Thief fan missions and campaigns

[Dev_Anj]

It's even more relevant in game design, I think. You can just ignore a few badly written lines or some awkward dialogue in a story, as long as the rest of it is good. But in a game, a section that just utterly sucks or is frustrating as fuck can break the whole experience and discourage replays. "I enjoyed that mission overall, but UGH, that one puzzle was SO SHIT, I don't wanna go through that ever again!" If I'm a mission author, and create a puzzle that is so frustrating nobody likes it, I would want to be told about that so I can think about how to improve that part of my game design.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that some poorly written paragraphs or poorly paced scenes, in a book or film can affect the enjoyment of the consumer harshly, as they can get bored or annoyed with it during those parts, and just stop reading or watching. Moreover, those parts can leave a bad taste, which can prevent them from enjoying the rest of the book or film properly, regardless of how well done it is.

I do agree with the rest of your post, and I hope you get into Dark Mod mission making soon.

So just to keep this thread alive, does anyone here know of any good remake type missions for either Thief: Gold or Thief 2? I have not played many of those but I've heard they aren't good in general.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Dev_Anj Just voicing my opinion here, but a badly written paragraph or sentence in a novel, or a badly written (and acted out) scene in a film, can and cannot affect the enjoyment of the consumer as much as a badly written section in a game willl. At the end of the day, it's all based on personal opinion. But to take it further to what I believe is close to the truth? The two prior examples can't compare. You read a bad paragraph in a novel, it will have X effect. You watch a bad scene in a film, it's likely to have X(x2) the effect, just to toss a number out there.

But a badly written section of a game? Games are different because the reader is A PART of the story, he's a willing participant. That makes the story PERSONAL, can you bring a mathematical formula to a personal experience? That's where it all goes to pot.

So...no. Don't try to compare.

As for your query...I'll try to get back to you once I'm sober.

 

[Dev_Anj]

But a badly written section of a game? Games are different because the reader is A PART of the story, he's a willing participant. That makes the story PERSONAL, can you bring a mathematical formula to a personal experience? That's where it all goes to pot.

I'm sure that you can get a personal experience from a book or film too, but I see your point. Video games generally require the consumer to be more involved than other entertainment mediums, as they control something or the other that influences how it plays out. They are also a very complex medium, moreso than any other, although they haven't been explored in depth yet. My point was not that video games can directly be compared to other mediums, more like bad moments in other mediums can be off putting too.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

True. At the end of the day, it's a question of involvement.

 

[JarlFrank]

The thing with games is that if you have a piece of horrible game design in there, it can actively prevent the player from progressing unless he does something very frustrating or incredibly boring. There's a difference between reading or watching a shit scene and going "eh, this is shit... whatever, let's give the rest of the book/movie a chance" and playing a game with an incredibly frustrating pixel-searching switch hunt (which some FM authors love to implement for some reason) where you read tips in the forums, even walkthroughs, and still can't find the switch because it is tiny and hidden behind a bed in such an angle you can't even see it and have to randomly frob around until you get lucky. That's the point where you just think to yourself, "Well, fuck this shit" and stop playing.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The thing with games is that if you have a piece of horrible game design in there, it can actively prevent the player from progressing unless he does something very frustrating or incredibly boring. There's a difference between reading or watching a shit scene and going "eh, this is shit... whatever, let's give the rest of the book/movie a chance" and playing a game with an incredibly frustrating pixel-searching switch hunt (which some FM authors love to implement for some reason) where you read tips in the forums, even walkthroughs, and still can't find the switch because it is tiny and hidden behind a bed in such an angle you can't even see it and have to randomly frob around until you get lucky. That's the point where you just think to yourself, "Well, fuck this shit" and stop playing.

This. At least shit cutscenes can (normally) be skipped.

On that note, one example I noted recently was watching a LP of a Dark Mod mission about robbing a bank. (See the Dark Mod thread.) There are some really bizarre level design decisions in there, like having to "drop off" the loot from the bank vault out a window. Said window is not only on the opposite end of the building, but also 2 stories up. Even by using a secret passage the trek with 10 or so physics items will kill any enjoyment from the mission. The author then offers an "alternate drop off site" in the item purchase menu which is literally a stone's drop away from the vault, and even recommends to players to purchase the alternate drop off site. Was it too hard to just have one drop-off point that wasn't on the other side of the map?

Then there's the point about the secret compartment in the bank manager's office: The switch is invisible. The player is just supposed to frob wildly everywhere in the office until he stumbles upon the switch.

Why do this?

