Thoughts after playing Doom 1 and 2

[Lonely Vazdru]

I'm definitely looking at Quake, and a friend suggested Duke Nukem 3D. Any others I should be aware of?

I've hated FPS with a passion since the beginning but Duke and Outlaws were different enough to make me enjoy them. I also played a bit of Descent 2 and liked the 3D shooting/moving aspect.

 

[Sceptic]

How amusing that your two last posts are equally shit and clueless, LS.

Nah one of them is not. Here, let me quote again:

The most underrated FPS is Jedi Knight. Absolutely amazing level design. And this might actually piss some people here but i really think Quake 2 is pretty underrated too. It was just Doom redux but it was done well for what it was. Good level design and solid arsenal, none of that wimpy shit from Quake 3.

See?

From the video it looked like an fps/adventure.

FFS Dicksmoker, stop doing this. You have this uncanny ability to find one video and somehow see the game for the exact opposite of what it is. Go get the game and play it. JK has very distinct levels, separated by a loading screen, without even the attempt at seamlessness that HL tried. It's not an open world. It has as much adventure elements as Doom. Maybe less.

 

[Secretninja]

Using weapons appropriately is not the same thing as just aiming well. Obviously someone wasting all of their rockets on a crowd of zombiemen is going to die; that does not make firing rockets into a crowd of large monsters any more difficult.

Doom is still hard, it's just not an aiming game. More of a, I dunno, "technique" FPS. Learning how to run in and out of cover, using chokepoints, timing rockets & BFG shots, choosing targets, etc.

This.

And the game originally had auto-aim for the vertical plane? I think I remember this slightly from that demo way back. Lol, the decline began in 1993.

You can't even traverse the aiming point in the vertical plane, did you play it in full mouselook or something?

Yeah, the version I had had full mouselook.

Jumping and mouselook? Yes, continue to share your thoughts on Doom, the game you haven't actually played.

Kids this days think what doom must be played with mouse. Dunno about multiplayer game, but mouse in the single player doom is the travesty.

Fuckin wasd. I remember when pinky was trigger button, because that is where it rested on the ARROW KEYS.

Also, wtf dicksmoker. Just now playing doom for the first time, never played unreal? For shame. FOR SHAME.

 

[Destroid]

Well, this is storyfag codex, not manly codex.

 

[Forest Dweller]

From the video it looked like an fps/adventure.

FFS Dicksmoker, stop doing this. You have this uncanny ability to find one video and somehow see the game for the exact opposite of what it is. Go get the game and play it. JK has very distinct levels, separated by a loading screen, without even the attempt at seamlessness that HL tried. It's not an open world. It has as much adventure elements as Doom. Maybe less.

It's cool that you mention that, because I was talking about Unreal.

 

[Zomg]

Sorry but that doesn't actually change much of the game, considering both jumping and vertical aiming are useless outside of any PWADS requiring them.

Vertical isn't useless, there are a lot of times where you get dropped/raised by an elevator into some set piece or ambush, and with vertical aiming you can step on-off the elevator then shoot the enemies at an angle. So playing with it on ruins all of those at least, and that's just the first thing that came to mind.

Jumping would screw up a couple of secret room finds I guess.

 

[DraQ]

Unreal was a completely sterile experience for me.

Too bad your dad wasn't.

Zing!

I meant it looked like one big seamless world to explore as opposed to levels. Hard to see how that wouldn't have heavy adventure elements.

Well, no and no.

The game has definite levels, although huge ones that try to tie in with each other and can have several alternative routes through them, those levels are completed in sequence without possibility to backtrack (although there are user created sp map packs implementing hub system), the combat focus is shifted from slaughtering hordes of mooks to fighting fewer enemies that are smart, fast and generally dangerous, and there are story elements. It's still a pureblood FPS, albeit with somewhat underpowered (but cool) weapons and awesome atmosphere.

 

[SharkClub]

If you want an exploration heavy game with awesome levels (but very different from Doom in all aspects, including few, but smart and agile enemies) and are an atmosphere whore, you should definitely try Unreal.

Unreal is good for one thing, and one thing only: The atmosphere. It's possibly the most immersive FPS game I've ever played, but that doesn't get past the fact that the enemies don't take recoil from any weapons, constantly jumping and flying all over the place shooting stuff at you. Stupid shit. And the only weapons that really feels like it packs a punch is the Flak Cannon at close range.

Also, I must admit, I kinda liked how you could change the position of your gun; left, right or center.

 

[Destroid]

I've always enjoyed the UT line of games over the Quake line because of the alt fire, gives the weaponry a lot more variety.

 

[DraQ]

Unreal is good for one thing, and one thing only: The atmosphere.

