Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #2: Stretch Goals

[Sacred_Path]

You mean like MOAR WRITERS??

 

[Diablo169]

I really wanted Ziets as an early goal, I hope to god hes in the next batch.

 

[l3loodAngel]

You mean like MOAR WRITERS??

I think better was the word you were looking for...

 

[Rake]

As long as it's ZIETS and possibly MITSODA I'm happy.

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/434065342252213648
Don't cry.

 

[Jaesun]

As long as it's ZIETS and possibly MITSODA I'm happy.

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/434065342252213648
Don't cry.

Damn that is a shame. If only he could help in the creative process of the world/lore/setting. But an area might be nice.

 

[skuphundaku]

Oh, you're talking about that Yudkowsky! I haven't read his Harry Potter stuff and I don't find the concept of it that interesting. However, his AI Box experiment ( http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox ) is off-the-charts-awesome.

It sure is a cool concept for a sci-fi novel but calling it an AI experiment or even an experiment at all is quite a stretch.

I call it an experiment because, in a manner, he actually ran the experiment 5 times already: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/AI-box_experiment

Well yes, colloquially speaking, we might call it an experiment, but in no way it is scientific.

It doesn't seem much worse (un-scientific) that most experiments run by, for example, psychologists, or other practitioners of various soft sciences.

I don't think psychologists try to impersonate nonexistent robot gods, or any highly dubious, purely speculatory agents for that matter, during their experiments. They also seek peer review rather than shroud their proceedings in mystery. It really ain't science, mate.

Totally agree with you on the peer reviewed front. But that's his choice to make. Maybe he considers his research still work in progress and not worthy of publishing results in peer reviewed publications, or whatever. Everything is not peer reviewed in the beginning.

As for the impersonating stuff and doing some rather awful things in order to run an experiment, I assume that you never heard of the Milgram experiment ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ).

 

[Koschey]

Some involvement is better than none.

 

[Rake]

At least he is involved fulltime in P:E. And i realy hope P:E narrative to rival P:T and T:ToN.
After P:E, i don't care if it's Obsidian or inXile but someone needs to hire Ziets permanently. He is MCA's spiritual successor

 

[skuphundaku]

As long as it's ZIETS and possibly MITSODA I'm happy.

I don't understand why Mitsoda is even considered? He can probably barely keep up with work on Dead State as it is. Starting work on a different project is unrealistic.

 

[Jashiin]

Kickstarter not doing anyone any favoures by failing to work again. With them taking that ridiculous 5% is any downtime to the campaign deductable from their share ?

 

[Sacred_Path]

Hah, got back at them (posted a shitty idea of my own)

 

[Diablo169]

As long as it's ZIETS and possibly MITSODA I'm happy.

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/434065342252213648
Don't cry.

Damn that is a shame. If only he could help in the creative process of the world/lore/setting. But an area might be nice.

This is really disappointing, in a perfect world George would be on this and Chris would be on Eternity. Oh well.

 

[bot]

Totally agree with you on the peer reviewed front. But that's his choice to make. Maybe he considers his research still work in progress and not worthy of publishing results in peer reviewed publications, or whatever. Everything is not peer reviewed in the beginning.

As for the impersonating stuff and doing some rather awful things in order to run an experiment, I assume that you never heard of the Milgram experiment ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ).

The made up, speculatory robot god is the dodgy part here. Yudkowsky assumes baseless axioms about nonexistent stuff and works from there - lots of them are implicit, produced by his little community, and not mentioned to the outsider, some are stated but still ridiculous nontheless. All he is evaluating is how a small, personally selected clique, reacts to his make believe MUD game while he appoints himself as an admin. This doesn't meet any standards of being an experiment. I really don't see how this silliness has anything in common with Milgram experiment.

 

[Rake]

I don't mind much. Colin impressed me with his ideas to make the game following the Torment formula without making a copy-paste. So he fills MCA shoes pretty good.
And i think it is a great chance for new writers to shine in an industry that until now doesn't reward creativity and writting skills. We all know Obsidian's storytelling talent. Let's give inXile the chance to prove their own. I have read novels by Nathan Long set in Warhammer Fantasy, and while not one to compete with G.R.R.M, he is leagues ahead from Gaider and his ilk.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I have read novels by Nathan Long set in Warhammer Fantasy, and while not one to compete with G.R.R.M, he is leagues ahead from Gaider and his ilk.

I can only guess that you are talking about Graham McNeil although I like Dan Abnett much more. If find it strange that nobody, yet, hired him for writing a game story as he is leagues ahead of others other than Dan.

 

[skuphundaku]

The made up, speculatory robot god is the dodgy part here. Yudkowsky assumes baseless axioms about nonexistent stuff and works from there - lots of them are implicit, produced by his little community, and not mentioned to the outsider, some are stated but still ridiculous nontheless.

Most test subjects aren't aware of the rules of the experiment they take part in, in psychological experiments either.

