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Wizardry Thoughts about Wizardry 8

Serus

Arcane
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The most fascinating thing about W8 was that it was made at all. It's a bastard child of an age confused and bewildered by technology. As a result, any normalfag will tell you that the game's visual aesthetic is crude - and, though it stings, they're certainly far from wrong. The primeval feel of W8's graphical engine is akin to the sensation of gazing at the unskillful cave wall renderings of our ancestors - with the sense of wonder replaced by a hint of disgust. And aesthetic quality is certainly not the only attribute held by back by the game engine.

But let's first denote what W8 got right.

The class system. I could stop here because it would be enough. This game has the most appealing, well-designed, satisfying class system of any in the genre - even surpassing its immortal predecessor, Wizardry VII. Epic poems in the style of the classics could be written about its merits, but I'll let others gush - only mentioning the overlooked. How many RPGs have we played with flawed character creation? With worthless skills and useless attributes? With false choices on levelups? None of that is here. Every time we tick up a skill or attribute in W8 it means something, goddamnit! We are truly shaping and forming, in the most uncynical sense, our characters into an imagined end goal.

The voice acting. Yes, what an odd thing to compliment in our current age. There is a particular puzzlement I share with felipepepe. Why are critics in this field almost universally ignorant of its past? The civilization of video games is one that apparently forgets what it did the day before - and thus learns nothing. For 10 years, we all watched as the word "immersion" was butchered, as blind seekers desperately grasped for some hint of tangible atmosphere. None of them had ever even heard of System Shock 2. Similarly, W8 is the bar with which the quality and utility of voice acting should be measured. I truly cannot think of a game that did so much with so little in terms of VA. The most organic VA we get today involves annoying sidekicks acting as vocal quest arrows, the decline nearly infinitely steep. Oh well, maybe games media will finally grasp their holy grail with the next banal gravelly-voiced protagonist.

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The ultimate manifestation of love-hate is W8's combat. It is here that I feel pangs of longing for the perfection that is combat in Wizardry VII. Firstly, though, I must say (and I think most would agree) that W8's combat, given its unique engine constraints, is brilliantly designed. Spell areas, range, line of sight - these mechanisms work well in the system. I can't imagine a way they could have improved the workings of combat given the unconstrained 3D nature of the game. The combat systems are just remarkable as well. Many different and useful targeting types provide spells with differing kinds of utility, often situationally dependent. There is often (though not always) a good deal of strategy and meaty decision-making to be had in combat.

But combat ultimately does not function well in the field. Even fixing the issue of slowness, other problems exist. Ground-targeted spells are an exercise in pixel-hunting. The unconstrained 3D movement generally leads to fighting up against terrain intersections. Some very few parties can make interesting use of the tactical party layout, but even those are better off fighting a small cone of enemies. Movement, reach, and line of sight often interact poorly and come at a significant cost whenever they mix. Summoning anything is either trivial or a nightmarish chore and rarely anything in between.

Combat in Wizardry VII is quite gamey, by comparison. Your party vs. an enemy party. Front, back, and middle ranks. Spells that hit individuals, ranks, or everyone. But this system is lightning fast and highly strategic. Reach is a consistent and quantifiable advantage. Shifting ranks is a common tactic with clear advantages and disadvantages. Summoning and similar concepts always work as expected. It's a smaller consideration as well, but the abstract, gamey nature of the combat lends itself well to things like backstabbing out of stealth.

It's telling that there is far more combat in Wizardry VII than W8 and yet people consistently complain about the amount of combat in W8. Ultimately, Wizardry VII and W8 are combatfag games so any failings in this arena are magnified. I absolutely love and adore W8, but playing it I find myself constantly under painful emotional assault at the lost opportunities resulting from the engine constraints.

The biggest underlying problem is this: Wizardry VII has so much more content and combat than W8. The first time someone plays Wizardry VII, it will take them an unseemly number of hours to complete or even to progress very far. But Wizardry VII can be mastered and thereafter completed in a small fraction of the time. W8 will always be a slog, no matter how knowledgeable or expert the player. The decisions that can be made in combat and the execution of those decisions just take longer - picking targets, dropping spells, moving, considering positioning. The gamey Wizardry VII combat is very deep. But making informed decisions is very quick because of the constrained combat setup in which all the rules interact.

