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Theseus: Journey to Athens - C&C RPG made in GMS 2

AdolfSatan

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I like the idea and your commitment to the setting. Would love to play a demo when it's available. Just, please get rid of that awfully fucked up perspective.
 

Agesilaus

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I like the idea and your commitment to the setting. Would love to play a demo when it's available. Just, please get rid of that awfully fucked up perspective.

The perspective shown in the new artwork, or in the old demo? If you are referring to the new artwork, what specifically do you dislike? I will pass along your input to the artist, and I also believe she posts here sometimes. I would add that the perspective is only used for 1/3rd of the game; combat is directly top down with character icons on a grid (for example, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup). The remainder of the game is choose-your-own-adventure scenes that consist of photographs or sketches accompanied by text.

There were actually 3 mockup perspectives; I can post the other two when I get home. I like the perspective I posted, but then again I think Ultima 7 perspective is good.
 

AdolfSatan

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In the new artwork. For one, I think the top-down pov flattens too much the structures, which takes away the amazement from just looking at how incredibly tall those buildings were.

The horses, background, and character are incoherent with regards to each other.
Columns and walls are forming some sort of impossible angle. Either you should be able to see their sides with that slight inclination they have, or straight down from a vertical point of view as the perfectly round/rectangular cuts show, but never both. Also, why are the stairs so flat?
On that same note, the character shows a much more pronounced angle, while the horses appear from a much more top-down perspective.

The horses themselves, the background, and the work on the tiling all look fantastic though.

Bonus pointillism: beautiful as they are, the main purpose of columns is that of structural support. The placement of those in that building makes no sense at all.
 

Agesilaus

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In the new artwork. For one, I think the top-down pov flattens too much the structures, which takes away the amazement from just looking at how incredibly tall those buildings were.

The horses, background, and character are incoherent with regards to each other.
Columns and walls are forming some sort of impossible angle. Either you should be able to see their sides with that slight inclination they have, or straight down from a vertical point of view as the perfectly round/rectangular cuts show, but never both. Also, why are the stairs so flat?
On that same note, the character shows a much more pronounced angle, while the horses appear from a much more top-down perspective.

The horses themselves, the background, and the work on the tiling all look fantastic though.

Bonus pointillism: beautiful as they are, the main purpose of columns is that of structural support. The placement of those in that building makes no sense at all.


There were a few other perspectives we were discussing:

top down
kZ16lhp.png

more of an angle
0pkNDgc.png

Although, rereading your post, I get the sense that the fundamental issue is internal consistency. The need for the characters, objects, and underlying background to share the same angle. I heard the same from another person, too. I'll talk with the artist and see what's possible; for me I want to see the characters from side-on. I really, really dislike when the angle only allows you to see the tops of the shoulders and head.

That desire for a detailed character image extends to the combat engine. I agree with you that the horses look really good; I'm pleased with how all the characters look in general. Here's how the combat engine looks right now, although keep in mind that the artwork is a placeholder:

combat.jpg


It's top down, but the characters are seen from the side view and just slide from square to square (no detailed animation).



As for the columns, they are no longer in a fixed location, so I can easily move them to a better spot. Basically, anything that Theseus can walk behind is an object. So I drag and drop them on the map, and have some code that makes them transparent.
 
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AdolfSatan

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Top-down would be a waste of resources since there's no way anyway will be able to appreciate the work put into the art.

Angled works much better, but then again, there's still something awkward about it. Why are the walls on the side straight? If the southernmost wall is closer to me than its opposite, why are both the same size? Every other element in the scene is properly rendered.
 

agentorange

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I don't see any problem with the perspective in itself. It's a sort of orthographic perspective that's popular enough to be used in games like early Final Fantasy, Pokemon, Zelda and quite a lot of JRPGs. I think anyone who looks at that and finds it to be incoherent or impossible to wrap their head around would be in the far minority. Side-on characters should be kept because the purpose is to show detail. The fact is that people will very quickly acclimate to just about any perspective so long as it's all kept mostly consistent throughout the game.


