Tomb Raider 2013

[janior]

console gamers are superior breed to pc peasants

No, retard.
The problem is not the hardware, it's the corporations and the retarded consoomers, consoletards as well as PCtards.
Example for PCtards are people who refuse to use any input device other than keyboard and mouse, even for racing or flyin sims, shmups, or games which profit from a game pad.
And it was PCtards who accepted Steam, way before digital distribution, i.e. paying to rent, was a thing on consoles.

uh oh
TR2013 is a fantastic game and a reboot that the series badly needed

 

[janior]

on that note
RISE is the best of the new trilogy

 

[gabel]

on that note
RISE is the best of the new trilogy

It is.
But it's still an awful Tomb Raider.

 

[Ezekiel]

I remember so many people praising the automatic crouch and cover system. It just makes the action slower. You can't run from wall to wall, but instead are scampering low and rolling like a retarded girl as you tap the dodge button even when the walls are higher. The best third person cover system is the one where you swap shoulders as you move from wall to wall without clinging to it but rather simply stay behind it and where you press crouch when you need to. Meaning there is no cover system at all and your protection depends on where you are relative to the bullets and wall. (Also, on movement/speed.) But I have watched enough people play third person shooters to know that they are almost all inept at swapping shoulders. You can say that it's best to just place the player character in the center and pull the camera farther back, but I disagree that that is the solution. Even Max Payne 1 and 2 have moments where the player character blocks your view as you come around a corner the wrong way. The cam in modern Tomb Raider IS too close, though. When I look at Returnal (Have not played it.) I see that the combat areas are wide open. There it seems fine not to have shoulder swapping.

Everybody would be outraged if Mario in his newest full scale 3D platformer had magnetic jumps that steered the player towards every ledge. I don't know why this is (rightfully) rejected in platformers but embraced in a game like Tomb Raider or Uncharted. It's not fun.

 

[janior]

on that note
RISE is the best of the new trilogy

It is.
But it's still an awful Tomb Raider.

yeah it is just a an uncharted/last of us clone, turn your brain off and have some fun and forget it's a tomb raider

 

[JarlFrank]

No, the oldest Tomb Raider games weren't it. But I respect them much more (even though I only finished Tomb Raider II so far).

Play TR1 (just straight up launch the Steam version as-is, it runs in DOS Box, don't use fan patches because they increase view distance which is detrimental to the atmosphere).

You have to play the first game to really understand Tomb Raider. It's unique, no other game in the series comes close (TR4 comes closest). Exploration in long forgotten ruins, completely alone... no other game captures the sense of isolation quite as well.

 

[gabel]

I'd suggest emulating the Playsation versions.
Uhhhhhhh, console faggotry, right? Lol.

 

[janior]

don't listen to those grey haired sweatlords
play anniversary, it's an improved version of the original kinda like REmake

don't forget to check for sealing traps!

 

[Ezekiel]

No, the oldest Tomb Raider games weren't it. But I respect them much more (even though I only finished Tomb Raider II so far).

Play TR1 (just straight up launch the Steam version as-is, it runs in DOS Box, don't use fan patches because they increase view distance which is detrimental to the atmosphere).

You have to play the first game to really understand Tomb Raider. It's unique, no other game in the series comes close (TR4 comes closest). Exploration in long forgotten ruins, completely alone... no other game captures the sense of isolation quite as well.

On the subject of isolation, if they ever made a modern, linear Tomb Raider game with proper platforming (including platform puzzles), the classic look for Lara and an art style that is slightly toon as in almost the original concept art of her (because realistic graphics would not jibe with how crazy the expansive ancient environments would be), would you be okay with fun, mobile gunplay if the enemies were almost all monsters, stone protectors of the tombs and the couple of wild animals that used to be? Or would that break the sense of isolation you want, just as armed mercenaries would?

 

[Ezekiel]

I already played Anniversary, Janior. I beat it in 2014 and played it once more. My save file is at 97 percent. I can see why many users her think it's decline. I still liked it.

 

[JarlFrank]

play anniversary, it's an improved version of the original kinda like REmake

Literally every single element of Anniversary (ok not every, some of the new puzzles are good) is worse than the original.

Everything about Anniversary was a downgrade and it doesn't even remotely capture the atmosphere of original TR.
Worse story, worse platforming, it has QTEs, too many cutscenes, overly contrived boss fights...

I already went into it in more detail here, no need to repeat myself: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...r-its-remake-and-the-loss-of-subtlety.145659/

Anniversary is a decent game, but an absolutely abysmal remake. Completely fails at capturing what made TR1 great.