What could have been... :negative:

I don't agree with your summary of Wizardry 8 graphics but good post otherwise.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
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Sep 15, 2006
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Finnegan's Wake
So this thread made me start a new game :negative:

I started with a faery monk, faery ninja and mook bard. I don't intend to finish the game, just play until they kick ass.
What I noticed is that you lose additional swings if you use the move-action. Even if you just rotate. So that was correct. I probably didn't notice/care/remenber before because it wasn't a big issue, since I previously didn't focus on multiple-hit-chars. Usually casters+fighter with some hybrids to cover the sides and back.
The ninja sucks as much as I remember them doing. Not really fun building a char around one (mid/late game) item.
The monk kicks ass.
What surprized me, is that they get hit quite often. Even with the additional AC and after pumping Stealth and Speed... :/
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Heh yeah, made me pick up my last game in progress too. Trying to build my Bishop only "spontaneously" learning spells that don't exist in books anywhere. Been a tough fucking road.
 

Zetor

Arcane
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Jan 9, 2003
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Budapest, Hungary
Just finished the game (using my first-ever party that finished Wiz7... in the early 90s!), and man, endgame is way too samey once the party has some good gear. Put up level 7 Soul/Element Shield on turn 1 (add Haste and Bless for tougher encounters), then just move from enemy clump to enemy clump with melee attack command set for everyone, mowing each clump down in a turn or two while the enemy zergs ineffectually try to cast spells/specials (UNAFFECTED) or missiles (Deflected by Missile Shield) at the party. The hardest enemies are actually the heavy melee types, but there's basically none of those after a certain point, except for elementals. Even the Rapax melee enemies are super easy if only 2-3 can reach the group at one time.

Unless the party has some strong physical ranged attackers, there don't seem to be many other options... enemies frequently put up Soul/Element Shield as well as Magic Screen, and their base resistances are high enough that even my mage with 66 powercast barely ever got a damage spell to hit for double digits (never mind instant kills).

e: yeah I know, I should play Ironman with a solo faerie ninja or sommat. Thing is, the early/midgame is actually really dangerous (and fun!). It's just that once the party has the full toolkit of buffs / critical spells, they can survive everything except a small handful of encounters (Nessie, Lava Lord) unless the player screws up on purpose... or they're playing DoddTheSlayer or whatever that mod is called.
 
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Siobhan

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Feb 25, 2013
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Wait, there is a way to play the game where Nessie is not a complete push-over? I've played Wiz 8 with three different parties (6+1NPC, 4, and 2 characters, respectively, never a solo run), mixed up the order in which I do the quests (Umpani before T'rang or the other way round, when to go to Rapax castle, sometimes skipping the secret dungeons) and every single time Nessie was a huge disappointment. She's clearly meant to be a challenge given the obvious boss fight arena and how huge she is, but every single time I got there it was one of the easiest and dullest fights in the whole game. Just wail on her until she drops. They should have thrown in some minions (like in the fight against the sorceress and two death knights) to make positioning, buffing, and resource management more important. Then again, those minions would have probably been a bunch of fucking fish and electric eels... damn, that underwater level really sucks on so many levels.
 

Siobhan

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Not on my first playthrough, but every other time yes. Even with smaller parties and thus higher level per character there are many difficult fights in each run, but Nessie has never been among them. My most painful Wizardry 8 memories are more banal things like being flanked by two huge Rapax patrols in the castle. And the sorceress is always very challenging because I like to go there early when the death knights still have a very high chance of instant killing you if you don't get into melee range fast enough. And even then they can butcher a weak party in a few turns.

Maybe I should just do another run and try to get to Nessie as early as possible. I suppose if one imports a party from Wizardry 7 it takes less than an hour to get to her (and then she can probably wipe out your entire party in a few turns).
 

Zetor

Arcane
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Budapest, Hungary
Yeah, Nessie was difficult only because my party was underleveled (was only able to cast a level 2-3 Element Shield, f'rex). She is also kinda scary in melee, and there aren't many ways to protect against a heavy melee enemy at that point (my only alchemist was my ninja, and I don't think I got BoS until endgame... I think I had two granite potions, which meant that two of my frontliners were exposed). I used a lot of resurrection powders in that fight, is all I'm saying.

The most legit difficult encounter was a shitload of deathsting apuses (apii?) and mauligators that ambushed my level 9 party as I approached Marten's Bluff. Even with optimal positioning, those things were deadly at that level. Had to whittle down the mauligators with ranged AOEs and direct-cast spells while they were stuck behind the apuses... otherwise they'd gib someone in a single turn as soon as they got into melee range. The Insanity spell helped a lot there...

e: also, this playthrough was pretty much a speedrun. I skipped almost everything outside the critical path, and avoided all the random encounters I could once my mage got X-Ray.
 

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