Top modern jrpgs?

[Reinhardt]

Jrpgs don't punish you for your mistakes

Any other genre punishes you?

 

[Alkarl]

Jrpgs don't punish you for your mistakes because generally you can do whatever the hell you want in combat and still stomp everything. You can use the same tactics on the first and the last boss of the game and it's seems to be universal across most jrpgs: use most damaging skills until out of mana -> use mp restoring consumable and repeat. All that while designating one character as healing bitch.

Could this argument not apply to most western rpgs as well?

I can understand if you don't like particular art styles, aesthetics are extremely subjective. But I think a lot of your arguments against combat and mechanic design in jrpgs is just as applicable to almost any other style of rpg.

Are you a fan of roguelikes?

 

[Arthandas]

Any other genre punishes you?

Yes, most of them.
Any good platformer will be simply unbeatable without good reflexes/precise jumping etc. Notable examples: Super Meat Boy, Wings of Vi, all "classicvanias".
AI will stomp your ass in any good rts game if you're not effective enough. You can replay missions ad infinitum if you're not learning from your mistakes.
True fps games reward skillful dodging and accuracy and you won't beat them (unless playing on easy or normal) without both.
Did you ever tried good racing games without rubberbanding? Unless your lap time is optimal you're not going to win any race.

Seems like you never ever tried any other games outside your jrpg safe zone.

 

[Reinhardt]

"true fps" "good rts" What year you live in?

 

[Sigourn]

I would like to say I don't share Arthandas' views on difficulty myself. Final Fantasy Tactics is perfectly fine when it comes to difficulty: anything that requires me to do something else than spam Attack and choose obvious elemental weaknesses is fine by me.

 

[GrainWetski]

If i had to chose between characters with colored hairs, i'll better play game with cute schoolgirls than with ugly landwhales with side cuts.

Ugly landwhales are also JRPGs because he doesn't like them. I saw a JRPG in the city just 1 hour ago. Damn thing never should've been allowed to leave Japan.

 

[Ash]

See, the point is I don't consider classic Castlevanias to be masochistic. As far as platformers go, their difficulty is perfect. Every death is your own fault. You either misjudged a jump, tried to rush or just wasn't fast enough. There's nothing masochistic about it, you fuck up = you die.

Fuckups are inevitable, and when you run out completely you go right back to the very beginning of the game, potentially losing up to 2 hours if not more of play. Unless you truly are Neo from the Matrix and managed to beat all classicvanias on your first try?

For me personally, I can accept up to 1 hour of progress lost, and anything beyond that is just masochistic and doesn't really serve a purpose for any greater good, but maybe am just casual...

That said, I still adore classic platformers for what they were...SMB3, Earthworm Jim, Ghouls and Ghosts, Donkey Kong Country (a couple of these you could save your game at certain points anyways) and so many more. Better than modern shit at least.

 

[Arthandas]

Could this argument not apply to most western rpgs as well?

Yes but to a much lesser extent. Wrpgs often have difficulty levels which is a rarity in jrpgs. They are also inherently more difficult.

I can understand if you don't like particular art styles, aesthetics are extremely subjective. But I think a lot of your arguments against combat and mechanic design in jrpgs is just as applicable to almost any other style of rpg.

I never said I don't like the aesthetics. I like Toryama's style in DQ, I like FFIX or Tactics, unique style of ps2 Romancing Saga...
Also, jrpgs have much more original environments and monsters. Entering wrpg forest and jrpg forest are two completely different experiences That's why I still can't force myself to abandon them once and for all. You will never get this kind of experience from wrpg.

Are you a fan of roguelikes?

Yes, a big one.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If all this is not enough, I can trivialize any boss fight by summoning a sunbro. Also you can snipe most enemies with spells ranged weapons before they can even retaliate.

See, this is the kind of shit I'm talking about. If you're willing to do things slowly and carefully cheese the shit out of everything, nothing is going to be challenging in any way except being tedious as fuck. Hey guys, I can beat all the most difficult RTS maps ever, all I had to do was lower the speed to the lowest settings and pause a lot. LOL where is the challenge amirite?

Your description of jrpgs only applies when you're fighting enough battles to be overlevelled for everything, probably because you checked every square inch of the world for loot before proceeding. Which is a fine way to play if that's what you enjoy, but if you don't enjoy crushing everything with a band of geared out murderhobos, why are you spending so much time and effort making one?

Fuckups are inevitable, and when you run out completely you go right back to the very beginning of the game. Unless you truly are Neo from the Matrix and managed to beat classicvanias on your first try?

A common misconception, original Castlevania never made you start further back than the stage you were in. Which, honestly, is less of a time sink than a lot of dungeon crawlers before they started putting save points right before the boss to appease the scrubs.

 

[Ash]

Of the originals I've played Castlevania: Bloodlines (Mega Drive) and SCIV (SNES). don't remember exactly what applied to SCIV, but I'm almost certain Bloodlines it was game over sonny jim.