 

[JarlFrank]

I like to think these people are just beginners learning the ropes and trying out stuff with the engine like "how could I place an alternate dropoff point that is purchasable?" and "oh, cool, I can make invisible switches in this engine, let's do this!"

But then many missions with shit design like that have excellent architecture, so I dunno.

 

[Melan]

Speaking of questionable design: I have recently replayed Rowena's Curse, and while it is beautifully realised FM with an excellent story that unfolds gradually through a mostly sensible keyhunt, some of the gameplay is completely bonkers.

• First, there are tons of switches, hidden switches and hidden mini-switches. Most of these open up secret loot stashes, but some are required to complete the mission. Now finding small, well-hidden switches is already hard enough if you know the specific place you should be looking; but here, we are talking about a complicated multi-level mansion and its side buildings and its cellars. Most items you need to progress are sensibly placed, and you know the general area, but there are a few exceptions (like an item that functions as a switch... but has a very, very low frob distance to make this challenging).
• Lit and unlit areas are unreliable, since many lights have a larger radius then it seems. This is a newbie technical mistake in Dromed (basically, it happens if you are using light brushes instead of invisible light objects, and you shouldn't be doing it). Okay, it was Lady Rowena's first mission... except this is the updated and revised third version.
• Add to this that there are areas where you have to pass through a chokepoint, both sides of which are lit up by bright, non-extinguishable light sources. It does not help that they are in high-traffic areas, and "blind", you can't see if anyone is coming. And with the small army of guards on the premises, they will be coming or going, usually two or four of them on overlapping patrol routes.
• Did I mention there were too many AI? There were too many AI.

So, I dunno. Lovely mission, with one of the best basic plots, and it was mostly great fun - except where I tried sneaking before knocking out half the household to thin them out a little, because it is immensely frustrating.

 

[JarlFrank]

Rowena's Curse is one of my favourite mission... but it's practically unghostable and you have to go the knockout route.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

At least she took the time to name every guard, scullery maid and hobnob in the place.

 

[Dev_Anj]

... and playing a game with an incredibly frustrating pixel-searching switch hunt (which some FM authors love to implement for some reason) where you read tips in the forums, even walkthroughs, and still can't find the switch because it is tiny and hidden behind a bed in such an angle you can't even see it and have to randomly frob around until you get lucky.

To be honest, this is something I find frustrating with the loot requirement of some Thief: Gold's original missions on Expert. There are times when you would have completed the objectives and would have stolen a lot of loot, and then when you try to leave and can't, you check the objectives and see that you need to collect like 50 gold or something. This then makes you search around the level again and becomes frustrating as you have to pixel hunt through a most likely empty and well traversed level to get a bunch of coins or a golden goblet lying somewhere. It also makes for amusing situations when Garrett steals pretty much most of a location's wealth, but still insists on gathering some random stacks of coins that are behind beds or under tables or what have you. That's pretty much the reason why I replay Thief: Gold's missions on either Normal or Hard, though I do try Expert every so often.

On that note, one example I noted recently was watching a LP of a Dark Mod mission about robbing a bank. (See the Dark Mod thread.) There are some really bizarre level design decisions in there, like having to "drop off" the loot from the bank vault out a window. Said window is not only on the opposite end of the building, but also 2 stories up. Even by using a secret passage the trek with 10 or so physics items will kill any enjoyment from the mission. The author then offers an "alternate drop off site" in the item purchase menu which is literally a stone's drop away from the vault, and even recommends to players to purchase the alternate drop off site. Was it too hard to just have one drop-off point that wasn't on the other side of the map?

Then there's the point about the secret compartment in the bank manager's office: The switch is invisible. The player is just supposed to frob wildly everywhere in the office until he stumbles upon the switch.

Why do this?

To be fair, that mission is one of Airship Ballet's earlier missions, and she pretty much admitted to rushing it out. She also told that the mission had problems and could use work. Here's her comment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z09HjGVjvBo&google_comment_id=z134fj0jzybhhbxfw22dylwzkvakydaus

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed yourself! You should have posted in the forum thread: unformatted Youtube walls of text are a pain to read. I agree with the vast majority of your points: they weren't problems in my original imagining of the map but engine limitations meant I had to come up with workarounds.

The gold crates being moved one by one is one example, but actually because they are targeted by the chain of entities that teleport the stacked models, give you loot and teleport your held version by name. The first crate is called goldcrate1, the second goldcrate2 and so on, meaning that I couldn't have them appear piled up on the cart because putting the fourth one in first would have it floating at the back rather than stacked neatly. That's why the bags are fine but the crates aren't: they don't stack. I didn't want to just have the boxes vanish either, so that was a compromise.