If you want to play TR1 but don't want to fiddle with DOS Box etc, wait for the upcoming Remaster instead, at least that stays 100% true to the original.

 

[JarlFrank]

No, the oldest Tomb Raider games weren't it. But I respect them much more (even though I only finished Tomb Raider II so far).

Play TR1 (just straight up launch the Steam version as-is, it runs in DOS Box, don't use fan patches because they increase view distance which is detrimental to the atmosphere).

You have to play the first game to really understand Tomb Raider. It's unique, no other game in the series comes close (TR4 comes closest). Exploration in long forgotten ruins, completely alone... no other game captures the sense of isolation quite as well.

On the subject of isolation, if they ever made a modern, linear Tomb Raider game with proper platforming (including platform puzzles), the classic look for Lara and an art style that is slightly toon as in almost the original concept art of her (because realistic graphics would not jive with how crazy the expansive ancient environments would be), would you be okay with fun, mobile gunplay if the enemies were almost all monsters, stone protectors of the tombs and the couple of wild animals that used to be? Or would that break the sense of isolation you want, just as armed mercenaries would?

Better gunplay would be fine, as long as combat encounters weren't made the focus.

TR1 doesn't have a lot of combat. There's a handful of animals, later on the Atlantean creatures, but apart from Atlantis itself none of the levels have a lot of combat. It's really a problem of quantity.

I think most of Underworld got the combat quantity right.

 

[janior]

TR1 has much better platforming I admit, there is no random shit that just happens, everything is precise and if you fuck up it's your fault, in anniversary/legend/underworld it's pretty random sometimes outside of player's hands.

 

[Ezekiel]

No, the oldest Tomb Raider games weren't it. But I respect them much more (even though I only finished Tomb Raider II so far).

Play TR1 (just straight up launch the Steam version as-is, it runs in DOS Box, don't use fan patches because they increase view distance which is detrimental to the atmosphere).

You have to play the first game to really understand Tomb Raider. It's unique, no other game in the series comes close (TR4 comes closest). Exploration in long forgotten ruins, completely alone... no other game captures the sense of isolation quite as well.

On the subject of isolation, if they ever made a modern, linear Tomb Raider game with proper platforming (including platform puzzles), the classic look for Lara and an art style that is slightly toon as in almost the original concept art of her (because realistic graphics would not jive with how crazy the expansive ancient environments would be), would you be okay with fun, mobile gunplay if the enemies were almost all monsters, stone protectors of the tombs and the couple of wild animals that used to be? Or would that break the sense of isolation you want, just as armed mercenaries would?

Better gunplay would be fine, as long as combat encounters weren't made the focus.

TR1 doesn't have a lot of combat. There's a handful of animals, later on the Atlantean creatures, but apart from Atlantis itself none of the levels have a lot of combat. It's really a problem of quantity.

I think most of Underworld got the combat quantity right.

Yes. If those encounters are not enough for the lovely combat Tomb Raider COULD have, I would say just put some combat chambers and arenas in the menu, separated from the campaign, with high scores. With an option to play those maps against other players. No upgrades, no name tags above the players making them easier to see, and better weapons picked up in the environment and lost upon death. I know the ratings I'm gonna get for this. Bite me. Some of the most fun I had in multiplayer was the tacked on kind that is now dead, going back to the Nintendo 64.

 

[Neuromancer]

play anniversary, it's an improved version of the original kinda like REmake

Literally every single element of Anniversary (ok not every, some of the new puzzles are good) is worse than the original.

I really liked St. Francis' Folly in the remake and I think it is an improvement over the old game since it expands the sub areas for the different gods, which in the original were pretty small.

That is unfortunately the only level, that is really better IMO.
And Atlantis in the end is a joke. Not only did they cut out more than 3/4 of the area, for some reasons they completely changed the art style and ruined the creepy atmosphere.

 

[gabel]

play anniversary, it's an improved version of the original kinda like REmake

Literally every single element of Anniversary (ok not every, some of the new puzzles are good) is worse than the original.

Everything about Anniversary was a downgrade and it doesn't even remotely capture the atmosphere of original TR.
Worse story, worse platforming, it has QTEs, too many cutscenes, overly contrived boss fights...

I already went into it in more detail here, no need to repeat myself: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...r-its-remake-and-the-loss-of-subtlety.145659/

Anniversary is a decent game, but an absolutely abysmal remake. Completely fails at capturing what made TR1 great.

If you want to play TR1 but don't want to fiddle with DOS Box etc, wait for the upcoming Remaster instead, at least that stays 100% true to the original.