FFIV1.png
OFY7q1R.jpg
I1jAr7x.png
 

Agesilaus

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Top-down would be a waste of resources since there's no way anyway will be able to appreciate the work put into the art.

Angled works much better, but then again, there's still something awkward about it. Why are the walls on the side straight? If the southernmost wall is closer to me than its opposite, why are both the same size? Every other element in the scene is properly rendered.

I think I understand; because the perspective-point is in theory closer to the lower wall, it should appear greater? I understand what you're saying now. Why wouldn't the walls on the side be straight, though?

Anyway, I initially thought you were calling for isometric view, and the artistic was kind enough to make an isometric mock-up:

1.jpg


What are people's thoughts on this angle? I personally don't want to use it in this game, but I think it looks very attractive. I have plans to make a game set in the Classical period after this one, and I would want to use isometric graphics like this. It requires different movement and collisions code, different camera code, and different map size.
 

vlzvl

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Athens
Honestly, i like the previous angled version more, mostly because its familiar and also shows a lot more content and there will be no need for "transparent" walls when you are inside a temple or behind of it. But this is just my personal opinion and perhaps wrong.
I grown with games such as FF Mystic Quest so i am a lot more familiar with that top-down angled perspective.
For me it's easy to implement, all art is shown (not transparency tricks), all content is shown and for some weird reason i find it a lot more atmospheric against isometric and i would go for that and see what happens.
Perhaps it has to do with me disliking full 3D in such games and prefer pseudo-3D. Perhaps it needs a lot more content on screen before deciding.
 

Agesilaus

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Honestly, i like the previous angled version more, mostly because its familiar and also shows a lot more content and there will be no need for "transparent" walls when you are inside a temple or behind of it. But this is just my personal opinion and perhaps wrong.
I grown with games such as FF Mystic Quest so i am a lot more familiar with that top-down angled perspective.
For me it's easy to implement, all art is shown (not transparency tricks), all content is shown and for some weird reason i find it a lot more atmospheric against isometric and i would go for that and see what happens.
Perhaps it has to do with me disliking full 3D in such games and prefer pseudo-3D. Perhaps it needs a lot more content on screen before deciding.

Thanks; it is definitely easier to implement and doesn't require much in the way of graphics transparency. There's still a little bit, though; when Theseus walks through the doorway, the wall becomes transparent. Same for when Theseus walks behind the columns. I could just make it so everything is solid, and the player character will be obscured when he walks behind things, assuming people think that's a better approach.

At this point I'm pretty certain that I'm not using the isometric for this game, but I am a big U7/Teudogar fan and want to use it in the future. Although the mock-up looks closer to a full 3d thing, like AoD, which I also enjoyed a lot.
 

vlzvl

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There's still a little bit, though; when Theseus walks through the doorway, the wall becomes transparent. Same for when Theseus walks behind the columns.

Of course, but it will be a lot less confusing, especially against a lot of creatures you battle with in a closed temple full of columns :)
Well, i am also a devoted fan of the first two X-COMs (isometric) and loved that view. But the graphics were far simpler.
Baldur's gate did a outstanding job in such views but i think the graphics were 2D and the art was top-notch.
In full-3D i believe its a big challenge to achieve that consistency.
 

AdolfSatan

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I think I understand; because the perspective-point is in theory closer to the lower wall, it should appear greater? I understand what you're saying now. Why wouldn't the walls on the side be straight, though?
Because if the closer wall looks bigger, and the further away one smaller, unless there's some angle on the side-walls that connect them, they'll be pointing nowhere.

I know the angle isn't exactly the same, I made it just to better portray what I mean.
You'll have to excuse the shitty execution, I'm using a thumb trackball.


Just to clarify myself, I'm not saying the angled screen you posted earlier is wrong, since it's being rendered by a machine anyways. It's simply that it gives me the impression of lacking depth.

I love isometric, and that screenshot looks great! But if you're going for it, make it 3D rendered with 2D touch-ups on it like the classics.
 
