Incline This game is so good it destroys the RPG genre and itself.

[Ayreos]

I've recently played the demo of this project and was blown away. Let's be clear, i did play a number of games that are considered good on codex, including the early Fallout entries, the only good IE game (you know which one!) and others, but this is it.

This game hits the nail on the head by throwing a coherent world on you in which each character and plot element has real, evident human thought put behind it. Even Torment sometimes suffers from the "unimportant NPC syndrome", but this game is not the near-scandalous fan-fiction bonanza the Morrowind LGNPC project is either, as every character you can talk to can screw you over as good as you can screw over them, and that elevates them to individuals you meet, as opposed to mannequins you must skip over like track obstacles in your quest to beat the game.

Each playthrough of the demo is slightly frustrating to me, since every time i play i find new outcomes to the game's scenarios, which often make random characters grayer, and therefore more unpleasantly real.
I'm not saying AoD is perfect as, for instance, it lacks a system to involve characters you appreciate in your own, personal plot. This brings me to my main point.

It's a joke. The unimpressive graphics seem to underline it: "This is a good wRPG. This is how it's done. Everything else is fluff for the unwashed masses." By being so masterful, however, the game lays bare the entire failure of the very concept of an interactive cRPG. As any mass-produced machine is generations away from equaling a human Dungeon Master, so is the most masterful cRPG doomed to slip into a trite exercise in futility in attempting to create an immersive world that is beyond artistry and illusion. By that i mean that Torment or Fallout are still superior as games, because all of their components are of the highest quality, while Age of Decadence is "merely" superior in its role play which, as outlined above, is bound to be inferior to many an experienced Dungeon Master.

I'm grateful to the devs for the impressive "modern" demo of what role play can and should be in an interactive game, but this is the perfect rare example of why something masterful is not inherently superior. I believe it is important, as it reveals why the concept of "incline" is flawed, as is focusing on a certain specific type of RPG and expecting an "incline" to come from that genre. That's because all "incline" is subjective to the expectation pinned on the genre at a given time. The closest thing to an "incline" can only come by a re-evaluation of ALL the existing works of the RPG genre, in all their components. Aesthetics, depth, entertainment value, interaction and all other factors must contribute across the RPG spectrum to produce a single work that can reliably beat the expectations of a public that is as genre-savvy as the codex members!

 

[Night Goat]

It'll never be released though, so who cares?

 

[ghostdog]

So... it's too good for what it is ?

 

[hivemind]

The "unimpressive graphics" to me seem to underline : "We are a team of 4(maybe 3 I'm not sure) people each working from home and we put our effort into the narrative structure and content instead of shinies"

Sure the game would be better if all the other "factors" were top notch but if that was the goal of the team the game would literally never get released because they would starve before it would even have a chance to sell any copies.

AoD is a prototype which shows us how game narrative can and should be structured and written, this alone makes it the most important project in recent years as it not only sells copies and entertains the customer but it also (perhaps unintentionally)moves the entire genre forward.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Nice post, op.

I think what matters is that an example of this kind of game is being created and will soon exist.

It will be an experience that will scratch a certain kind of itch, regardless of how well it will do that.

 

[Helton]

By that i mean that Torment or Fallout are still superior as games, because all of their components are of the highest quality...

Well this is hardly damning, those being the 2 best cRPGs thus far made. I disagree, though. AoD's combat is markedly better than both of those games. The art, imo, is better than Fallout. The narrative is more similar to Fallout than PST, but perhaps superior to both.

The companions in Fallout were a joke. PST wins the Mexican standoff there. But I think AoD will be a superior game when finished.

Was never much for PnP so I can't comment on that part of your post. But AoD is quite likely going to be the best cRPG ever made by a good margin. Which puts it high in the running for best game made.

edit: I should disclaimer that I haven't played Underrail or finished NeoScavenger.

 

[Ayreos]

The "unimpressive graphics" to me seem to underline : "We are a team of 4(maybe 3 I'm not sure) people each working from home and we put our effort into the narrative structure and content instead of shinies"

Sure the game would be better if all the other "factors" were top notch but if that was the goal of the team the game would literally never get released because they would starve before it would even have a chance to sell any copies.

