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There are people so consumed by hatred of JRPGs that they fail to appreciate FF VI

Jacob

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Steampunk is gay. Final Fantasy VI is final fantasy, not steampunk. Some steam engines in its setting, yes, but mostly it's about magic and magical creatures who uses magic.

Fuck steampunk.
 

fantadomat

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To be honest here Japan have some good writers and interesting ideas.But sadly the mechanics and the fact that the games are made for PS kills it for me. There is far too much grind and repetition,also the level design is bad/illogical for most games. JRPGs feel like copy paste to me.
 

Hobo Elf

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I still fail to see how the complaints above don't apply to western devs as well as those are all universal problems. Level design has declined everywhere since the 90's. Western games pad themselves with repetitive and grindy "side quests" (which are more like side activities than quests), usually there only being 3-4 different kinds of activities that are just repeated ad nauseam. Witcher 3 is one of the grossest recent examples of this. When you open the map you'll be greeted with hundreds of PoIs, none of them actually being interesting since most of them are just banal nekker nests or hidden chests. Exploration becomes a tedious check list, and not actually exploration at all since you're taken by hand to everywhere you need to go.
 

Hyperion

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Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems
This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.
It hasn't

* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
 

Nathir

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Amusing trick here. Make a thread in the jrpg forum and cut my parrots from another thread,and watch the retard rating rain. I can even feel the :butthurt: here.

> Make retarded post.
> Gets told by everyone how stupid it is.
> ''Teehee, I sure did trigger everyone by my right opinion, which is only solidified by the ''retard ratings''. #butthurt, amirite??''
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh.

Why argue the obvious
 

Jacob

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Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems
This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.
It hasn't

* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
What? I thought most JRPG fans here agree that JRPG are simplified cRPG at its core. And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?
 

Hobo Elf

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Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems
This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.
It hasn't

* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
What? I thought most JRPG fans here agree that JRPG are simplified cRPG at its core. And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?

What do you mean by simplified? Even the best western dungeon crawlers don't come close to having as complex and deep combat systems and character + party building as Etrian Odyssey or Shin Megami Tensei. jRPGs are notorious for having insanely detailed and gamey mechanics.
 

Jacob

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Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems
This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.
It hasn't

* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
What? I thought most JRPG fans here agree that JRPG are simplified cRPG at its core. And why are you talking about 3D beat em ups?

What do you mean by simplified? Even the best western dungeon crawlers don't come close to having as complex and deep combat systems and character + party building as Etrian Odyssey or Shin Megami Tensei. jRPGs are notorious for having insanely detailed and gamey mechanics.
Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).

Their weapon and upgrade systems are somehow better than some CRPGs. Looking at you, Divinity: Original Sin.
It's a strange comparison but I actually agree with this... It would be good if new weapons and upgrades are more than just increased number but different usage.
 

Hobo Elf

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Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).

Calling SMT and EO Wizardry clones doesn't do them or Wizardry justice. Besides, apart from being FPP dungeon crawlers, the gameplay focus of these titles are on different things and play they very differently. EO is purely combat, SMT is almost purely combat with some focus on the dungeons and Wizardry is the most balanced of them all where the dungeon crawling itself is just as important as the combat. EO has pretty poor dungeon crawling because the dungeons are simple and lack real puzzles, but the combat is a lot deeper than in Wiz, for example. It doesn't make much sense to try and hand wave jRPGs as simplified cRPGs when they have done many things better and/or with more depth and complexity.
 

Jacob

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Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).

Calling SMT and EO Wizardry clones doesn't do them or Wizardry justice. Besides, apart from being FPP dungeon crawlers, the gameplay focus of these titles are on different things and play they very differently. EO is purely combat, SMT is almost purely combat with some focus on the dungeons and Wizardry is the most balanced of them all where the dungeon crawling itself is just as important as the combat. EO has pretty poor dungeon crawling because the dungeons are simple and lack real puzzles, but the combat is a lot deeper than in Wiz, for example. It doesn't make much sense to try and hand wave jRPGs as simplified cRPGs when they have done many things better and/or with more depth and complexity.
What I mean simplified is that it cuts down many of the non-combat elements, which SMT game is, compared to most cRPGs out there. And to be honest SMT is a bad example of an average JRPG, just as Fallout is a bad example of a average cRPG. Calling it "simplified" was never meant to be a "hand waving" (tbh I had to google that, it seems to have a pejorative meaning), it really means that JRPG has a more focused gameplay elements. And when that aspect fails, they have nothing to save themselves, at least in my judgement. I think this focus is also why they have limited appeal to cRPG fans. (Beside anime of course)

Anyway, I might check EO later, tbh I never really played that. I'm on a NES platformer mood lately.
 