Last edited:

agris

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Honestly, i like the previous angled version more, mostly because its familiar and also shows a lot more content and there will be no need for "transparent" walls when you are inside a temple or behind of it. But this is just my personal opinion and perhaps wrong.
I grown with games such as FF Mystic Quest so i am a lot more familiar with that top-down angled perspective.
For me it's easy to implement, all art is shown (not transparency tricks), all content is shown and for some weird reason i find it a lot more atmospheric against isometric and i would go for that and see what happens.
Perhaps it has to do with me disliking full 3D in such games and prefer pseudo-3D. Perhaps it needs a lot more content on screen before deciding.

Thanks; it is definitely easier to implement and doesn't require much in the way of graphics transparency. There's still a little bit, though; when Theseus walks through the doorway, the wall becomes transparent. Same for when Theseus walks behind the columns. I could just make it so everything is solid, and the player character will be obscured when he walks behind things, assuming people think that's a better approach.

At this point I'm pretty certain that I'm not using the isometric for this game, but I am a big U7/Teudogar fan and want to use it in the future. Although the mock-up looks closer to a full 3d thing, like AoD, which I also enjoyed a lot.
Look at cavalier-oblique perspective, it's similar to isometric but makes certain aspects easier, such as depth being the same on the X and Y plane. Tim Cain mentioned this perspective made a lot of the Fallout 1 art and movement calculations much easier than true isometric.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Honestly, i like the previous angled version more, mostly because its familiar and also shows a lot more content and there will be no need for "transparent" walls when you are inside a temple or behind of it. But this is just my personal opinion and perhaps wrong.
I grown with games such as FF Mystic Quest so i am a lot more familiar with that top-down angled perspective.
For me it's easy to implement, all art is shown (not transparency tricks), all content is shown and for some weird reason i find it a lot more atmospheric against isometric and i would go for that and see what happens.
Perhaps it has to do with me disliking full 3D in such games and prefer pseudo-3D. Perhaps it needs a lot more content on screen before deciding.

Thanks; it is definitely easier to implement and doesn't require much in the way of graphics transparency. There's still a little bit, though; when Theseus walks through the doorway, the wall becomes transparent. Same for when Theseus walks behind the columns. I could just make it so everything is solid, and the player character will be obscured when he walks behind things, assuming people think that's a better approach.

At this point I'm pretty certain that I'm not using the isometric for this game, but I am a big U7/Teudogar fan and want to use it in the future. Although the mock-up looks closer to a full 3d thing, like AoD, which I also enjoyed a lot.
Look at cavalier-oblique perspective, it's similar to isometric but makes certain aspects easier, such as depth being the same on the X and Y plane. Tim Cain mentioned this perspective made a lot of the Fallout 1 art and movement calculations much easier than true isometric.

Interesting, I clearly need to do more reading about isometric for my next game. Ultimately, I want really attractive character and item art, and I usually like to view it from some type of isometric angle, or as a flat object like dungeon crawl. Battle brothers has a really attractive presentation in battle, too, for the characters.

In other news, the recent release of battletech has not been kind to the development of this game. The last few days have been spent shooting robots when I'm not at work. It's not the end of the world, though, as I'm waiting on art assets before I rewrite descriptive text anyway.

Once the final copy of the Troezen assets arrive, I'll replace the draft images and make a new video. It should feature at least one battle, depending on how my attempt to fix enemy pathfinding AI goes.
 
Last edited:

Agesilaus

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Troezen exploration-level backgrounds are pretty much done, absent some polish, 6 in total. Here's a cut-away of the start location:

Theseus_at_home.jpg


Next step: get the character assets and delete the programmer art that I'm using!


In terms of story line, all the bandits from Epidauros to Athens have been implemented:

Periphetes
Sinis (with daughter you can abduct/marry as per Plutarch)
Phaea and the Crommyonian Sow
Sciron and his pet tortoise
Kerkyon
Prokroustes

I need to implement the Bull of Marathon, and the branching paths through Epidauros, but right now you can literally play the game from Troezen to Athens as long as you avoid most of the combat.