The alternate loot drop is essential, really. In the inspirational PAYDAY mission, you end up having to walk through the entire mission while being shot at if you neglect to buy an alternative loot drop, and it's far bigger than this. I wanted to make the favor system properly useful in some regards, so I made the mission a real pain to 100% without the loot drop and some things impossible to find without hints.

I've updated the manager's safe note since, making it clear that it's somewhere on the dullest painting in the room. I still didn't want to make the button easily visible because it makes little sense for it to be in plain view. It's still a cruel place to put it, but it's intentional and isn't anywhere near as evil as it could be.

With regards to difficulty, it really killed me to make the map easier than I wanted but, as you said, it's intended to be the first of many in a campaign, and as such small and simple. To be honest it began as a tech demo for the favor shop but I'd been itching to make a bank heist too and so put it to good use in a tiny one I built in a fortnight. I made that briefing about five minutes before release too, hence the thoroughly mediocre writing. The second one is being worked on and is far more difficult already. By the final mission I imagine a lot of people will be complaining about the difficulty of it rather than the lack thereof.

You mentioned that the loot is meaningless, which is true for the time being but come the second mission you'll find each 1000 loot being translated into one favor for the second mission. Considering that they change the mission in major ways, it may be that the loot ends up more useful than in Thiaf, here's hoping. I may have missed a few points but there were a fair few to try and remember, so good job on putting out some commentary with proper discussion in it!

• Did I mention there were too many AI? There were too many AI.

So, I dunno. Lovely mission, with one of the best basic plots, and it was mostly great fun - except where I tried sneaking before knocking out half the household to thin them out a little, because it is immensely frustrating.

I haven't played Rowena's Curse, but this is one thing I don't like in stealth games. If you put in too many AI, it often leads to complications, like needing to keep track of many people at once, which becomes hard. Then there are also much less chances to actually try and utilize distraction tools and the like, since you're more likely to alert guards and cause a big mess. It also makes getting back to stealth much harder, as once you're spotted, you probably can't shake off multiple guards well. If it's a few guards, then you can reasonably try to hide somewhere and try to separate them out using tools or general distraction techniques. This makes a mission or game interesting to play through, even if you slip sometimes. Now putting too many AI often just leads to comical moments where they will file behind you in a line, and you pretty much just run for the rest of the level.

Rowena's Curse is one of my favourite mission... but it's practically unghostable and you have to go the knockout route.

Eh... I don't think a good stealth mission or game should be measured by whether it provides opportunities to leave enemies unharmed or not, more upon how well the systems work in the levels, how flexible the systems are, whether they let you read enemies properly or not etc. Still, I can understand why people would like ghosting.

Also Unkillable Cat, you haven't come up with a list of good remake missions. Bad!

 

[Unkillable Cat]

To be fair, that mission is one of Airship Ballet's earlier missions, and she pretty much admitted to rushing it out. She also told that the mission had problems and could use work.

Great, a dev that actually takes part in 2-way communication, lists her sources/inspirations and is not afraid to admit mistakes. This is good, this is how it should be.

(Personally I think that caution should be used in using modern AAA games as "inspiration" for Thief/Dark Mod missions, as it can lead to situations like these.)

Also Unkillable Cat, you haven't come up with a list of good remake missions. Bad!

Well, start by explaining exactly what a "remake mission" is. It's a rather wide description.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Well, start by explaining exactly what a "remake mission" is. It's a rather wide description.

A fan mission that uses one or more of the original missions as a base, but changes things up. You have any idea of such missions that are good?

 

[Tzaero]

A fan mission that uses one or more of the original missions as a base, but changes things up. You have any idea of such missions that are good?

Im pretty sure there was a competitiion on ttlg within the last two years that had this. Can't remember names though.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Ah, yes, I know a few...oh, GOOD ones? That...makes it more tricky. FM author veteran darthslair seems to have made that his forté, and I've tried a few of his. "Cataclysmic Revelations" remakes The Haunted Cathredal, Return to the Cathredal and The Maw. I don't really recommend that pack, but at least it fits your criteria.

"Lord Bafford's Secret" is another one of his, at least that one has more gameplay attached. It's a remake of the first mission from the first Thief, and for the longest time you may not see anything really new, but if you stay with it long enough and find all the keys, you're gonna see some serious shit interesting stuff.