Jacob

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By the way, I just read J.D. Salinger's works and the writing style reminds me of an average internet forum post. It also reminds me of my old sci-fi short story I wrote when I was 15, but it seems that Salinger tries to mimic a teenager's thought, and my writing style was meant as an attempt at being edgy.
 

Machocruz

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Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems
This is just...so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I don't think anyone here has ever tried to argue this one before. I haven't even seen the most overzealous of KKKodex members try to argue something like Morrowind can hold a candle to the likes of Grandia, Resonance of Fate, or even Nioh. Western RPG's get away with zero personality and dull presentation because of "muh moral ambiguity" that hipsters latched onto for no reason other than they think they're somehow above a generic good vs. evil high fantasy story that presents itself well (See: Dragon's Dogma*). And don't even get started on full action games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta. The West is so far behind in terms of systems all it can do is copy and hope it pans out.
It hasn't

* - Ending was a complete curveball and turned the generic high fantasy tropes on its head, and was extremely refreshing.
You don't know where to begin because your mind is stuck on systems = combat. I wasn't even referring to combat, although ToEE pastes the vast majority of turn-based JRPGs, but that's an outlier. There are other systems at play in RPGs. FFS 99% of JRPGs haven't evolved in party mechanics, you can't even break off with your thief to go scout ahead, disarm traps, and unlock chests. I've seen no character creation as complex as Daggerfall or any of the good DnD adaptations, when JRPGs have any at all. Quest design not as intricate as Fallouts or Arcanum (Yes I know about Way of the Samurai. What else). World simulation not on par with some of the Ultima games, Gothics.

So yes, when you have interesting things to do outside of combat, farting around towns, and saying Yes or No to static NPCs, you can get away with having bland, drab presentation. Yeah Morrowind combat is laughable compared to Grandia and many others*, but tell me about the spellmaking and enchanting systems in Grandia. Tell me about its implementation of guilds. Or its travel systems. About stealth, pickpocketing, an alchemy system. Or the many other things MW does that most JRPGs don't do at all. What you lose in combat you gain in several other areas. And since we are bringing notRPGs into it, I get to bring in Jagged Alliance 2, which is arguably the greatest tactical game of all time. No need for fighting or rhythm game derived gimmicks.

You don't even have to cheat and bring in pure action games, which aren't even relevant to the topic. Because I will be the first to say that the Japs are the kings of action/arcade. I started on the consoles and the arcades back in the 80s. I saw their mastery as it evolved. They created the Action-RPG, contrary to what Diablo fanboys believe. But hey, you can use guns in some JRPGs, so lets compare combat in those to FPS and tactical shooters. Quake 3 smokes Parasite Eve's combat yo :roll:

Etrian Odyssey and Shin Megami Tensei are Wizardry clones for console, what is this with "don't come close."
I do know that SMT has lots of demon to catch/fuse, but the early game demons are quickly obsolete in combat (Except for some spell you don't have yet in higher level monster, I think).

Calling SMT and EO Wizardry clones doesn't do them or Wizardry justice. Besides, apart from being FPP dungeon crawlers, the gameplay focus of these titles are on different things and play they very differently. EO is purely combat, SMT is almost purely combat with some focus on the dungeons and Wizardry is the most balanced of them all where the dungeon crawling itself is just as important as the combat. EO has pretty poor dungeon crawling because the dungeons are simple and lack real puzzles, but the combat is a lot deeper than in Wiz, for example. It doesn't make much sense to try and hand wave jRPGs as simplified cRPGs when they have done many things better and/or with more depth and complexity.
What I mean simplified is that it cuts down many of the non-combat elements, which SMT game is, compared to most cRPGs out there. And to be honest SMT is a bad example of an average JRPG, just as Fallout is a bad example of a average cRPG. Calling it "simplified" was never meant to be a "hand waving" (tbh I had to google that, it seems to have a pejorative meaning), it really means that JRPG has a more focused gameplay elements. And when that aspect fails, they have nothing to save themselves, at least in my judgement. I think this focus is also why they have limited appeal to cRPG fans. (Beside anime of course)

This is exactly right. And seeing as how if I'm going to combatfag it up, there are other genres that serve me better, presentation is pretty important for JRPGs. I could overlook how simplistic Lunar: SSC is because the game had charm, it had life. Same reason I can overlook Final Fantasy 4 not having quests with multiple solutions and multiple outcomes, no movement in combat, or breaking and entering.

