Wizardry Thoughts about Wizardry 8

[jcd]

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[King Crispy]

- Your cons seem to me, combined with your other dislikes of the game, to outweigh your pros

- Your comment about the main story being "pants on retarded" heavily weighs your stance on this game towards the negative IMO

- Your ridiculous misunderstanding and frankly quite retarded inability to grasp the moving mechanic in combat throws you over the edge of likers and dislikers of this game

- Fuck you if you can't handle being talked about. You made the thread, deal with it.

 

[Gregz]

Tried like hell to solo this shit years ago. Now I'm an alcoholic.

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, but it's Wizardry 8's fault?

 

[jcd]

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[King Crispy]

Moving beyond what you're allocated in a combat turn constitutes the next turn's action. This is not hard to grasp, especially with a very obvious graphical indicator practically yelling it at you.

 

[DraQ]

Moving beyond what you're allocated in a combat turn constitutes the next turn's action.

Isn't that only possible in the fake-RT mode?
Why would anyone use the fake-RT mode anyway?

 

[cfisher2833]

The opening sequence for the game is hilariously bad. Great game, but my god, that opening scene. Reminded me of a Saturday morning cartoon.

 

[Zombra]

Why would anyone use the fake-RT mode anyway?

I always use it

I like it because a) one less mouse click to start the next turn and b) you can alter orders on the fly. "Oh look, Joe got hit for 50, my bishop hasn't gone yet, better change him to a heal spell."

Now you mention it, I don't see any advantage to the TB mode.

 

[Zombra]

The opening sequence for the game is hilariously bad. Great game, but my god, that opening scene. Reminded me of a Saturday morning cartoon.

Well - you gotta remember that the whole game is about a talking spider, a rhinocerous, and a gorilla chasing a robot in a spaceship. They weren't exactly going for Masterpiece Theater.

 

[DraQ]

Why would anyone use the fake-RT mode anyway?

I always use it

I like it because a) one less mouse click to start the next turn and b) you can alter orders on the fly. "Oh look, Joe got hit for 50, my bishop hasn't gone yet, better change him to a heal spell."

Now you mention it, I don't see any advantage to the TB mode.

BG's RTWP - never again.

 

[DraQ]

One more thing - reduced reactivity in TB mode:

• kind of deemphasizes sequence in execution phase blurring the timing artifacts a bit
  
• requires thinking ahead rather than merely reacting which is nice, light, mental exercise

The opening sequence for the game is hilariously bad. Great game, but my god, that opening scene. Reminded me of a Saturday morning cartoon.

Well - you gotta remember that the whole game is about a talking spider, a rhinocerous, and a gorilla chasing a robot in a spaceship. They weren't exactly going for Masterpiece Theater.

This.
Wizardry 8 seems close to what a bunch of bored, pimply-faced nerds could come up with during their weekend D&D campaign. It's not exactly my thing, but it isn't necessarily a bad one either - there is charm to be found int this sort of campy and cheesy storytelling, no matter how infantile it would seem, and not taking itself entirely seriously helps making it actually palatable.

 

[Shannow]

Why would anyone use the fake-RT mode anyway?

I always use it

I like it because a) one less mouse click to start the next turn and b) you can alter orders on the fly. "Oh look, Joe got hit for 50, my bishop hasn't gone yet, better change him to a heal spell."

Now you mention it, I don't see any advantage to the TB mode.

See how nobody brofisted that post. Think about that.

Spoiler

Also: Story- and lore-fags will try to ruin any game.

Spoiler

In b4 DraQ tries to rip me a new one.

 

[Zombra]

Now you mention it, I don't see any advantage to the TB mode.

See how nobody brofisted that post. Think about that.

Haha, well, I don't exactly expect an outpouring of support for a defense of anything not TB, but seriously, the two modes play almost exactly the same - neither one is actual TB or RT; they're both phase-based - except in one you can still do something except sit and watch, plus it goes by quicker (not always a good thing, but in W8 ...)

Also, one can only expect so many fists in a thread with 5 people.