Well, not really. It also has good AI, large, explorable levels, and the weapons are conceptually awesome, just underpowered. Someone should bake a high definition pack that would also make the weapons more powerful, while making enemies compensate for this with better reflexes and more firepower.

 

[SharkClub]

It also has good AI

I thought I just explained this? All they do is jump around you and shoot stuff at you, nothing really advanced. And Quake's enemies take recoil when you shoot them.

large, explorable levels, and the weapons are conceptually awesome, just underpowered.

Ok, agreed. I kinda exaggerated when I said "one thing" anyway, some of it's good, I just hate the fighting mainly.

Someone should bake a high definition pack that would also make the weapons more powerful, while making enemies compensate for this with better reflexes and more firepower.

Maybe I'd have the will to finish it then, I think I got like 30 levels in or so and got bored.

I've always enjoyed the UT line of games over the Quake line because of the alt fire, gives the weaponry a lot more variety.

Gotta love Alt-Fire.

 

[DraQ]

It also has good AI

I thought I just explained this? All they do is jump around you and shoot stuff at you, nothing really advanced. And Quake's enemies take recoil when you shoot them.

Quake 2 enemies get stuck in doorways all the time and avoiding fire for them is some painfully regular zig-zagging followed by crouching in plain sight.

In Unreal an enemy can navigate half of the level to get you from behind. Or go into Mexican stand-off kind of situation with player (from own experience).

Also, enemies do recoil in Unreal, although rarely, for short time and usually when they are already wounded. Also, if you want to rely on disabling attacks, you can blow enemies around with rockets, or use ASMD, as those have chance of knocking some enemies (Skaarj) out for a while.

Even the weakest Skaarj could open any number of Q2 tanks with claws alone, because of their sluggishness. Titan would simply use crumpled tanks as projectiles.


If you meant Q1 enemies, they were actually less sophisticated than those in Q2, except for being actually dangerous, difficult and not trying anything advanced that might reveal their artificial stupidity. Overall Q1 had awesome bestiary, far better than Q2, but not necessarily smarter.

 

[UserNamer]

Unreal is good for one thing, and one thing only: The atmosphere.

Well, not really. It also has good AI, large, explorable levels, and the weapons are conceptually awesome, just underpowered. Someone should bake a high definition pack that would also make the weapons more powerful, while making enemies compensate for this with better reflexes and more firepower.

how does unreal have a good ai?

You simply face very, very few enemies at a time who have a shitload of health and they strafe.

They just strafe and that's it, that's the extent of their artificial intelligence.

EDIT: sorry, you already answered that. Still, I'm pretty sure the enemies just jumped around and that was it.

 

[Excommunicator]

I am going to have to try Unreal; you guys are making it sound pretty good. I always enjoyed the Unreal Tournament Universe/Setting anyway

 

[SharkClub]

In Unreal an enemy can navigate half of the level to get you from behind. Or go into Mexican stand-off kind of situation with player (from own experience).

You're making shit up now, honey.

 

[Destroid]

If you meant Q1 enemies, they were actually less sophisticated than those in Q2, except for being actually dangerous, difficult and not trying anything advanced that might reveal their artificial stupidity. Overall Q1 had awesome bestiary, far better than Q2, but not necessarily smarter.

Q1 had far more interesting visual design in general, from the levels to the monsters. Demons and surreal environments are much cooler than the Strogg and the industrial settings for Q2.

 

[DraQ]

In Unreal an enemy can navigate half of the level to get you from behind. Or go into Mexican stand-off kind of situation with player (from own experience).

You're making shit up now, honey.

Nope. I had a situation when I flakked a skaarj and it retreated into a room, refusing to come out. I was aiming at the doorway from one side, skaarj was covering the door from the other. It was near the end of Gateway to Na Pali (skycaves.unr), the room was the last staircase. I finally took it out with shrapnel. I could have just rushed it, but not without sustaining damage.

The other situation was when I played coop on Skaarj Tower custom map, with a guy commenting constantly that the AI isn't that good and all it does is jump around (imagine that).
The level is an enormous cavern with numerous structures, bridges, ledges and lake at the bottom. There is a house of sorts on one of the ledges where we were battling a bunch of skaarj gunners armed with eightballs. Both we and the gunners were essentially taking cover behind the opposite sides of the house and taking potshots at each other, when one of the skaarj silently circled the house and rocketed the guy complaining about the AI squarely in the ass, sending him off the ledge and into the water far below. The guy had a shieldbelt so he survived, but he sort of withdrew and became strangely silent.

Much lulz were had and poetic irony was noted.

Unreal AI is not much of a team player, but as long as the level contains fairly complete network of nodes laid out, it can be freakishly smart.

 

[Mackerel]

Jumping and mouselook? Yes, continue to share your thoughts on Doom, the game you haven't actually played.

