This article made me think of Age of Decadence

[Infinitron]

Sorry, Vault Dweller

http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=5678

In computer RPGs, there are a number of gameplay “loops” or cycles that all interact with each other. A nice blend of cycles keeps the game varied and interesting. You’ve got the combat cycles – nice, repeating elements that (hopefully!) stay varied enough between different enemies and growing player character power and varying resources that it’s never a complete repetition. And of course, the character growth and loot cycles. And bits of exposition (not really a cycle) to keep the context changing.

For me, exploration is a major element of CRPGs. The whole Star Trek opening monologue captures the spirit of adventure for me. Sure, there may be swashbuckling or grim battles to fight and fantastic loot to be acquired, and of course expertise to be gained – but those are all secondary, or at least co-equal, to the feeling of exploration for me. Even if the entire game takes place within the well-trodden streets of a city, where I’m boldly going where many-a-person has gone before, I want find secrets, surprises, and wonder around every corner. Maybe that’s a projection of my optimism for the real world into games, but that’s how I am.

Here are some ideas for layers / depth / interaction to the exploration mechanic, or in many cases to create obstacles or puzzles to free navigation. Some are pretty common, others – not so much:

#1 – Movement – you go somewhere and something happens.

#2 – Interaction – you must click on something to explore what it does / says

#3 – Hidden interaction. Like #2 but it’s not obvious – like a secret door, or a sword tucked away in the corner. Care must be taken to make sure these aren’t TOO hidden, or the game becomes a “hunt the pixel” exercise.

#4 – Use a skill or ability or a tool (item) in a particular spot to reveal a secret – for example, Mario ducking on pipes to discover the ones with “secrets” in Super Mario Brothers

#5 – Using a skill or ability or a tool (item) in a particular spot to reach an otherwise unattainable location.

#6 – Illusionary obstacles – like an illusionary wall or a hidden bridge across a chasm.

#7 – Destroyable obstacles. Particularly ones that can’t be destroyed by chopping at it with a hand weapon.

#8 – Sequences of actions done in a particular spot – these are usually either explained to the player or strongly hinted at.

#9 – Luring a computer-controlled entity (example: NPC, enemy, or a trap effect) to unlock the environment in a way the player cannot by himself.

#10 – The world / information / rewards change with time – perhaps as the game progresses, with the seasons, or just time of day. Silent villagers during the day are talkative at night, moongates shift position and destination based on phases of the moon, etc. Or as a really weird idea, what if the player could experience “flashbacks” in various locations to what happened at an earlier time as they learn more about the world?

#11 – New ability reveals all-new information / objects / alternate versions of the world. Maybe a dog added to the party can “see” smells that were previously invisible, or the player character can “phase shift” into a shadowy unpopulated alternate dimension version of the same world.

#12 – Proximity Clues – the player is not given the exact location of what they are looking for, but may explore with hints revealing either the approximate location (maybe an area to be searched), or as in Frayed Knights, updates as to whether you are getting “warmer” or “colder” as you search.

#13 – Need special equipment or vehicle to pass – perhaps scuba gear to explore an underwater area, or a magic carpet to fly over an impassible mountain range. This differs from #5 in that it’s not a specific action done in a particular location, but rather the possession (or equipping) of the item allows access to all terrain of of this kind.

#14 – A physical or mental puzzle is required to explore deeper. Dungeon Master style games – like the recent Legend of Grimrock – are full of these.

#15 -Counters. While it’s very “gamey,” having a running counter of the number of undiscovered secrets (possibly broken down by type) can help motivate players and also let them know when to quit digging around every nook and cranny. Ideally, these would be explained through some kind of mechanic that makes sense within the context of the world, but even a totally external mechanic is often better than nothing, depending upon the style of game.

#16 – Mood / Reputation / Faction / Alignment / Progress shifts – the world (or at least the willingness of people to talk about it and give you access to areas and information) changes based on cumulative shifts instigated by the player. Perhaps as you gain the trust of certain villagers, they become more forthcoming with key bits of information. Or efforts to repair flooding throughout the city and direct the flow of water unblocks or reveals new paths.

It's a bit more than just looting coins from barrels and crates, isn't it?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I agree that exploration is one of the major RPG elements, but this element (for me) works only in sandbox RPGs. In most games it is reduced to clicking on containers. Take Deus Ex: HR, for example. It had that #11 feature from the list - the wall punch, which was mostly used to give you access to hidden storerooms with loot.

Now, just because it was done poorly in so many RPGs doesn't mean that it can't or hasn't been done better, but it does mean that the 'moar loot' implementation can be easily skipped and nothing of value will be lost. Improving exploration is a worthy goal but it was never *our* goal. We'll leave it to Jay since he feels so strongly on the subject.