All he is evaluating is how a small, personally selected clique, reacts to his make believe MUD game while he appoints himself as an admin.

As you yourself said earlier, the outsider is not aware of the rules of the "AI", so there is no "personally selected clique" to speak of.

I really don't see how this silliness has anything in common with Milgram experiment.

The test subjects in the Milgram experiment weren't aware of what was actually happening either. If they knew, the experiment wouldn't have had any relevance.

 

[Rake]

I have read novels by Nathan Long set in Warhammer Fantasy, and while not one to compete with G.R.R.M, he is leagues ahead from Gaider and his ilk.

I can only guess that you are talking about Graham McNeil although I like Dan Abnett much more. If find it strange that nobody, yet, hired him for writing a game story as he is leagues ahead of others other than Dan.

No. Nathan Long has written the late books in the Gotrek and Felix series. Mindless hack and slash as a series for the most part, but his writting is not bad. Compared to most game writters he is shakespeare. And he sertainly is more creative than AAA designers.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I have read novels by Nathan Long set in Warhammer Fantasy, and while not one to compete with G.R.R.M, he is leagues ahead from Gaider and his ilk.

I can only guess that you are talking about Graham McNeil although I like Dan Abnett much more. If find it strange that nobody, yet, hired him for writing a game story as he is leagues ahead of others other than Dan.

No. Nathan Long has written the late books in the Gotrek and Felix series. Mindless hack and slash as a series for the most part, but his writting is not bad. Compared to most game writters he is shakespeare. And he sertainly is more creative than AAA designers.

I was talking about G.R.R.M abbreviation...

 

[Brother None]

I was talking about G.R.R.M abbreviation...

George RR Martin

 

[l3loodAngel]

I was talking about G.R.R.M abbreviation...

George RR Martin

Ah. OK

 

[bot]

The made up, speculatory robot god is the dodgy part here. Yudkowsky assumes baseless axioms about nonexistent stuff and works from there - lots of them are implicit, produced by his little community, and not mentioned to the outsider, some are stated but still ridiculous nontheless.

Most test subjects aren't aware of the rules of the experiment they take part in, in psychological experiments either.

All he is evaluating is how a small, personally selected clique, reacts to his make believe MUD game while he appoints himself as an admin.

As you yourself said earlier, the outsider is not aware of the rules of the "AI", so there is no "personally selected clique" to speak of.

By an outsider I didn't mean a participant of Yudkowsky's test but an independent observer reading on those subjects on the Internet. It's a failure of communication on my part. What's more, and this is obscure yet relevant piece of information, Yudkowsky doesn't choose just anyone for his "tests". All the people he interacted with were part of his extropian/transhumanist/singularitarian lesswrong circles, all of them aware of the lore (not to be confused with actual scientific discovery) the community of extropians/transhumanists/singularitarians came up with in the last two decades. They all operate on and think in mutually referencing and supporting, even though scientifically baseless (to say the least), memes. People "tested" by the "experiment" are neither John Doe down the road nor actual academics in the field of AI.

I really don't see how this silliness has anything in common with Milgram experiment.

The test subjects in the Milgram experiment weren't aware of what was actually happening either. If they knew, the experiment wouldn't have had any relevance.

Yes, that's one of the differences between the two cases. People Yudkowsky had selectively chosen for his ploy knew the purpose of the "test" beforehand. How couldn't they, the game couldn't proceed otherwise. The only thing "tested" here is their interaction, and the elephant in the room, the improbable, absurd, black-box-like, hocus pocus, unjustfied robot god chatting with someone is taken for granted.

But all this is beside the point. All that interacting with a dude impersonating a made up robot god in a make believe experiment can prove is how some colleague of said dude reacts to a dialogue with a dude impersonating made up robot god in a make believe experiment. You catching my drift? The stated purpose of the "experiment" is to test "real thing". No can do, it doesn't translate. It is silly.

 

[skuphundaku]

Yes, that's one of the differences between the two cases. People Yudkowsky had selectively chosen for his ploy knew the purpose of the "test" beforehand.

I wasn't aware of this aspect. Under these circumstances, it's all a massive circlejerk and no further debate is necessary.

 

[Brayko]

I think BN needs an "InXile" tag under his name...

 

[bot]

Yes, that's one of the differences between the two cases. People Yudkowsky had selectively chosen for his ploy knew the purpose of the "test" beforehand.

I wasn't aware of this aspect. Under these circumstances, it's all a massive circlejerk and no further debate is necessary.

You shouldn't feel bad about it, the likes of Yudkowsky often either omit or obscure vital information to push their agenda and avoid critical scrutiny. I enjoyed his autobiographical fanfic book, though.

 

[Sacred_Path]

get moar unemployed Germans in on TToN (not by me):

https://torment.uservoice.com/forum...510-get-guido-henkel-to-work-on-torment-again