You're right, I can see how being able to move the mouse vertically as opposed to having an auto aim makes the game so entirely different.

You think that playing Doom with features that weren't in the game originally doesn't drastically change the gameplay?

Jumping in maps that weren't designed for it can completely change their flow and allow you to access areas and obtain secrets that you wouldn't normally be able to. When you see something you want on a ledge in Doom you don't just jump up and get it, you say, "There must be a tunnel or secret to access that." You are not getting the Doom experience with mlook and jumping.

 

[Sceptic]

It's cool that you mention that, because I was talking about Unreal.

Doh.
Or... actually not. Doesn't apply to Unreal either

Q1 had far more interesting visual design in general, from the levels to the monsters. Demons and surreal environments are much cooler than the Strogg and the industrial settings for Q2.

That's what having both Romero and Petersen doing design does for your games. For Q2 Romero had left and Carmack was now running the show. Petersen left just before Q2 release IIRC, so he had a less prominent role. Then design at id went completely down the drain when all their good designers had been kicked out (Romero, Petersen, McGee, in that order).

 

[UserNamer]

If you meant Q1 enemies, they were actually less sophisticated than those in Q2, except for being actually dangerous, difficult and not trying anything advanced that might reveal their artificial stupidity. Overall Q1 had awesome bestiary, far better than Q2, but not necessarily smarter.

Q1 had far more interesting visual design in general, from the levels to the monsters. Demons and surreal environments are much cooler than the Strogg and the industrial settings for Q2.

I agree. Did you know that John Fagmack said that if he could go back, he would redo the entirety of quake 1 in a industrial\military setting? What a shame.

 

[DefJam101]

Quake 1's weapons are kinda boring:

1) Rapid-fire axe lol
2) Worthless shotgun that you will never use
3) Shotgun
4) Nades, fun weapon
5) Worthless nailgun used to kill rabbits
6) Nailgun
7) wtfballs rocket launcher, first useful weapon
6) wtfbbq lightning gun, second useful weapon

Actually the weapons are okay but everything fires way too fast and the lower-tier shotgun and nailgun have no purpose. So if you're not fighting a shambler there are only four weapons in the game: supershotty, grenade, rlauncher, beam of death

 

[Forest Dweller]

Jumping and mouselook? Yes, continue to share your thoughts on Doom, the game you haven't actually played.

You're right, I can see how being able to move the mouse vertically as opposed to having an auto aim makes the game so entirely different.

You think that playing Doom with features that weren't in the game originally doesn't drastically change the gameplay?

Jumping in maps that weren't designed for it can completely change their flow and allow you to access areas and obtain secrets that you wouldn't normally be able to. When you see something you want on a ledge in Doom you don't just jump up and get it, you say, "There must be a tunnel or secret to access that." You are not getting the Doom experience with mlook and jumping.

I concede that maybe you have a point on the jumping thing, if I was able to really reach secret areas that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. I can't remember in detail whether that was true or not. But you're still full of shit on the mouselook thing. The only difference it makes is that I have to manually aim as opposed to having it auto-aim. If anything, my way is more hardcore.

 

[Lord Rocket]

Nope

That shit seriously fucks up the dynamics of combat, for example by making it easier to attack arch viles who are being 'protected' by a horde of weaker monsters. Any time you're above something you're also able to choose which targets to attack, which can make a massive difference in how you approach a situation. Not to mention the fact you're now essentially immune to having your weapons accidentally strike a ledge instead of a monster that's above you.
Oh and of course you're no longer subject to the autoaim limit where you won't aim properly if you're not close enough.

 

[Sceptic]

Did you know that John Fagmack said that if he could go back, he would redo the entirety of quake 1 in a industrial\military setting? What a shame.

This was Carmack's idea for Quake all along (in opposition to Romero's Thor-like being with giant hammer, which sadly never saw the light of day). This was the reason for Q1's disjointed design (half gothic half military/industrial) and, thankfully for us, why its atmosphere is so awesome. It was also the reason why Carmack kicked Romero out of id, in the same way he'd kicked Hall and would later kick McGee and Petersen.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Nope

That shit seriously fucks up the dynamics of combat, for example by making it easier to attack arch viles who are being 'protected' by a horde of weaker monsters. Any time you're above something you're also able to choose which targets to attack, which can make a massive difference in how you approach a situation. Not to mention the fact you're now essentially immune to having your weapons accidentally strike a ledge instead of a monster that's above you.
Oh and of course you're no longer subject to the autoaim limit where you won't aim properly if you're not close enough.

You just described a bunch of ways that will limit my choices as a gamer and make the gameplay less interesting. If you enjoy that more than all the power to you.

But if you can't see the superiority of manual aiming to arbitrary auto aim then you have issues. FFS.