think there's a lot to be learned from some of the best people there (Jon Ingold of Inklewriter, Emily Short, Andrew Plotkin, Sam Kabo Ashwell, Victor Gijsberg, Dan Fabulich, the Failbetter Games team).
I'm generally a fan of what these folks have done (though Sam Kabo Ashwell is a name I only recognize in passing, not from having played anything) -- I've been following the same people for a bit longer, I guess 13 years -- though I'm not sure I've played any choice-based game that I enjoyed more than the Lone Wolf series. Possibly that's because of nostalgia, but I think it's also that the nouveau CYOA scene uses a lot of small, accretive consequences rather than chunky ones, and the chunky ones seem to move me more.

That being said, I think there are a lot of reasons why you can't take design conventions from either gamebooks or modern choice-based games and import them directly into a cRPG like TTON. Gamebooks have much, much shorter playing time, so insta-death is relatively low consequence and, in fact, helps pad out the experience of winning by requiring multiple runs. As for modern choice-based games, they exist is isolation from other game elements that are integral to a typical cRPG (like character building, combat, commerce, party-building, leveling, etc.), and for that reason can do things that wouldn't work quite so well in a more robust game. Fallen London might be a little different, but after having played it for a month, I came to the conclusion that it's basically a lousy game wrapped in atmospheric text that succeeds by exploiting the same weaknesses in player psychology that other F2P games exploit. Since I consider the F2P "addictive, unfulfilling grind" business model a grotesque and perhaps even immoral one, I would be loath to import anything from FL for fear that it might carry its taint with it. (Which is to say: the aspects of FG that seem to "work" from a design standpoint might work only because they are part of an overall Skinner box architecture, and one might unwittingly start to commit himself to a Skinner box design by taking a design element that ultimate requires a Skinner box design to be effective. Gah, that is pretty incoherent, but I can't say it better.)

Also, I think it's telling (of something?) that I don't think that any IF has really reached the levels of old -- the new hyperlink stuff is easier to play and more digestible, but I don't think Emily Short has done anything as good as Metamorphoses/Galatea/City of Secrets/Savoir Faire, I don't think Plotkin has done anything as good as Spider & Web, I don't think any of the narrative-heavy ones are as good as Adam Cadre's Photopia, and Ingold may have peaked with All Roads. That may just be my nostalgia talking, though.
 

Trip

Learned
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May 24, 2015
Messages
127
Hah, should I be flattered, to have the Drog meme used on me? :)

Also, I think it's telling (of something?) that I don't think that any IF has really reached the levels of old -- the new hyperlink stuff is easier to play and more digestible, but I don't think Emily Short has done anything as good as Metamorphoses/Galatea/City of Secrets/Savoir Faire, I don't think Plotkin has done anything as good as Spider & Web, I don't think any of the narrative-heavy ones are as good as Adam Cadre's Photopia, and Ingold may have peaked with All Roads. That may just be my nostalgia talking, though.

Well, I think they've gone on to other stuff, maybe not as good yet, but with the potential to be even better than what they've done so far. You should check out Emily's Blood and Laurels (only available for MacOS, though), as well as the overall description of the Versu conversation system (and all her posts on conversation systems on her site; they're a masterclass unto themselves). Ingold's high point to me is Make it Good, but Inkle's stuff is exemplary choice-based design (his lectures are brilliant, too). Failbetter's Sunless Sea is a much better illustration of what that system's capable of than Fallen London, IMHO. (Also a few of the games at the Storynexus website, like the Thirst Frontier, Winterstrike and Samsara.) Choice of Games' stuff is a bit long-winded, but still one could learn a thing or two about choice-design from them.

But you're right in general that none of these games are graphical cRPGs and they have nowhere near the requirements to fulfill.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
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Yeah, I religiously read Emily Short's site. (As an aside, I think her combination of modesty and moderation -- both of which I find praiseworthy -- have robbed her of a spotlight she probably deserves, though I gather she's very happy with her level of fame and achievement.)
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
It's pretty simple to parse, isn't it? It was part of gamebook design in the 80s, and it's not the 80s anymore, neither is this a gamebook, neither are the people playing the game teenagers that don't know anything else. So "doesn't have a place in 2015" has a simple and concrete meaning. It's not like I've said "throw text away, it doesn't have a place in 2015", right? I work with text for a living.

