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The Worlds of Magic Thread - It's out... sorta

mastroego

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I have the feeling that some of these reviewers weren't long time MoM players.
Now if you judge the game against other modern games many problems are obvious. Also the launch and all that.

BUT, don't forget that the game was kickstarted specifically as a MoM clone/sequel and, in my opinion and the one of many players, that's what it's shaping up to be. If they can keep at it for a while longer.
 

Norfleet

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I have the feeling that some of these reviewers weren't long time MoM players.
Of course not. That is because when MoM came out, those reviewers considered drooling and pooping themselves to be the height of intellectually-stimulating activity, if they even existed.
 

covr

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I'm going to spend some money on this, just to support the developer. And it seems that in Potatoland steam version od WoM is about twice as expensive as boxed edition. That's what I called publishing!:outrage:
 

Norfleet

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I'm not sure why you would want to support this, considering that field reports indicate it's so bad it's not even worth pirating.
 

covr

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They've released 7 patches already, with loads of important fixes and I feel that I might love this game someday. It has potential and it is already more interesting that vanilla Civ5 or every Elemental game.
 

Whiran

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They've released 7 patches already, with loads of important fixes and I feel that I might love this game someday. It has potential and it is already more interesting that vanilla Civ5 or every Elemental game.
Every game has potential.

The problem with potential is that it may or may not ever be achieved.

One can only judge a game on what it is not on what it -could- be.

With seven released patches has anything significant changed? Does the game still contain game-stopping bugs? I'm hoping those are gone by now. The fact that you write about potential as opposed to reality does not grant a lot of confidence.
 

Norfleet

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The problem with potential is that it may or may not ever be achieved.
It never is. That is why we are not playing those games. They all ultimately fell short of their potential, sending us in search of the next thing.
 

kyrub

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They all ultimately fell short of their potential, sending us in search of the next thing.

Master of Magic seems to disagree (the game was ridden with bugs upon release and it wasn't until 1.2 patch that it became solid and playable).

Will WoM repeat the way of its role model? It seems a harder task. Every game "with potential" needs something extra that carries it until it is fixed. MoM was broken at release but the concept was visionary and the presentation had a special charm - both of which (from what I heard) are not the strong points of WoM. They need to fix the game ASAP, or it will be another false dawn.

What I'd like to know from guys who played it: what is it that sets WoM apart from the original? What makes it better?
- Are its mechanics significantly better than MoM? Share the details - in which points?
- Are the spells a big improvement over MoM?
- Is the realm balanced to the point you cannot use formulaic play to win?
- Is the AI more competitive? Can it use the game mechanics cleverly against the player?
- Are the diplomatic fonctions detailed and better than original? Can AI use them well?
- Does the AI cheat?
- Does it overcome other AI opponents?
- Is the presentation better at least in some aspects, fonctionnality, level of information?
 

mastroego

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Sorry don't have much time to go in depth AND and I haven't played much yet really (I want the few missing hero models and spells, first).

The mechanics are very similar, it feels like a clone/sequel of MoM, even through the rough patches here and there.
The spell system I think is the one, evident "improvement" over MoM - whose system was great already of course!
Lots of circles and spells, an interesting "overlap" system, and it feels like there's more freedom at game creation.

The UI is hit and miss.
Some things are clunkier than MoM's, but the really ugly issues are being ironed out (damn, that army splitting mechanic was really idiotic, but is gone now).
Overall, I still prefer the modern UI (if imperfect) to MoM's which is too outdated for me, honestly.

AI and balance are a work in progress, no real point discussing it now.
The AI cheats heavily at the moment, but, as I take it, improvements here are high priority for the team.

Presentation is very nice at game creation.
The world map is kind of ugly, as stated many times.
The game BADLY needs cutscenes or at least static screens (I'd be more than fine with those actually) for relevant discoveries and events.

The wiki gives most basic info but in-depth info must still be organized.

So no, it's still no MoM, but it really, really is the closest thing there is (and there's ever been) to it.
And unlike MoM which cannot change anymore (except for your patches, of course) it's still evolving steadily, and it will be moddable, so the situation isn't nearly as grim as someone here is depicting it.
 

kyrub

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The spell system I think is the one, evident "improvement" over MoM - whose system was great already of course!