For the record, we do have exploration - you're free to walk around Teron in the demo and look for things to do.

 

[felipepepe]

I see AoD as a computer version of old CYOA classics... both have many of the "exploration features", but presented in a different manner. A very unique thing is that AoD exploration works on a "metagaming level", constantly showing the player stuff that he can try out with other characters/biulds.

 

[Crooked Bee]

That's a pretty good article. You should've posted it on the front page, Infinitron

 

[Zed]

looting useless shit is what you do half the time in Bioshock Infinite and that piece of shit is cramming so many 10/10 reviews down its throat it's gonna take 10/10 dumps for years to come.

 

[Infinitron]

That's a pretty good article. You should've posted it on the front page, Infinitron

I considered it, but it seemed a bit too low level and obvious.

 

[Longshanks]

Exploration's not essential to an RPG. Different games will focus on it to varying degrees. Those that focus on it heavily are my least favourite RPGs (TES and pretty much any sandbox game), usually because it means crap loads of padding between the "ooh cool shiny!" bits, and I never cared for the shinies anyway. Sure there are other aspects to exploration, but most of it involves hiking through garbage to get to the "cool" stuff. Boring. Exploration of plot, of combat possibilities, character progression and non-character motives, I can dig. World exploration as a main focus has never worked for me. All it does is add a whole lot of unnecessary bloat that weakens the more important elements. Some exploration is cool, but if I wanted to play a hiking simulator I'd go hiking, and I never do that.

 

[Infinitron]

This doesn't really have anything directly to do with hiking simulation or open world exploration. Even the small, relatively linear environments of a Black Isle/Bioware-style RPG can be "explored" in the ways that the article describes.

 

[Infinitron]

I agree that exploration is one of the major RPG elements, but this element (for me) works only in sandbox RPGs. In most games it is reduced to clicking on containers. Take Deus Ex: HR, for example. It had that #11 feature from the list - the wall punch, which was mostly used to give you access to hidden storerooms with loot.

It all adds up, VD. The problem is when you have only one or two methods of environmental exploration. That makes things too mechanically obvious and transparent. If you add many different exploration methods to your game, you increase the plausibility of the world and players can accept the illusion.

You think you're the only person in the world who's looked back and realized in retrospect everything he did in a given CRPG was ultimately about getting more loot and becoming better at killing enemies? It doesn't matter as long as players are sufficiently immersed while playing the game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It all adds up, VD. The problem is when you have only one or two methods of environmental exploration. That makes things too mechanically obvious and transparent. If you add many different exploration methods to your game, you increase the plausibility of the world and players can accept the illusion.

Well, sure, more depth in any given area is better than less depth, but only so much can be done in any given game. Our focus was on combat and branching story, different paths, choices & consequences (and it's taken us years to get to this point). Aiming for more would have been a mistake.

You think you're the only person in the world who's looked back and realized in retrospect everything he did in a given CRPG was ultimately about getting more loot and becoming better at killing enemies?

Eh? I don't present it as some kind of revelation. I merely explained why we skipped the so-called 'environmental interaction', i.e. clicking on chests.

It doesn't matter as long as they were sufficiently immersed while playing the game.

Good to know?

I'm not claming that AoD is the bestest RPG in the world or that every true RPG fan should love it and buy 3 copies. I understand perfectly well that the game isn't for everyone, that not everyone cares about C&C, that many people wish it were a different type of games, etc.

 

[SCO]

VD, did you ever think of Arkania style (or now PE style apparently) overland map 'exploration'?

 

[Longshanks]

This doesn't really have anything directly to do with hiking simulation or open world exploration. Even the small, relatively linear environments of a Black Isle/Bioware-style RPG can be "explored" in the ways that the article describes.

Map clearing was boring in BG. Exploring for loot held no interest for me. Planescape's good exploration was of the character and lore type, not of the thing type.

Exploration is a key part of sandbox games and of dungeon crawlers. For other RPGs it's a side element, and for me not an overly interesting one. It is not strongly linked to roleplaying and is only of importance if it ties in with skills, then it's not the exploration that is key but the skill use.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, did you ever think of Arkania style (or now PE style apparently) overland map 'exploration'?

I did, but we didn't have the resources for it (time to design, implement, test; plus art). I often wished we had a couple of more designers responsible for things like traveling, economy, and such.

 

[Infinitron]

it's not the exploration that is key but the skill use.

This sentence is just weird to me. "Skill use" is a verb, it's something that you do. "Exploration" is what it achieves, it is the objective. You can't exactly separate the two.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Use can be used as a verb and as a noun - the act of using.