Meh, don't recall 100%

 

[Damned Registrations]

SCIV definitely had a password system. Never played bloodlines, but I can't imagine it didn't have one too. Same for punch-out or megaman games. Even if it kicked you to the title screen, you were literally two buttons away from auto-entering the password to the stage you failed.

The old Sonic games were like that though. Died in Metroplis zone? FUCK YOU PAL.

 

[Arthandas]

See, this is the kind of shit I'm talking about. If you're willing to do things slowly and carefully cheese the shit out of everything, nothing is going to be challenging in any way except being tedious as fuck. Hey guys, I can beat all the most difficult RTS maps ever, all I had to do was lower the speed to the lowest settings and pause a lot. LOL where is the challenge amirite?

When you lower the speed and pause a lot you're intentionally cheesing and you can blame only yourself if the game is too easy. When you use bows/spells/shields/phantoms in Dark Souls, you have no idea you're cheesing because those are normal game mechanics. That's why I stopped using them for my second and further playthroughs.
My first run was with typical heaviest armor+biggest shield pala. My friend at the same time was playing a dedicated archer. We played two completely different games...

Your description of jrpgs only applies when you're fighting enough battles to be overlevelled for everything, probably because you checked every square inch of the world for loot before proceeding. Which is a fine way to play if that's what you enjoy, but if you don't enjoy crushing everything with a band of geared out murderhobos, why are you spending so much time and effort making one?

That's true, my ocd prohibits me from leaving any dungeon branch unexplored but how's having to kill million monsters on the way my fault? See, that's the inherent problem of jrpgs because they have 99 levels and random encounters. In typical wrpg, you'll only get a few additional fights (if any) by exploring every nook and cranny.

 

[IPFreely]

Go play the Suikoden games and thank me later.

Though I do agree with the people saying playing the Shin Megami Tensei games.

 

[Alkarl]

That's true, my ocd prohibits me from leaving any dungeon branch unexplored but how's having to kill million monsters on the way my fault?

I completely understand this. I had to take a break from DQ8. I recently got the boat, and now the world is my oyster, which is oddly enough the most depressing point of some games. The 3ds version kinda allows you to break the game, you see, I spent far far too much time grinding metal babbles, so very little combat wise is really restricting me. While it's a crap shoot whether one sticks around long enough to kill, you can just keep rotating the camera to make one spawn.

Of course, I did it to myself, and the difficulty will catch up with me again once I get stuck back in. Clipped over to Devil Survivor 1 for the time being.

 

[CryptRat]

SCIV definitely had a password system. Never played bloodlines, but I can't imagine it didn't have one too. Same for punch-out or megaman games. Even if it kicked you to the title screen, you were literally two buttons away from auto-entering the password to the stage you failed.

The old Sonic games were like that though. Died in Metroplis zone? FUCK YOU PAL.

I still think many NES/amiga era games have you restart after some deaths, or at least whenever you quit the game which I include because it's not pejorative as far as I'm concerned. Eventually beating one more level in Super Meat Boy is fun, but it's also satisfying mastering from start to finish, going further each time you restart, and finally beat a short game that needs to be finished in one session.

 

[Hobo Elf]

That's how I play Castlevania and Megaman/X. One death ironman from start to finish. To this day I still haven't finished Vampire's Kiss due to how hilariously bullshitty the Dracula fight is in that game.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Go play the Suikoden games and thank me later.

For the love of god do NOT play the Suikoden games if you have OCD tendencies.

 

[Arthandas]

I finished II as a kid, all I remember is that there were 108 party members and a dice mini game I know literally nothing about other titles in the series.

Me after checking some Suikoden II screens on the internets:

Spoiler

 

[Ash]

I've been playing Suikoden 2 on and off on my phone during commutes etc. It has its merits and charm...except in gameplay. You were bashing Final Fantasy but they have like 10x the gameplay depth and engagement of it. Having been exploring the JRPG turn-based subgenre deeper lately, it seems Final Fantasy surprisingly starting with 5 does that in general for the majority of turn-based blobber-ish JRPGs. chrono trigger, Lufia 2, suikoden, Breath of fire and more...so much boring and overly simple gameplay (exception for Lufia 2's puzzles).
Probably gonna delete suikoden 2 anyhow. Yawn. Still way better than most modern shit of course, but it just ain't particularly engaging in its interactivity at all.

Go play the Suikoden games and thank me later.

I hope you're not implying they're difficult. Suikoden 2 truly is piss easy and dead simple, at least in the 15 or so hours I've put into it so far.

SCIV definitely had a password system. Never played bloodlines, but I can't imagine it didn't have one too. Same for punch-out or megaman games. Even if it kicked you to the title screen, you were literally two buttons away from auto-entering the password to the stage you failed.

The old Sonic games were like that though. Died in Metroplis zone? FUCK YOU PAL.