One more thing - reduced reactivity in TB mode:

• kind of deemphasizes sequence in execution phase blurring the timing artifacts a bit
  
• requires thinking ahead rather than merely reacting which is nice, light, mental exercise

So you can see it as kind of a slightly-more-difficult mode? Sure, I can dig that. There is way too much combat in W8 for me to really feel like it's more fun as a careful, ponderous chess game though. Plus, playing reactively is a different kind of mental exercise.

 

[Zetor]

Regarding move-and-act in Wiz8 (TB mode ofc): does it reduce the number of attacks for characters, or does it set them to 1? In my experience my fighter-types would only be able to attack once (twice if dual wielding) after moving, even if I only used the move command to change group facing. Kind of annoying when using characters that depend on hitting the enemy eleventy billion times per turn (like MA monks)...

 

[Cadmus]

I don't think I've ever understood how the moving works exactly even though I finished the game. I also never understood plenty of other things, including the story, lol.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Are you using the Wizardry 8 speed mod?

You can increase the speed of combat, up to 150X i think, and make the games larger battles much more tolerable.

 

[DraQ]

Haha, well, I don't exactly expect an outpouring of support for a defense of anything not TB, but seriously, the two modes play almost exactly the same - neither one is actual TB or RT; they're both phase-based

I don't think you can call it phase based if it no longer has distinct phases.

So you can see it as kind of a slightly-more-difficult mode? Sure, I can dig that.

Not just that. It also allows more laid-back playstyle - beer in hand and no need to rapidly react to stuff happening - and it reduces timing artifacts - in actual combat characters don't move in strict sequence, so removal of ability to react based on this sequence is a plus.

Plus, playing reactively is a different kind of mental exercise.

One better handled by true RT games, preferably not party based as those mostly have clicking on moving targets as their main source of difficulty.

 

[ST'Ranger]

The most fascinating thing about W8 was that it was made at all. It's a bastard child of an age confused and bewildered by technology. As a result, any normalfag will tell you that the game's visual aesthetic is crude - and, though it stings, they're certainly far from wrong. The primeval feel of W8's graphical engine is akin to the sensation of gazing at the unskillful cave wall renderings of our ancestors - with the sense of wonder replaced by a hint of disgust. And aesthetic quality is certainly not the only attribute held by back by the game engine.

But let's first denote what W8 got right.

The class system. I could stop here because it would be enough. This game has the most appealing, well-designed, satisfying class system of any in the genre - even surpassing its immortal predecessor, Wizardry VII. Epic poems in the style of the classics could be written about its merits, but I'll let others gush - only mentioning the overlooked. How many RPGs have we played with flawed character creation? With worthless skills and useless attributes? With false choices on levelups? None of that is here. Every time we tick up a skill or attribute in W8 it means something, goddamnit! We are truly shaping and forming, in the most uncynical sense, our characters into an imagined end goal.

The voice acting. Yes, what an odd thing to compliment in our current age. There is a particular puzzlement I share with felipepepe. Why are critics in this field almost universally ignorant of its past? The civilization of video games is one that apparently forgets what it did the day before - and thus learns nothing. For 10 years, we all watched as the word "immersion" was butchered, as blind seekers desperately grasped for some hint of tangible atmosphere. None of them had ever even heard of System Shock 2. Similarly, W8 is the bar with which the quality and utility of voice acting should be measured. I truly cannot think of a game that did so much with so little in terms of VA. The most organic VA we get today involves annoying sidekicks acting as vocal quest arrows, the decline nearly infinitely steep. Oh well, maybe games media will finally grasp their holy grail with the next banal gravelly-voiced protagonist.

--------------------------------------------------------

The ultimate manifestation of love-hate is W8's combat. It is here that I feel pangs of longing for the perfection that is combat in Wizardry VII. Firstly, though, I must say (and I think most would agree) that W8's combat, given its unique engine constraints, is brilliantly designed. Spell areas, range, line of sight - these mechanisms work well in the system. I can't imagine a way they could have improved the workings of combat given the unconstrained 3D nature of the game. The combat systems are just remarkable as well. Many different and useful targeting types provide spells with differing kinds of utility, often situationally dependent. There is often (though not always) a good deal of strategy and meaty decision-making to be had in combat.