I agree, hivemind. The way RPG development works today, something truly excellent in all or almost all of its features cannot be released, however i don't believe it's impossible with a different paradigm. The game's graphics for instance: can you not see how they could be much better without being higher in detail? And by that i mean better, but without spending more resources than what has been spent on the current graphics. If you look at wRPGs you probably won't find an easy way out to achieve that. It's either full 3D with realistic characters or lavish isometric 2.5D graphics with a lot of detailed artwork put in.

In jRPGs, though, there is a lot of experimentation in deformation. In the overcrowded low detail department there are Xenoblade or Fire Emblem, but both their detail and the stylistic capacity at their base is still beyond the level of AoD. Looking further you reach something like Bravely Default. I asked my niece to draw me a town similar to this http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/original/416/4161502/2402428-0001.jpg and she pulled it off with her fifth grade markers. The 3D in the game is also so minimal, it would probably save time above the current style, and open the game to a larger market on the basis of the change alone. I'm not saying this is what the devs CAN or even SHOULD do, i'm just discussing the possibilities. Likewise, there are many other games with various takes on the low res, like Vargant Story (if you want the gritty, realistic look). As an artist myself i see little to no difference in skill level between the latter's 3D and AoD's, and without the frequent zooms on the characters' low res faces, an AoD with Vagrant Story's style of 3D would not even need the "high level" art used to model the characters in that game. http://archive.beefjack.com/files/2010/12/vagrant_story_screen_01.jpg

These sort of considerations are what i'd call an "incline", in other words an attempt to improve the genre as a whole by re-evaluating the base game development paradigms and sub-genre boundaries. It seems to me that with the way AoD is being developed, it will release to a jaded niche audience as a pseudo-vaporware title and little to no media coverage. I hope i'm wrong.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's a joke. The unimpressive graphics seem to underline it: "This is a good wRPG. This is how it's done. Everything else is fluff for the unwashed masses."

Not really. The graphics represent our very best, which isn't much considering the old engine and that we have a single artist (other than our concept artist, I mean) who's doing both art and design/scripting. Our team consists of:

programmer
animator
artist/designer
writer/designer
concept artist (concepts, portraits, gui, icons, etc).

By that i mean that Torment or Fallout are still superior as games, because all of their components are of the highest quality, while Age of Decadence is "merely" superior in its role play which, as outlined above, is bound to be inferior to many an experienced Dungeon Master.

They are superior games. We aimed to make a good game that *some* people (who like the same things I do) would appreciate. We never aimed to make the best game evah or show anyone how it's done.

It seems to me that with the way AoD is being developed, it will release to a jaded niche audience as a pseudo-vaporware title and little to no media coverage.

No arguing here.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

haha what a great thread title

would fist if i could

 

[Ninjerk]

RPG game genre*

 

[Lurker King]

This is not the topic of the thread, but... VD, the thought of using Stgy’s engine in your next game (if there is a next game) ever crossed your mind?

 

[fanta]

VD, the thought of using Stgy’s engine 2D art in your next game (if there is a next game) ever crossed your mind?

fixed

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nope (have to be realistic). I'm a great admirer of Styg's work and his own personal qualities, but you don't just get someone else's engine out of the blue. Either Styg gives or licenses it to us, in which case it's an engine and systems we don't know (unlike Styg who knows it inside out, just like we know ours) or he comes on-board with his engine and expertise, but:

- why would he do it when he's perfectly capable of making RPGs he want to make, the way he want them to make?
- the way things are with indie rpgs, an equal share on our next project will be a LOT less than Styg's next project's revenues; we won't sell more by joining forces and we won't give more to the community (i.e. instead of two rpgs, you'll get one).

 

[likaq]

This is not the topic of the thread, but... VD, the thought of using Stgy’s engine in your next game (if there is a next game) ever crossed your mind?

Yeah, engine that can generate 20 years old gfx is better than torque 3d.
Oh wait, this is rpgcodex. Nvm.

