Development Info Torment Kickstarter Update #58: Legacy & Meaning Trailer, Building the Necropolis

[VladimirK]

Doesn't seem like a good way to sell a console game. Should have focused more on gameplay itself and why it is fun.

Perhaps it's not fun?

 

[MRY]

The tone and content of the narration makes this video reminiscent of "ethics training" videos various employers have required me to watch over the years in order to appease their insurance providers. I'm pretty sure I've heard the same exact voice lay out a scenario where a friend wants my client's personal contact info in order to ask her out on a date, followed by a polite warning that divulging such information would be a serious violation of corporate policy. Most of the information provided also seems to fall under "anyone who doesn't know this already probably doesn't care to know".

Good God, I knew I recognized that voice. :cantunhear:

 

[Lurker King]

Doesn't seem like a good way to sell a console game. Should have focused more on gameplay itself and why it is fun.

There is no way to convince the console audience to buy this game. The game doesn’t have much combat, Tolkien tropes or anything that it is remotely familiar, and still has lots of text. Fargo is too convincing for his own good. The game will flop, the publisher will learn his lesson and abandon InXile. Fargo will come back begging for money on the next kickstarter and the Codex will make another fundraiser as if nothing had happened.

 

[MRY]

Tolkien tropes

Historically, console RPGs have been far less Tolkien-derived than PC RPGs, for what it's worth, and at least back when I played console RPGs (which was two decades ago) they were much text-heavier than PC RPGs. I have no idea what the market on them is like now.

To take one example from my childhood, this concept artwork for Final Fantasy III basically looks straight out of Numenera (or vice versa):

Spoiler

 

[Lurker King]

Historically, console RPGs have been far less Tolkien-derived than PC RPGs, for what it's worth, and at least back when I played console RPGs (which was two decades ago) they were much text-heavier than PC RPGs. I have no idea what the market on them is like now.

I have the impression that successful console RPGs in the past have been dominated by jRPGs. In this case, the question we should be asking is: "Does T:ToN have elements usually associated with jRPGs?" I don’t think so, especially if we consider that most of the recent heavy hitters are practically MMOs – see the huge difference between FF:VI or FF:VII and FF: XIV. T:ToN will not be grindy and doesn’t have a big world to explore with hundreds of small quests to do in a linear manner. It’s the opposite.

 

[MRY]

It used to be a running joke here that PS:T was a jRPG -- it's just that Western RPGs have converged so much on jRPGs (with newfound emphasis on defined protagonists and intra-party soap operas) that it's less noticeable now. It's been so long since I've played a jRPG, I have no idea where it stands relative to the current ones. Major divergences with past jRPGs would include the non-linearity, dialogue choices, and lack of grind combat.

I have no idea how it will do on consoles, I just wanted to defend console RPGs from the inaccurate charges of being Tolkien-based or text-light. Of course, they certainly have their flaws -- and, in fact, the goofy settings and endless linear dialogue may well be among them.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The distinction between PC and console RPGs is kind of pointless, nowadays almost everything ends up on PC. Not to mention AAA blockbusters have cannibalized and gamified a lot of traditional RPG elements, making the distinction even more blurry. Every other game has leveling, companions, perks, equipment, and a degree of non-linearity because they're all open world.

 

[Sentinel]

The distinction between PC and console RPGs is kind of pointless, nowadays almost everything ends up on PC. Not to mention AAA blockbusters have cannibalized and gamified a lot of traditional RPG elements, making the distinction even more blurry. Every other game has leveling, companions, perks, equipment, and a degree of non-linearity because they're all open world.

It's not a matter of being available on PC. It's a matter of "was it designed for PC?"

 

[Fairfax]

It used to be a running joke here that PS:T was a jRPG -- it's just that Western RPGs have converged so much on jRPGs (with newfound emphasis on defined protagonists and intra-party soap operas) that it's less noticeable now. It's been so long since I've played a jRPG, I have no idea where it stands relative to the current ones. Major divergences with past jRPGs would include the non-linearity, dialogue choices, and lack of grind combat.

I have no idea how it will do on consoles, I just wanted to defend console RPGs from the inaccurate charges of being Tolkien-based or text-light. Of course, they certainly have their flaws -- and, in fact, the goofy settings and endless linear dialogue may well be among them.

Unfortunately, some take the PS:T x JRPG comparison seriously and actually believe it's close to being one. IIRC someone wrote it into felipepe's CRPG book, for instance.