 

[Infinitron]

Use can be used as a verb and as a noun - the act of using.

Okay, so you get thrills down your spine just from the mechanical act of using your "detect hidden passages" skill, but you don't care at all about the fact that you have, in fact, explored and discovered a hidden passage?

That's...interesting.

 

[Weierstraß]

Gerunds!

It might be shallow, but the simple act of using a skill in some optional fashion is the game acknowledging my choices, which always feels good.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Infinitron:

We're talking about different things here: ways to interact with the environment and exploring. As I pointed out (and hopefully you're aware of), you can explore and find optional things in the game, but you can't run around the town, enter every home and inspect every chest.

Edit: For the record, obviously, discovering a hidden passage is more important than the manner in which it is discovered, but if the passage leads to nothing but a chest with some generic loot, it's not worth discovering.

 

[Infinitron]

We're talking about different things here: ways to interact with the environment and exploring.

It's not clear to me that they are all that different.

you can't run around the town, enter every home and inspect every chest.

Okay, that's #2 from the article - "Interaction – you must click on something to explore what it does / says". We can live without that.

What else from that that article can or can't you do in Age of Decadence?

 

[Commissar Draco]

For me exploration must be tied to story in good and believable way; this is why games like Skyrim felt so wrong after a while; and I am not speaking about repetitiveness of dungeons or derpy puzzles or idiocy of whole runing around old ruins when world virtually is on fire and you should instead solve all ITZ problems by yourself gimmick ... only :D But sense of closure when any more exploration seems to be futile ( Good DLCs like Dead Money for FNV would help) So I cleared some more caves done a couple of side quest and hit the uninstall.exe. I guess I am not fun of pure sand box approach... or New Beth can't into world which would be interesting for long. Anyway aside from this rant Age of Decadence made by a few men in their free time AoD is masterpiece of tight narrative and I take this approach over another bloated but shallow sand box c''RPG''. More stories less hiking Gentlemen.

 

[felipepepe]

Okay, so you get thrills down your spine just from the mechanical act of using your "detect hidden passages" skill, but you don't care at all about the fact that you have, in fact, explored and discovered a hidden passage?

Maybe I have this view due playing lots of CYOA books (often cheating a lot as well), but this:

1) Follow the North corridor.
2) Go upstairs to second floor.
3) Enter the Hallway.

You follow the North Corridor. It suddenly stops on a suspicious dead-end.

1) [detect traps] Check for a secret passage.
2) Turn back.

Is it really that different from right-clicking with your mouse on the North Corridor, seeing your PC walk there and suddenly a "secret passage detected" text popup above your head?

 

[Vault Dweller]

you can't run around the town, enter every home and inspect every chest.

Okay, that's #2 from the article - "Interaction – you must click on something to explore what it does / says". We can live without that.

What else from that that article can or can't you do in Age of Decadence?

Play the game and tell me? I mean, does this conversation have a purpose? Just wondering what you're getting at here.

 

[Infinitron]

felipepepe Sure, I can see the fun of CYOA, but it's not clear to me that that is what Vault Dweller thought he was making.

Play the game and tell me? I mean, does this conversation have a purpose? Just wondering what you're getting at here.

For starters, I'm obviously trying to get you to admit that your "exploration = chest clicking" thing that you keep repeating is a strawman.

 

[felipepepe]

felipepepe Sure, I can see the fun of CYOA, but it's not clear to me that that is what Vault Dweller thought he was making.

Perhaps not while derping in town, but while invading the palace with a thief I thought I was playing the perfect computer adaptation of a CYOA.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Play the game and tell me? I mean, does this conversation have a purpose? Just wondering what you're getting at here.

For starters, I'm obviously trying to get you to admit that your "exploration = chest clicking" thing that you keep repeating is a strawman.

Well, let's start again then.

First, there is exploration in the game. You can explore the town and find optional content ('situations' and items, like the artefact in the tower's cellar). So, since exploration (or the basic form of it) IS in the game, I thought it was clear that we aren't talking about the act of exploring and discovering new things, but the manner in which it's done.

When the demo was released one of the main complaints was that the environmental interaction, often described as exploration, was very limited, which is true. For example, when you enter the tower, a text-adventure sequence is triggered and takes it from there. *You* don't actually go to the cellar, *you* don't click on the drain, *you* don't look for the hidden switch. The text adventure does it all for you, by checking your skills and abilities. That's what I meant when I said that we're talking about two different things here and that's what I referred to when I said that in many RPGs exploration (as in environmental interaction) is looking for chests you can click on.