Or simply play the Playstation version via emulator.

 

[janior]

yeah in hindsight I know why my playthrough of TR1 was such a cakewalk. You get unlimited saves which kinda makes this game easy as stakes for fucking up a jump are zero. I'm not sure how well spaced the savepoints are in console versions but it has to be 100% better way to play it imo.

 

[Ash]

play anniversary... it's better than the original kinda like REmake

Yeah, much like REmake, REtards think it is better than the original when it is not. 99% of remakes are decline.

yeah in hindsight I know why my playthrough of TR1 was such a cakewalk. You get unlimited saves which kinda makes this game easy as stakes for fucking up a jump are zero. I'm not sure how well spaced the savepoints are in console versions but it has to be 100% better way to play it imo.

Now I like you regardless of anything else you've said. The original console TR features approximately 2-3 crystals per level, in fixed locations that you decide when to activate (ideally when first encountered, but risky players may decide to save them for later), and disappear after one use. Old school hardcore as the true game design gods would dictate, not puss boi shit
Sadly, TR2 brought save anywhere infinite times decline even in the console version. TR3 was a middle ground after seeing the error of their ways, allowing you to save anywhere but with limited crystals. Not ideal for many reasons, especially in combination with TR3's increased level of individual challenge difficulty, but better than no restrictions. OG TR did it best. It is perhaps for this reason alone I rate it higher than its first few sequels (2 and 3), even despite all their many good innovations (e.g to movement, vehicle sections that are actually good, expanded arsenal and flares).

 

[JarlFrank]

I'm a dirty savescummer but still like TR1 best - while the sequels added some things, I'm not sure if I'd consider them improvements, or necessary.

The best new feature is TR4's ability to shimmy around edges, which fits seamlessly into the existing moveset and allows for additional complexity in climbing puzzle design.
TR2's introduction of ladders was cool too, but honestly they should've made climbing go a little faster. Still, cool new traversal mechanic.

But I'm not so sure about TR4's crouch/crawl, rope swinging (mostly due to extremely wonky grab detection, these ropes alone make you glad the game has no save limitations), TR2's introduction of vehicles (they work well enough, but... eh), etc.

TR1 is the most tightly designed of the series, and the atmosphere and theme are unmatched.

 

[flyingjohn]

You have to play the first game to really understand Tomb Raider. It's unique, no other game in the series comes close (TR4 comes closest). Exploration in long forgotten ruins, completely alone... no other game captures the sense of isolation quite as well.

TR1 was Toby Gard's (character designer and he had plenty of influence on how the levels were designed) pet project where he had a lot of major influence. He left after TR1 while the team begged him to stay. Majority of said team quit after TR2 for the same reasons.
TR1 is the original vision. Everything else is just cashing in on the original sucess.

 

[Neuromancer]

I think Toby Gard's influence on TR1 is a little bit overrated.

Yes, he made the initial concept and was a major contributor to the game, but still he was only part of the team and not the only creator, as he is represented nowadays.
Tomb Raider 1 was a team effort, where everybody contributed to the success of the game.


And I don't remember, that he made anything of notice after he left Core Design.

Oh yes, he was a consultant on the TR 2013 reboot - the game, that is universally "loved" by everyone here.
(I must admit, i personally like it. But of course it is a very different game and I can understand, why some people who liked the classic would disagree.)


As you said, the rest of the team stayed for TR2 - and it shows.
It is a very good game with lot of nice additions, that JarlFrank already mentioned - and on par with the first one IMHO.

 

[JarlFrank]

As you said, the rest of the team stayed for TR2 - and it shows.
It is a very good game with lot of nice additions, that JarlFrank already mentioned - and on par with the first one IMHO.

It is a good game with some great levels, but the tonal shift from TR1 and higher focus on combat are very noticeable.

I would blame that more on the publisher pushing for a sequel with more action than on conscious decisions by the dev team though.

 

[Neuromancer]

I agree.

Especially the high human body count was jarring compared to the first game.
In the first game, you only had a handful of bad guys - each with a name and each of the fights were kind of a mini boss fight (Natla of course a real boss fight).

In the second game, Lara basically becomes a serial killer.
I didn't count, but the body count must be over a hundred or at least close.

The next games of course continued that trend.

 

[Ash]

I'm a dirty savescummer but still like TR1 best - while the sequels added some things, I'm not sure if I'd consider them improvements, or necessary.

The best new feature is TR4's ability to shimmy around edges, which fits seamlessly into the existing moveset and allows for additional complexity in climbing puzzle design.
TR2's introduction of ladders was cool too, but honestly they should've made climbing go a little faster. Still, cool new traversal mechanic.