*But actually, you have combat options in Morrowind you don't have in Grandia or RoF or Nioh due to its real time environment, a more expansive spell list, and the fact that you and your enemies aren't separated out and bolted down in a battle screen like tons of JRPGs. Can you use a levitate spell to go to any higher ground you want, where your enemies can't reach you and shoot arrows or spells down on them in Grandia? Or Nioh for that matter?
 
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Damned Registrations

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Why is Grandia the poster child here? It's a shit series with shallow mechanics. And if the high point of Morrowind combat is that the enemies are too retarded to fight someone with levitation by grabbing a ranged weapon or taking cover, I think that kind of speaks for itself. The spellmaking and enchanting are also basically complete garbage unless you break the game entirely with them. Like 95% of the effects and skills are so overpriced they're entirely useless. Like pickpocketing. At least in jrpg's pickpocketing gives you worthwhile items without losing you the entire fucking game if you whiff a single roll. What does it do for you in an elder scrolls game? Savescum to avoid killing someone for whom there are zero consequences for killing? Get an infinitesimal amount of loot in a game with infinite lootable enemies and merchants willing to give away all their money by buy and selling the same item over and over?

These shitty, ill-conceived gimmicks are not worthy of praise. They're fucking bullet points for shysters. Jrpgs don't need to let you levitate to bug out the enemy AI because they give you a fucking airship, spells and items to avoid combat entirely, and their combat is entertaining and rewarding, instead of being a pointless slog.
 

Ash

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These shitty, ill-conceived gimmicks are not worthy of praise. They're fucking bullet points for shysters. Jrpgs don't need to let you levitate to bug out the enemy AI because they give you a fucking airship, spells and items to avoid combat entirely, and their combat is entertaining and rewarding, instead of being a pointless slog.

Try not to generalize so broadly. There are many JRPGs with great gameplay, and the same is true for WRPG.
 

Hyperion

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You don't know where to begin because your mind is stuck on systems = combat. I wasn't even referring to combat, although ToEE pastes the vast majority of turn-based JRPGs, but that's an outlier
Because combat is the bread and butter of most RPG's. Very few of those systems complement the actual combat. As an FYI, Grandia Xtreme had a magic crafting system with the Mana Egg creation. Sure, it wasn't personalized like Morrowind...but it was there, with lots of variety for magic. ToEE isn't exactly a good comparison to JRPG's because it wipes the floor with both JRPG and WRPG alike. Great combat, and all of the positives of a D&D game to boot. Shame it was a buggy piece of shit on release. Even on Temple+ I've had countless gamebreaking bugs and corrupt save files. I'm tired of doing the 3rd floor of the Temple for the 5th time tbh.
FFS 99% of JRPGs haven't evolved in party mechanics, you can't even break off with your thief to go scout ahead, disarm traps, and unlock chests.
Most blobbers are Japanese-made at this point. Or at least the ones worth playing. Yeah the former isn't possible because of mostly static party play (that new feudal Japan centered, real time one might change that though), but the latter are a staple. It's only missing from EO games, which opted for body part farming, as a sort of deterministic farming method instead of pure RNG.

Can you use a levitate spell to go to any higher ground you want, where your enemies can't reach you and shoot arrows or spells down on them in Grandia?
No, but that's something that doesn't make up for the fact real-time, first person combat is just a bad choice all around for RPG's. And then bethesda went and gave the option for a third-person view in Oblivion and...woof, suddenly first person wasn't so bad.

You don't even have to cheat and bring in pure action games, which aren't even relevant to the topic
It was more just a set up to make a joke at the expense of Divinity since I knew people would latch onto it. DOS is a decent game with fun combat that marked a bit of a return for the CRPG (I guess), but I don't think it deserves nearly as much praise as it gets. I've played it 4 times (original x2, EE x2) and every single damn time it comes to a slogging halt at Hiberheim. While the combat was enjoyable, all of the things that should complement its combat from character building to itemization were sorely lacking. Its dialogue system also made Dragon Age 2's look good. Whoever thought a rigged form of RPS was a good idea should have been fired on the spot. Not sure I could see myself giving it more than a 6.5 or 7 / 10, which I know is considered heresy.
 