As for JRPGs now, they still lack the reactivity in general, but the best ones are a lot less linear and have some of the best combat around. The gameplay in Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls puts The Witcher and The Elder Scrolls to shame.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Unfortunately, some take the PS:T x JRPG comparison seriously and actually believe it's close to being one. IIRC someone wrote it into felipepe's CRPG book, for instance.

By "someone", you mean Vault Dweller implicitly referencing past statements by Chris Avellone? Planescape: Torment is an achievement for its artistic merits, not for its gameplay.

 

[Fairfax]

Unfortunately, some take the PS:T x JRPG comparison seriously and actually believe it's close to being one. IIRC someone wrote it into felipepe's CRPG book, for instance.

By "someone", you mean Vault Dweller implicitly referencing past statements by Chris Avellone? Planescape: Torment is an achievement for its artistic merits, not for its gameplay.

I didn't remember who wrote it.
Anyway, here's a direct quote:

Speaking of Final Fantasy, it can be argued that Planescape: Torment, um, homage to Japanese RPGs goes a bit deeper than the spell effects and that it is, in fact, a JRPG cleverly disguised as a WRPG to confuse players who are too cool to play console games.

He doesn't say he agrees, but I don't see how it "can be argued" that it's a "cleverly disguised JRPG". That's just stupid.

 

[Gruncheon]

It used to be a running joke here that PS:T was a jRPG -- it's just that Western RPGs have converged so much on jRPGs (with newfound emphasis on defined protagonists and intra-party soap operas) that it's less noticeable now. It's been so long since I've played a jRPG, I have no idea where it stands relative to the current ones. Major divergences with past jRPGs would include the non-linearity, dialogue choices, and lack of grind combat.

I have no idea how it will do on consoles, I just wanted to defend console RPGs from the inaccurate charges of being Tolkien-based or text-light. Of course, they certainly have their flaws -- and, in fact, the goofy settings and endless linear dialogue may well be among them.

If you stopped playing JRPGs around Final Fantasy 6/Chrono Trigger you're pretty much up to date with how far the genre's evolved

 

[HoboForEternity]

It used to be a running joke here that PS:T was a jRPG -- it's just that Western RPGs have converged so much on jRPGs (with newfound emphasis on defined protagonists and intra-party soap operas) that it's less noticeable now. It's been so long since I've played a jRPG, I have no idea where it stands relative to the current ones. Major divergences with past jRPGs would include the non-linearity, dialogue choices, and lack of grind combat.

I have no idea how it will do on consoles, I just wanted to defend console RPGs from the inaccurate charges of being Tolkien-based or text-light. Of course, they certainly have their flaws -- and, in fact, the goofy settings and endless linear dialogue may well be among them.

If you stopped playing JRPGs around Final Fantasy 6/Chrono Trigger you're pretty much up to date with how far the genre's evolved

Well at least after that you can see them devolving. It's been an entertaining descent into despair. There are exception, but in general, yea.

 

[Lurker King]

If you stopped playing JRPGs around Final Fantasy 6/Chrono Trigger you're pretty much up to date with how far the genre's evolved

Well at least after that you can see them devolving. It's been an entertaining descent into despair. There are exception, but in general, yea.

What is curious is that for many years jRPGs still had their own personality, however bad they were, but know they were successfully incorporated on popamole gaming. I look at the games that were released after FFVII and the only thing I see is “suit thinking” behind the design decisions. They are trying to make everything look like MMOs with big worlds, even in race games like “Need for speed”. It is grotesque. And some players who will never touch FO4 still think they are somewhat more sophisticated for enjoying this Japanese popamole garbage.

 

[duanth123]

I don't see how it "can be argued" that it's a "cleverly disguised JRPG"

The original concept art for the Nameless One.

 

[HoboForEternity]

If you stopped playing JRPGs around Final Fantasy 6/Chrono Trigger you're pretty much up to date with how far the genre's evolved

Well at least after that you can see them devolving. It's been an entertaining descent into despair. There are exception, but in general, yea.

What is curious is that for many years jRPGs still had their own personality, however bad they were, but know they were successfully incorporated on popamole gaming. I look at the games that were released after FFVII and the only thing I see is “suit thinking” behind the design decisions. They are trying to make everything look like MMOs with big worlds, even in race games like “Need for speed”. It is grotesque. And some players who will never touch FO4 still think they are somewhat more sophisticated for enjoying this Japanese popamole garbage.

After ffvii?