"The Skull of St. Yora" is a remake of Return to the Cathredal, but with a twist - the Mechanists have fixed up the place! No more Undead, cobwebs and creepy things...unless you count the Mechanists, of course.

Wait! Does a remake of an FM count? An old FM called "The Monastery of St. Fera" was taken through the wringer and remade into "The Drymian Codex". THAT is a "Must-play" FM. For the best effect, play the original first, then the Drymian Codex.

Along those lines, "Complicated Cargo" combines Life of the Party with "A Theft in High Towne".

That should get you started.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Im pretty sure there was a competitiion on ttlg within the last two years that had this. Can't remember names though.

It was called the "Reloaded" contest, and when I think of it I may be naming one or two in my previous post.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Ah, yes, I know a few...oh, GOOD ones? That...makes it more tricky. FM author veteran darthslair seems to have made that his forté, and I've tried a few of his. "Cataclysmic Revelations" remakes The Haunted Cathredal, Return to the Cathredal and The Maw. I don't really recommend that pack, but at least it fits your criteria.

"Lord Bafford's Secret" is another one of his, at least that one has more gameplay attached. It's a remake of the first mission from the first Thief, and for the longest time you may not see anything really new, but if you stay with it long enough and find all the keys, you're gonna see some serious shit interesting stuff.

"The Skull of St. Yora" is a remake of Return to the Cathredal, but with a twist - the Mechanists have fixed up the place! No more Undead, cobwebs and creepy things...unless you count the Mechanists, of course.

Wait! Does a remake of an FM count? An old FM called "The Monastery of St. Fera" was taken through the wringer and remade into "The Drymian Codex". THAT is a "Must-play" FM. For the best effect, play the original first, then the Drymian Codex.

Along those lines, "Complicated Cargo" combines Life of the Party with "A Theft in High Towne".

That should get you started.

Thanks a lot Unkillable Cat! I don't have Thief 2 right now, so couldn't play most of the missions you mentioned, but I did open up "The Monastery of St. Fera". It was a bit buggy, as it showed up the objectives for the Thieves' Guild mission for me and every time I loaded a save made in the mission, it put me in a weird place in the Thieves' Guild map. Anyway, I played it without saves for a while, then opened it in Dromed to explore the rest of the level. It feels a lot like a rough first build of a level, lot of empty rooms, many guards patrolling, very little shadow, lots of backtracking, and the like. I do see the potential in the level though, especially with the whole idea of stealing relics from a crypt under a monastery. I did watch a bit of "The Drymian Codex" covered by Fen Phoenix, and it did look interesting, although some of the architecture still looked a little simplistic. I'll try and check it along with the other missions though.

 

[Melan]

The best remake missions are:
Lorgan's Web: Assassins, remade into a full-fledged city mission with some interesting mechanical touches. A lot of fun breaking and entering, challenging AI patrols, and a new mansion to rob instead of Ramirez's place.
Lord Fishkill's Curse: Life of the Party with an odd premise. This one has a few questionable elements lifted from Discworld, but otherwise, it is good.

Lady Rowena's current project is a remake of various Thief and Thief2 missions, and seems to be back on track after a long break from Thief after her husband died.

 

[Dev_Anj]

The best remake missions are:
Lady Rowena's current project is a remake of various Thief and Thief2 missions, and seems to be back on track after a long break from Thief after her husband died.

Yup, I read about it in TTLG. The strangest thing about it is that the screenshots from her mission are almost at the level of Keeper of Infinity, for instance while they were put up in 2010. You know, before New Dark v 1.22 came out.

Oh, and the actual thread is here, for those interested: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132299&page=5

 

[Dev_Anj]

So, what are the opinions here about The Last Lighthouse Keeper? I just started watching an lp of it, and it looks interesting, with its rough hewn looks and the concept of trying to solve a murder while stealing stuff.

 

[Icewater]

Why don't you try, er, playing it?

 

[Dev_Anj]

Don't have Thief 2, can't play it.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Don't have Thief 2, can't play it.

Gog and steam sell it for a very low price, and shame on you for not buying it in the last sales.

 

[Icewater]

Don't have Thief 2, can't play it.

pirate bay store

 

[JarlFrank]

There is no excuse for not having a copy of Thief and Thief 2, be it the original boxed release, from GoG or Steam, or pirated. None!

Also, started playing Kingsbridge. My first impression of it is pretty good, but holy shit, the author could have made the snow effect a little more subtle. It looks like a snowstorm outside, and I often have to strain my eyes to make out details on roofs when looking for rope-arrow-able surfaces, because, holy shit, THE ENTIRE SCREEN IS SNOW