Cross

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Why is Grandia the poster child here? It's a shit series with shallow mechanics. And if the high point of Morrowind combat is that the enemies are too retarded to fight someone with levitation by grabbing a ranged weapon or taking cover, I think that kind of speaks for itself. The spellmaking and enchanting are also basically complete garbage unless you break the game entirely with them. Like 95% of the effects and skills are so overpriced they're entirely useless. Like pickpocketing. At least in jrpg's pickpocketing gives you worthwhile items without losing you the entire fucking game if you whiff a single roll. What does it do for you in an elder scrolls game? Savescum to avoid killing someone for whom there are zero consequences for killing? Get an infinitesimal amount of loot in a game with infinite lootable enemies and merchants willing to give away all their money by buy and selling the same item over and over?

These shitty, ill-conceived gimmicks are not worthy of praise. They're fucking bullet points for shysters. Jrpgs don't need to let you levitate to bug out the enemy AI because they give you a fucking airship, spells and items to avoid combat entirely, and their combat is entertaining and rewarding, instead of being a pointless slog.
:lol: I can't imagine how massive a weaboo you have to be to display this level of delusion. Every single thing mentioned in your post is a deliberate misrepresentation of facts to make your arguments appear as if they're valid.

Airship travel (which, by the way, JRPG's copied from this little cRPG series you might have heard of called Ultima) is an abstract method of world map navigation, it's nothing like a levitation spell that allows vertical navigation of a 3D environment. JRPG's don't let you pickpocket from NPC's, they let you steal from enemies which is basically a convoluted loot drop. Spells and items to avoid combat? Like what? Stealth and invisibility spells are virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

JRPG's, by design, have always had more streamlined (read: more simplified and restrictive) mechanics than CRPG's, in spite of being a far better developed and better funded genre that thrived throughout the 90's and 2000's. And contrary to your claim, that applies to both non-combat as well as combat interactions. For instance, the OP of this topic described the Infinity Engine as 'execrable', presumably because it was a real-time adaptation of D&D. And yet, even Baldur's Gate has a wealth of tactical options that I don't recall seeing more than rarely, if ever, in JRPG's. For example:

Spells that alter the battlefield like Grease and Web? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Spells that summon creatures and temporary equipment? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Invisibility and Simulacrum? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Long-term status effects like level draining and petrification? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Status-inflicting abilities that are actually reliable and a viable alternative to dealing damage? Not entirely non-existent, but very rare in JRPG's.
 
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
The average codexer hates JRPGs because they don't want to admit that the Japanese may still be churning out shallow copies of Ultima and Wizardry, but those are still truer RPGs than modern Bethesda/Bioware stuff they all claim to hate, but pump hours into.
 
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laclongquan

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Spells that alter the battlefield like Grease and Web? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Spells that summon creatures and temporary equipment? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Invisibility and Simulacrum? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Long-term status effects like level draining and petrification? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Status-inflicting abilities that are actually reliable and a viable alternative to dealing damage? Not entirely non-existent, but very rare in JRPG's.

Let me take Final Fantasy 8 for a counter example, as I hold it to be a pinnacle of jrpg gameplay in term of innovative.

Spells that alter the battlefield like Grease and Web? Slow. If you are a good caster using breaks, you can double or triple cast. Because area-effect spell that is of level 2 class is laughable.
Spells that summon creatures and temporary equipment? They got summons (GFs) whose HP and XP is apart from characters.
Illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Invisibility and Simulacrum? that is DnD specific. Outside of DnD game there's no other game has it. False argument
Long-term status effects like level draining and petrification? There is that spell for both offensive and defensive, and curing items as well.
Status-inflicting abilities that are actually reliable and a viable alternative to dealing damage? The whole fucking FF8 system is for that purpose.

Learn to play Final Fantasy 8, grasshopper!

(And before you sneer at Final Fantasy, Chronos Cross game can work well as alternative)
 
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deuxhero

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6 is overrated. Half the game is a hyper linear slog (you can't even backtrack for a good chunk of that) with little customization (Espers only have one real choice till end-game, when the one speed raising one is unlocked, as AP is unlimited and the HP/MP increases are neglibile: Do you want strength or magic at level up?) and half the characters have abilities that are useless or quickly become useless due to poor scaling.

5 is better.
 

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