But combat ultimately does not function well in the field. Even fixing the issue of slowness, other problems exist. Ground-targeted spells are an exercise in pixel-hunting. The unconstrained 3D movement generally leads to fighting up against terrain intersections. Some very few parties can make interesting use of the tactical party layout, but even those are better off fighting a small cone of enemies. Movement, reach, and line of sight often interact poorly and come at a significant cost whenever they mix. Summoning anything is either trivial or a nightmarish chore and rarely anything in between.

Combat in Wizardry VII is quite gamey, by comparison. Your party vs. an enemy party. Front, back, and middle ranks. Spells that hit individuals, ranks, or everyone. But this system is lightning fast and highly strategic. Reach is a consistent and quantifiable advantage. Shifting ranks is a common tactic with clear advantages and disadvantages. Summoning and similar concepts always work as expected. It's a smaller consideration as well, but the abstract, gamey nature of the combat lends itself well to things like backstabbing out of stealth.

It's telling that there is far more combat in Wizardry VII than W8 and yet people consistently complain about the amount of combat in W8. Ultimately, Wizardry VII and W8 are combatfag games so any failings in this arena are magnified. I absolutely love and adore W8, but playing it I find myself constantly under painful emotional assault at the lost opportunities resulting from the engine constraints.

The biggest underlying problem is this: Wizardry VII has so much more content and combat than W8. The first time someone plays Wizardry VII, it will take them an unseemly number of hours to complete or even to progress very far. But Wizardry VII can be mastered and thereafter completed in a small fraction of the time. W8 will always be a slog, no matter how knowledgeable or expert the player. The decisions that can be made in combat and the execution of those decisions just take longer - picking targets, dropping spells, moving, considering positioning. The gamey Wizardry VII combat is very deep. But making informed decisions is very quick because of the constrained combat setup in which all the rules interact.

What could have been...

 

[Zombra]

Haha, well, I don't exactly expect an outpouring of support for a defense of anything not TB, but seriously, the two modes play almost exactly the same - neither one is actual TB or RT; they're both phase-based

I don't think you can call it phase based if it no longer has distinct phases.

I think the official name is "continuous turn-based". It's still broken up into distinct rounds. Try it and you'll see the banner announcements: ROUND 1, ROUND 2; it flips over once every character and enemy has had a chance to take their turn(s). Note that you can also hit the "pause" button at any time to switch back to TB, but not before the rest of the round plays out.

Not just that. [Pure TB] also allows more laid-back playstyle - beer in hand and no need to rapidly react to stuff happening - and it reduces timing artifacts - in actual combat characters don't move in strict sequence, so removal of ability to react based on this sequence is a plus.

Depends on how important it is to you to simulate all actions - including such actions as six melee attacks in a round - as simultaneous. Since game actions are resolved in initiative order - they do act in strict sequence, despite "realism" - in either mode, clearly it is not the intention of the system to simulate true simultanaeity (as we see in a title like Wasteland, wherein two combatants can shoot simultaneously and kill each other). I can still dig the idea that intention translates to action and can't "change horses midstream" e.g. Raymond starts casting a Fireball and once he starts "warming it up", it's inevitable ... but I also like the idea of being able to. If Raymond sees that Joe has been hurt, maybe he can put the brakes on that Fireball and change to Heal Wounds instead. That's a cool "jumping in front of the bullet" moment, and it can't happen in pure TB. It just depends on what type of interpretation you prefer. I like the aesthetic whereby you can react quickly instead of waiting the whole round. Plus, it's more involving in my opinion, as to act optimally, one must carefully observe the result of every action and decide whether to respond; whereas in straight TB one can just wait until the end of the round and look at who's alive and who's dead and plan from there - doesn't matter who hit who when.

As for laid-back - obviously, large stretches that prohibit user input give you more time to drink your beer. That can be a good thing or not depending on the game and the alternatives. I honestly have nothing against "sit and watch how things play out" games, and enjoy automation when it is warranted ... but I get more out of W8 when I can change orders on the fly. Hell, even in continuous mode I still play 95% of W8's combats with one hand in a bag of chips.