 

[Lurker King]

Either Styg gives or licenses it to us, in which case it's an engine and systems we don't know (unlike Styg who knows it inside out, just like we know ours) or he comes on-board with his engine and expertise

What I had in mind was licensing, not charity. So you will remain with Torque until the end.

 

[Lurker King]

VD, the thought of using Stgy’s engine 2D art in your next game (if there is a next game) ever crossed your mind?

fixed

2D looks better, but is not just that. You have little life in cities because Torque can't handle.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I wish you guys could afford to hire another programmer and/or learn a new engine.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Either Styg gives or licenses it to us, in which case it's an engine and systems we don't know (unlike Styg who knows it inside out, just like we know ours) or he comes on-board with his engine and expertise

What I had in mind was licensing, not charity. So you will remain with Torque until the end.

Most likely we'll switch to Unreal 4 for our next project (not the dungeon crawler, but the spaceship one). To clarify my earlier comments about engines and familiarity. Torque is the base engine, generic by defintion, AoD is the RPG engine with all the systems on top of it. We can transfer the 'AoD engine' to Unreal 4, the only question is the scripting language.

 

[Infinitron]

I wish you guys could afford to hire another programmer and/or learn a new engine.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if inXile's coders hadn't begun looking at Unity already, on their own time. Seems like a required job skill.

EDIT: Unreal 4? Ooh, bucking the trend.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

For all the deficiencies on graphics, seeing the player char get scarred with fighting is a hell of a cool touch.

Better than Fable's too.

 

[Galdred]

It's a joke. The unimpressive graphics seem to underline it: "This is a good wRPG. This is how it's done. Everything else is fluff for the unwashed masses." By being so masterful, however, the game lays bare the entire failure of the very concept of an interactive cRPG. As any mass-produced machine is generations away from equaling a human Dungeon Master, so is the most masterful cRPG doomed to slip into a trite exercise in futility in attempting to create an immersive world that is beyond artistry and illusion. By that i mean that Torment or Fallout are still superior as games, because all of their components are of the highest quality, while Age of Decadence is "merely" superior in its role play which, as outlined above, is bound to be inferior to many an experienced Dungeon Master.

I don't agree with this statement (I have not played AoD except for the combat demo, because I don't want to experience the final version, so the following points are generic):
It is very hard to convey any emotion in tabletop RPG. You would extract more sorrow from a player by crashing his customized motorcycle or stealing his sword of munchkinism than by killing anyone, while some games (X-Com, Final Liberation, NeuXCom, Battle Brothers) manage to make you feel sorrow when you lose someone. In a typical RPG, having one NPC companion die would just lead to "let's loot him first. It's certainly what he would have wanted us to do".

Or someone at the table is bound to make an out of character joke whenever tension is at its highest and ruin the atmosphere.

Of course, some people will answer that with their masterful game master, and super motivated group, it would not happen, but I think you idealize your experienced Dungeon Master a lot.

 

[funkadelik]

I was playing AoD but I had to uninstall it. There was just nothing immersive about the game. I feel like I should be able to press a mouse button and something awesome should happen. But it didn't.

 

[Severian Silk]

I was playing AoD but I had to uninstall it. There was just nothing immersive about the game. I feel like I should be able to press a mouse button and something awesome should happen. But it didn't.

You have to press the mouse button with your wiener.

 

[Blackmill]

A bit off topic, but does any one know if there will be a "take power for yourself" type ending? Also, are most persuasion/streetwise playthroughs just three or four hours? I can appreciate the replayability but I'd rather a single long playthrough than multiple different and short ones.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A bit off topic, but does any one know if there will be a "take power for yourself" type ending?

Yes if you found the surgical kit and know what to do with it. That's the only way considering that you're a nobody.

Also, are most persuasion/streetwise playthroughs just three or four hours? I can appreciate the replayability but I'd rather a single long playthrough than multiple different and short ones.

This game is the exact opposite. It meant to be replayed at least 2-3 times (if not 4-5) so you get multiple shorter but different playthrough rather than a single long one. There are over 100 quests in the game but you won't see more than 20-30 in the course of one game.