Speaking of combat, right now there are two party members implemented: Connidas (Theseus' tutor) and Boutes (one of the Pallantides). I am going to put Sinis' daughter (Perigune) as the third and possibly final party member. Maybe I can include Triton but I don't think it's realistic to have him slithering along next to you from Epidauros to Athens; possibly he will just show up for some combat or something, right now he's an antogonist that you can wrestle with if you want to pretend to be Herakles. EDIT: Actually I forgot Ardalos, he is already a functional party member in combat but I just haven't written the dialogue for him joining you.
 
Last edited:

Agesilaus

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Just received another batch of art assets. I'm especially blown away by the quality of the portraits; they're like some perfect combination of modern video game and ancient pottery:


Agora.jpg


Almost every person in Troezen has a character image and portrait. The game is getting close to having a complete, final set of art assets for the first town.


The text is a little too pixellated in game; Any suggestions for a good, higher resolution font?
 

Ninjerk

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Jul 10, 2013
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Just received another batch of art assets. I'm especially blown away by the quality of the portraits; they're like some perfect combination of modern video game and ancient pottery:


Agora.jpg


Almost every person in Troezen has a character image and portrait. The game is getting close to having a complete, final set of art assets for the first town.


The text is a little too pixellated in game; Any suggestions for a good, higher resolution font?
What projection did you end up going with? This one looks unusual (but not bad).
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Just received another batch of art assets. I'm especially blown away by the quality of the portraits; they're like some perfect combination of modern video game and ancient pottery:


Agora.jpg


Almost every person in Troezen has a character image and portrait. The game is getting close to having a complete, final set of art assets for the first town.


The text is a little too pixellated in game; Any suggestions for a good, higher resolution font?
What projection did you end up going with? This one looks unusual (but not bad).

I'm not sure what this projection is called, but it is ~20 degrees and it is created in 3d so everything is geometrically correct. It's the same style as the original image that kicked off the discussion. I brought the comments to the artist's attention, who made a variety of other mockups including the isometric shot that was shown above. For my own part I concluded that I am satisfied as long as the backgrounds are of a consistent style and geometrically correct, and the character images are side-on with a lot of detail.

The character images are created separately from the rest of the shot. I think this shows, and it in part answers one of my fears: I don't want the NPC graphics to fade into the general background. They don't have much animation, so they need to stand out to the player. The only other things you directly interact with in the adventure screen are the scene-exits (currently green boxes) and some shimmering light (indicating something that you can examine; generally used to share a bit of information about the ancient world).
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Top-down would be a waste of resources since there's no way anyway will be able to appreciate the work put into the art.

Angled works much better, but then again, there's still something awkward about it. Why are the walls on the side straight? If the southernmost wall is closer to me than its opposite, why are both the same size? Every other element in the scene is properly rendered.

I think I understand; because the perspective-point is in theory closer to the lower wall, it should appear greater? I understand what you're saying now. Why wouldn't the walls on the side be straight, though?

Anyway, I initially thought you were calling for isometric view, and the artistic was kind enough to make an isometric mock-up:

1.jpg


What are people's thoughts on this angle? I personally don't want to use it in this game, but I think it looks very attractive. I have plans to make a game set in the Classical period after this one, and I would want to use isometric graphics like this. It requires different movement and collisions code, different camera code, and different map size.

This is very sexy and I would buy a game that looked like this.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also yes, the current artstyle is very sexy too. I like where this is going. Please proceed. I am observing with interest.
 

Agesilaus

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Status update:

The artist has been doing great work. I now have almost all the visual assets for the first town, I am just waiting on the player character image files.

Characters all have a short animation to show that the player can interact with them:

PX0rYeW.gif


Inventory items have been updated with new graphics, too:

dagger1.png


Finally, I also have the 64x64 tbs combat graphics, here are a few I pieced together in a single png file:

battle.jpg


While playing through the game just now, I realised that I need to make an animation of shimmering light. The dimensions need to be around 64x64. Currently, the entrance/exits for each location are represented by a green box, which is an ugly placeholder.

Last month I pieced together a playable demo of the first town for the people who are working on the audio assets. I have a lot of confidence that they'll produce something great, and with the new visual assets I can continue to polish the demo and make something worth recording in a youtube video.

Bonus portrait of Connidas, Theseus' childhood tutor:

connidas.png
 

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