Then say that. If something is no longer appropriate, there is always a reason. The reason is not "it is 2015". Instead of giving an actual reason, you opted to initially give a meaningless derivative shorthand, and so you should expect nothing other than scorn. Now, if you needed someone to spell out why it is such a stupid statement, MRY has done it.

I don't think instadeath is 'bad' even in long RPGs, especially one as wacky as Torment. I think it would be legitimate in, say, a major turning point long conversation (the Ravel equivalent); a 'text adventure' style sequence where you might be in disguise in a hostile place or negotiating your escape from a well trapped dungeon; or, yes, the very first dialogue. And of course make sure there's always an autosave right behind it.

That said, without having played the AST, yes, your argument on why this specific instadeath is hard to predict seems sound.
 

Adam Heine

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
61
Location
Chiang Mai, Thailand
The primary reason we included the insta-death option this early is (as someone already stated in this thread) to teach the player that not every choice is safe. There is a good reason why you survive the regular fall but don't survive diving faster (short version: you are mostly immortal; shattered bones won't kill you, but a splatter-death will), but Trip is right that the player would have no way of knowing that at this point, nor does the game go out of its way to warn you.

Insta-death choices later in Torment will have a proper warning, such that the player will have an idea that what he's about to do is not smart. If they don't, we have failed. We let this one slide because of this:

Gamebooks have much, much shorter playing time, so insta-death is relatively low consequence

This insta-death occurs in the first two minutes of play. If the player didn't see it coming, well, now he knows: insta-death is a thing, and it hardly cost him anything to learn it (and some people enjoy it).

That said, I do think the Game Over text could better explain why you died. I think I'll go revise that right now, in fact....
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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This insta-death occurs in the first two minutes of play. If the player didn't see it coming, well, now he knows: insta-death is a thing, and it hardly cost him anything to learn it (and some people enjoy it).
Yeah, I wasn't talking about this particular insta-death, which is not really gamebook-like in any case. (The classic gamebook insta-death is, "Which door, right or left?" and one of them kills you.)
 

Ulrox

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
363
Yeah, I wasn't talking about this particular insta-death, which is not really gamebook-like in any case. (The classic gamebook insta-death is, "Which door, right or left?" and one of them kills you.)

Doors truly are the main reasons for deaths everywhere! They are all evil and wish nothing but the death of humanity! If you see a door, be aware that it has probably claimed more lives than you will ever know!
 

ksaun

Arcane
Developer
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Jan 12, 2013
Messages
111
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Beyond Beyond the Beyond
Insta-death choices later in Torment will have a proper warning, such that the player will have an idea that what he's about to do is not smart. If they don't, we have failed.

(While the current instadeath is a bit abrupt, the player option that leads to it is this (after having previously chosen "Dive to the ground" and then reading about how your skin is burning and your vision blurring):

"Keep diving - the faster the better!")
 

ksaun

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Beyond Beyond the Beyond
That said, I do think the Game Over text could better explain why you died. I think I'll go revise that right now, in fact....

(The current placeholder text there was written by our witty lead programmer, Steve Dobos (who also wrote most of the loading tips, which fortunately haven't been released yet...).)
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Personally, I can't say I didn't see that death coming when I chose that option. I was, however, curious if the game would actually let me die or miraculously save me somehow. I was really glad when it did the former, but I am a Sierra adventure game fan.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
This insta-death occurs in the first two minutes of play. If the player didn't see it coming, well, now he knows: insta-death is a thing, and it hardly cost him anything to learn it (and some people enjoy it).

I think it's hilarious. Keep it as is. Skydiving without a parachute is not safe - news at 11.

Then again, after playing Age of Decadence, I've learned to stop worrying, and love the instadeath.
 

khavi

Learned
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BattleTech
Keep it. It does a good job of teaching that what you say can have direct and 'impactful' result on your character and the story. Excellent tutorial stage teaching tool for gamers that are conditioned to spacebar through dialogue without thinking about the consequences of their choices.
 

Luka-boy

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Sep 24, 2014
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Asspain
I loved that insta-death when I watched a video of the alpha. If future ones will have a warning then I definitely see no reason to remove this one.

Doors truly are the main reasons for deaths everywhere! They are all evil and wish nothing but the death of humanity! If you see a door, be aware that it has probably claimed more lives than you will ever know!
I learned that lesson as a little kid watching dozens of episodes of Takeshi's Castle.
 

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