But I'm not so sure about TR4's crouch/crawl, rope swinging (mostly due to extremely wonky grab detection, these ropes alone make you glad the game has no save limitations), TR2's introduction of vehicles (they work well enough, but... eh), etc.

TR1 is the most tightly designed of the series, and the atmosphere and theme are unmatched.

Ladder climbing, sprinting + sprint roll, rope swinging, crawling, air flip, monkey bars, and zip lines are all cool and frequently added depth to puzzles and/or combat. Well...ladder climbing indeed should have been faster, and monkey bars too for that matter.

TR2 is perhaps the only action game in existence that I consider to have truly good vehicle sections. It defined my standards for all the shit games to come. All the many on rails vehicle garbage popamole in shooters of the 2000s in particular are laughable by comparison. TR2's factored into combat, exploration, secrets, there's always cool and tricky jumps, navigating with them is a genuine challenge, and are often setup as a giant puzzle spanning the entire level.

TR2 may have went for a slightly more realistic or modern tone/locations, however it still remained heavily abstract and significantly gameplay-oriented unlike 99% of realismfag decline games, and furthermore had a beautiful tone all of its own. From the feces-cultured canal of Venice, to the horror-themed depths of the Maria Doria, to the epic set of Tibet levels with snowmobiles monastery and ice palace, to the brutal ancient temple of Xian. It's just as larger-than-life, adventure & mystery-filled, and epic as the original.

It still has its tombs too.

The Maria Doria is a Tomb on the bottom of the Ocean. Temple of Xian, Ice Palace, Floating Islands and more are Tombs or otherwise some form of equivalent.
All other locations, like the Oil Rig, spooky Opera House, Great Wall etc simply retain the OG series spectacular level design, atmosphere and intrigue, despite being more modern locations. It's one hell of an accomplishment in my eyes. Very smart choice of exotic locations, and interpretations of said locations.
I have similar praise for TR3 too, just have slightly less respect for it because of the inventory blunder.
TR1 is equally legendary; I don't think I hold it in any higher regard with respect to these elements. Perhaps even slightly less. Perhaps too many closed in tombs and lack of thematic and stylistic variety (though there is still plenty enough).

About the only common criticism I see that I agree with regarding TR2 is one too many shitscan human enemies. Some focus is fine there, but there's one level too many. Maria doria levels should have had crazy sea creatures like deep sea octopi and crustaceans infesting the ship instead. Perhaps get fictional with it, like the cats, mummies and atlanteans towards the end of TR1.
The real problems with TR2 are the three dragons secret system and the lame saving.

And yeah I too question Toby Gard's significance regarding the games overall design and vision, given his involvement with Anniversary in addition to that recent game he put out, which seemed like poop.

Hmm, credit where credit is due it seems. See below. I guess come Anniversary he had lost his way and was riding the same realism/story/graphics/sellout/decline train every dev was on.

The initial team was Gard and Paul Douglas who worked on design and pre-production for six months, before the team expanded to six people including programmers Gavin Rummery and Jason Gosling, and level designers/artists Neal Boyd and Heather Gibson.[16][19] The team wanted to mix the adventuring style of Ultima Underworld and the 3D characters shown off in Virtua Fighter.[20] The development budget for the game at the time was approximately £440,000.[21] The production atmosphere was fairly informal.[18] Development began in 1994 and lasted eighteen months.[17][22] The team endured excessive overtime and crunch during the last stages.[18] During production, Core Design was sold to CentreGold, which in turn was purchased by Eidos Interactive in May 1996, who became publisher for the title.[18][21][23]

When Gard first presented the idea for the game, the concept art featured a male lead who strongly resembled Indiana Jones. Heath-Smith asked for a change for legal reasons.[22][24][25][26] When Gard created the initial design document, he decided to give the player a choice of genders and created a female adventurer alongside the male character. Once he realized creating and animating two playable characters would require double the design work, he decided to slim back down to one.[25] The female character, originally named Laura Cruz, was his favorite, so he discarded the male character before development work began.[21][22][25][27][28] After Eidos became the game's publisher, they unsuccessfully lobbied for a selectable male lead.[21] Speaking about his approach to the concept, Gard noted that he deliberately went against publisher trends when designing both the character and the gameplay.

 

[luj1]

You have to play the first game to really understand Tomb Raider. It's unique, no other game in the series comes close (TR4 comes closest). Exploration in long forgotten ruins, completely alone... no other game captures the sense of isolation quite as well.

RE 2 comes close or maybe Silent Hill 1