Most platformers were like that. T'was rare to see saving or password systems for platformers back in the 80s and early 90s.

 

[Deflowerer]

Unfortunately yes, Suikoden games are way too easy, despite being fantastic in every other way.

IIRC there's a fan-made difficulty patch for the first game though.

 

[Trash Player]

I've been playing Suikoden 2 on and off on my phone during commutes etc. It has its merits and charm...except in gameplay. You were bashing Final Fantasy but they have like 10x the gameplay depth and engagement of it. Having been exploring the JRPG turn-based subgenre deeper lately, it seems Final Fantasy surprisingly starting with 5 does that in general for the majority of turn-based blobber-ish JRPGs. chrono trigger, Lufia 2, suikoden, Breath of fire and more...so much boring and overly simple gameplay (exception for Lufia 2's puzzles).
Probably gonna delete suikoden 2 anyhow. Yawn. Still way better than most modern shit of course, but it just ain't particularly engaging in its interactivity at all.

Go play the Suikoden games and thank me later.

I hope you're not implying they're difficult. Suikoden 2 truly is piss easy and dead simple, at least in the 15 or so hours I've put into it so far.

SCIV definitely had a password system. Never played bloodlines, but I can't imagine it didn't have one too. Same for punch-out or megaman games. Even if it kicked you to the title screen, you were literally two buttons away from auto-entering the password to the stage you failed.

The old Sonic games were like that though. Died in Metroplis zone? FUCK YOU PAL.

Most platformers were like that. T'was rare to see saving or password systems for platformers back in the 80s and early 90s.

DR summed it up. Suikoden is more of a perfectionist nightmare/wetdream. I suspect it is why I don't mind save and load that much in later games, like AOD.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Have I mentioned before that I love Devil Survivor? The game has explicit anti-level-grinding measures, so it won't help you that much to spam free battles, and there's a lot of fun to be had with just playing around with your party's capabilities and making your own experiments with fusing demons. Also the game is challenging enough where you at least have to plan ahead before encounters; even the most broken skills (Drain and Holy Dance, arguably Shield All) are limited to one "human" character per party, and your demons won't be exclusively stocked with them without some really good planning ahead. Even when loaded with Almighty skills the game provides enough challenge, and the NG+ is a bitch to complete, particularly its ultimate final boss.

Ofc, Devil Survivor wouldn't turn anime haters into anime lovers; game features a sorta weird artstyle even for a Japanese game (most of my friends who watch anime find it sorta offputting), the protagonist wears his headphones in such a fashion that they look like cat ears, and even your best bro in the entire universe, Atsuro, wears something like a yoghurt cup yarmulke. And, of course, you are all high school kids given the powers to summon demons. That said, I liked the storyline, it has interesting ideas at least and plays out fine.

 

[Alkarl]

Have I mentioned before that I love Devil Survivor? The game has explicit anti-level-grinding measures, so it won't help you that much to spam free battles, and there's a lot of fun to be had with just playing around with your party's capabilities and making your own experiments with fusing demons. Also the game is challenging enough where you at least have to plan ahead before encounters; even the most broken skills (Drain and Holy Dance, arguably Shield All) are limited to one "human" character per party, and your demons won't be exclusively stocked with them without some really good planning ahead. Even when loaded with Almighty skills the game provides enough challenge, and the NG+ is a bitch to complete, particularly its ultimate final boss.

Ofc, Devil Survivor wouldn't turn anime haters into anime lovers; game features a sorta weird artstyle even for a Japanese game (most of my friends who watch anime find it sorta offputting), the protagonist wears his headphones in such a fashion that they look like cat ears, and even your best bro in the entire universe, Atsuro, wears something like a yoghurt cup yarmulke. And, of course, you are all high school kids given the powers to summon demons. That said, I liked the storyline, it has interesting ideas at least and plays out fine.

I just picked this up recently, original DS version. I like several of the ideas in it like the Death Clock. And from what I hear, it has multiple routes/endings depending on what you do and the people you run into. Art style is.. like you say, and most of the game is menus, but the game is a lot of fun so far. I would also recommend it, if for no other reason than to see if someone might enjoy it.

 

[Sigourn]

I started playing Tactics Ogre before realizing I should really finish my Icewind Dale playthrough (expansions left to go). Anyhow, what a fantastic game. 3D truly killed videogames, between Icewind Dale's fantastic looking backgrounds and TO's beautiful artstyle I don't know what made developers jump ship. Only 3D worth doing is non-photorealistic 3D. Kind of like Gothic II.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Decent 3D can be decent, especially given equal budgets and modern tech. 3D was definitely adopted WAY too early though, early 3D games were terrible compared to 2D you could have had for the same price.

Play the original Ogre Battle if you haven't. Best artwork and characters in the entire franchise, by far. Shame the N64 version of that gameplay was done so poorly, basically killed any possibility of it getting a worthy sequel.