Plus, playing reactively is a different kind of mental exercise.

One better handled by true RT games, preferably not party based as those mostly have clicking on moving targets as their main source of difficulty.

Actually, W8 handles it just fine. No moving targets, just little icons you click to reassign orders in a very straightforward menu format, and for complex actions such as picking a spell to cast the game automatically pauses. (Note this does not make it RTWP.)

ST'Ranger Great post, just got around to reading it all

 

[Ninjerk]

Regarding move-and-act in Wiz8 (TB mode ofc): does it reduce the number of attacks for characters, or does it set them to 1? In my experience my fighter-types would only be able to attack once (twice if dual wielding) after moving, even if I only used the move command to change group facing. Kind of annoying when using characters that depend on hitting the enemy eleventy billion times per turn (like MA monks)...

It reduces your attacks the farther you move, and I assume it does so based on initiative.

 

[Monstrous Bat]

I've always missed the old blobber combat while playing Wiz 8. Combat in Wiz 6 was simple, quick and still quite interesting. When I first played Wiz 8 I was like "hell yeah, finally a more sophisticated combat system!" but after a while I realized that the whole movement/positioning system made the combat much more tedious, while adding very little tactical depth. That, combined with the ultra-slow attack animation of monsters, made the combat in Wiz 8 much less enjoyable than that of Wiz 6 and 7 for me, despite the expanded tactical and character options.

And yes, Wiz 8 story was forgettable at best. Goofiness in CRPGs is fine if it's actually funny, which in Wiz 8's case was not. I still consider the story in Wiz 6 to be the best in the Cosmic Forge trilogy.

Wiz 8 was a good game and I did play it to the end (unlike many in this thread ), but it's one of the games that I liked but will probably never play again. On the other hand, I have already replayed Wiz 6 once and I can still see myself playing it again in the future.

TL;DR go play Bane of the Cosmic Forge you next-gen popamolers, even Cleve says it's the best Wizardry

 

[Zetor]

Regarding move-and-act in Wiz8 (TB mode ofc): does it reduce the number of attacks for characters, or does it set them to 1? In my experience my fighter-types would only be able to attack once (twice if dual wielding) after moving, even if I only used the move command to change group facing. Kind of annoying when using characters that depend on hitting the enemy eleventy billion times per turn (like MA monks)...

It reduces your attacks the farther you move, and I assume it does so based on initiative.

Yea, I know -- thing is, in my experience the # of attacks was set to 1 even if the party didn't move at all. E.g. making a 90 degree turn so that the melee characters can hit a flanking enemy.

 

[GlutenBurger]

This thread ate up my weekend by making me want to refresh myself on the game. I started a basic party in Iron Man, and before I knew it was eschewing everything I was supposed to be getting done in lieu of making a little more progress.

That all ended today when I reloaded the game to fool around in Trynton, and, seeing a gap in the fence, wondered whether there was an invisible wall at that spot. Turns out there wasn't. Just a fatally nasty fall.

I didn't see any attacks being lost from pivoting on the spot. It just gave the enemy the initiative. I wasn't using fast classes, but my fighters were definitely getting both the attacks they would have had otherwise. It may be different if you select "run" instead of "walk."

 

[Zetor]

Do you mean both attacks or both strikes per attack?

When not moving, my frontliners' turn looks like this:

1. Monk attacks with MA x2
2. Samurai attacks with mainhand x3
3. Samurai attacks with offhand
4. Ninja attacks with mainhand
5. Ninja attacks with offhand
6. Monk attacks with MA x2
7. Valkyrie attacks
8. Monk attacks with MA x2
9. Samurai attacks with mainhand x3
10. Valkyrie attacks

When selecting 'move' (even when not actually moving, just turning or using it to delay my turn so enemies get into melee range) it looks like this:

1. Samurai attacks with mainhand x3
2. Samurai attacks with offhand
3. Monk attacks with MA x2
4. Ninja attacks with mainhand
5. Ninja attacks with offhand
6. Valkyrie attacks

That's a lot of missing attacks!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Run most definitely uses more movement points or whatever you want to call them than walking does And should only be used when covering ground is paramount.