But ix is the best

 

[DeepOcean]

Depends of what people mean by JRPG, there are many JRPG out there that offer much more inclined gameplay and freedom for exploration than torment, not all JRPGs are linear, not all JRPGs have shit combat unless the only JRPG you ever played was Final Fantasy VII. To me, the best qualities of Torment, the writing and reactivity are nowhere to be found on JRPGs, japanese designers still believe that stories about teenagers discovering friendship is important is what sells, added to the fact that japanese are way more tolerant towards nonsense stories so you have teenager melodrama with mystical nonsense, Planescape setting is a pretty awesome setting with pretty good worldbuilding, it is disingenous to compare it to a typical JRPG setting.

If there are JRPGs with well crafted worlds, great reactrivity, writing that deals with more than teenagers wanting to get laid, great original characters, great writing in general, please name them because I want to play an RPG that doesn't have a completely retarded storyline what is really hard these days including both JRPG and western RPGs.

 

[HoboForEternity]

If there are JRPGs with well crafted worlds, great reactrivity, writing that deals with more than teenagers wanting to get laid, great original characters, great writing in general, please name them because I want to play an RPG that doesn't have a completely retarded storyline what is really hard these days including both JRPG and western RPGs.

trails series has great worldbuilding and decent reactivity (whether you choose to do a quest or not and how it turned out) but it's still filled with horny teenagers wwanting to get laid

 

[Lurker King]

Chrono Trigger is still the best jRPG ever made, but it also suffers from the same "this is a safe story for kids" syndrome.

 

[hpstg]

There is no way to convince the console audience to buy this game. The game doesn’t have much combat, Tolkien tropes or anything that it is remotely familiar, and still has lots of text. Fargo is too convincing for his own good. The game will flop, the publisher will learn his lesson and abandon InXile. Fargo will come back begging for money on the next kickstarter and the Codex will make another fundraiser as if nothing had happened.

A good console port of a game with a slower pace, unique sounding premise, special sounding scifi setting, and the legendary, to the current generation that can afford games, Torment name, will sell VERY well.

It will lower most of the barriers to entry perceived by the console crowd, and enable a ton of people who believe that playing the original one is too much of a hassle.

If the game is actually any good (it doesn't have to be a masterpiece), and is mentioned by outlets like RPS (you get the profile I mean), then it's a slam dunk.

 

[duanth123]

A good console port of a game with a slower pace, unique sounding premise, special sounding scifi setting, and the legendary, to the current generation that can afford games, Torment name, will sell VERY well.

It will lower most of the barriers to entry perceived by the console crowd, and enable a ton of people who believe that playing the original one is too much of a hassle.

If the game is actually any good (it doesn't have to be a masterpiece), and is mentioned by outlets like RPS (you get the profile I mean), then it's a slam dunk.

Brian?

 

[Bubbles]

and is mentioned by outlets like RPS (you get the profile I mean)

You mean sites that only cover PC games?

 

[Gruncheon]

Chrono Trigger is still the best jRPG ever made, but it also suffers from the same "this is a safe story for kids" syndrome.

In terms of classic JRPGs it never got better than Chrono Trigger. It is a difficult game to top though, they bottled magic with it. I can completely understand why Avellone would've taken inspiration from it. It does so many things right that western RPGs have never quite adopted properly.

The one that jumps out at me is memorable character design. Years later I could easily draw most of the CT characters from memory. One month after playing the T:ToN beta I'd have difficulty remembering what the companions looked like. Aligern is angry and Native American-ish but also looks exceptionally similar to the MC for some reason. Callistege is a dog-walker from San Fran that's into crystals and makes necklaces out of her own hair. Tybir is...Richard Pryor. I know Bioware is the great Satan here but this is an element they do really well and that other western devs could learn from.

 

[an Administrator]

If there are JRPGs with well crafted worlds, great reactrivity, writing that deals with more than teenagers wanting to get laid, great original characters, great writing in general, please name them because I want to play an RPG that doesn't have a completely retarded storyline what is really hard these days including both JRPG and western RPGs.

trails series has great worldbuilding and decent reactivity (whether you choose to do a quest or not and how it turned out) but it's still filled with horny teenagers wwanting to get laid

Just a little incest

 

[HoboForEternity]

If there are JRPGs with well crafted worlds, great reactrivity, writing that deals with more than teenagers wanting to get laid, great original characters, great writing in general, please name them because I want to play an RPG that doesn't have a completely retarded storyline what is really hard these days including both JRPG and western RPGs.

trails series has great worldbuilding and decent reactivity (whether you choose to do a quest or not and how it turned out) but it's still filled with horny teenagers wwanting to get laid

Just a little incest

Well, they arent really connected by blood sooooo i think it is a acceptable workaround to the incest fetish