MoM spell system represents its biggest weakness, I would say. If the new spell system is original and well-thought and without spells being carbon-copy of each another (see Elemental), there could be a game worth buying. MoM "clone" has little appeal to me, as I find the original charming (which WoM apparently is not, yet). Sequels need inner improvements and better AI, the way Xenonauts did it.

Maybe the spells. What is the overlap mechanics?
 

mastroego

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This was posted on Steam (where I sometimes lurk) by one of the devs.
It's the planned Road Map for post release improvements:

  • 04.16 Increased zoom out
  • 04.16 Autoscouting for units
  • 04.16 Quickstart from Main Menu
  • 04.16 Multiplayer
  • 04.23 Strategic Map improvement
  • 04.23 Defenders attacking first when in city or fortified
  • 04.23 Sounds fully implemented
  • 04.30 Sorcerer Lords pack DLC - free
  • 04.30 Titans DLC - free
  • 04.30 Defensive buildings
  • 04.30 Casting spells AI improvement
  • 04.30 Starting new game with last settings
  • 04.30 Saving customized Sorcerers
  • 05.07 Tutorial
  • 05.14 All heroes models added
  • 05.14 Demo version of Worlds of Magic
  • 05.14 Special boosters on tactical maps
  • 06.14 Selecting the display size of trees on world map
  • 06.14 Selecting the display size of mountains on world map
  • 07.14 New race DLC - free
  • Q3 PS4/XBOX ONE version
  • continously GUI improvements
  • continously General AI improvements
  • weekly Bugfixing

If they can stick to this, I'll be mostly satisfied by the second half of May.
So far 13 patches have been released.
I hope the community can keep pushing for these guys, mistakes were made but they don't deserve some of the treatment they got.
 

Haba

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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
but they don't deserve some of the treatment they got.

Really now? They deserve everything they got and more. They made the choice to release half-finished game, even when reviewers and players alike underlined how critical for the final product it'd be to fix the major faults (broken AI).
 

Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I was checking out the Steam forums and saw people complaining that Gamespot gave this game 2/10, so I went to check it out.

I thought this summed up a lot of my problems with the game. Sadly, most of the comments are people complaining that Gamespot hasn't reviewed Pillars of Eternity. I was hoping for more lulz in there.

I found myself wanting to quit games not because I didn't have the ability to win, but because it had become a chore to manage it all.

Maybe I just don't like these kinds of games as much as I thought, but this is a big part of it. You have to have a city every few squares if only to keep the AI from dropping cities between your cities. It becomes quite cumbersome to manage after a while. Not to mention you have to keep track of the 50 or so enemy armies moving across the map (most of which are just one unit), in case one of them is actually something that you need to deal with. I tried playing whack-a-mole with these armies, but even that was just a chore.

I guess I can summarize for people who think it's tl;dr:
  • too much micromanagement
  • not enough difference between races
  • not enough difference between sorcerer lords
  • every city builds the same buildings
  • nothing to do in early game
  • fast rush to end-game units
  • no penalties for expansion
  • all the planes are the same
http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/worlds-of-magic-review/1900-6416080/

Worlds of Magic Review
It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
by Daniel Starkey on March 31, 2015

After years of constant warfare, my orcish hordes were on the precipice of victory. Countless nations fell beneath the tread of their boots as they subjugated all manner of fantastical races. In their quest to conquer the unhallowed--an evil empire of the dead--the orcs had brought every mountain and every shore under their control. They had harvested every crop, mined every ore, and collected every artifact they found on their campaign. Yet, something was missing: despite being at the height of their power, these orcs had become wracked with boredom

Despite the fantastical premise, Worlds of Magic commits too many cardinal sins to count. As a game of fanciful wizards and creatures, you'd expect it to be vibrant and alluring. Instead, its landscapes wholly lack imagination. The excitement of battle is ground to excruciating tedium, buried under mindless tasks and micromanagement. Worlds of Magic can't even claim a decent feeling of progression or power escalation--a key piece of any proper 4X strategy game--to drive engagement. The result is a tepid mélange of half-baked ideas and pointless hindrances.


These soldiers are literally fighting on tar.
Worlds of Magic begins, as these affairs so often do, with you selecting a civilization to lead to victory. The choices seem diverse enough. Standard humans, elves, orcs, and dwarves are there, as well as dragon people, insects, and the undead legions. The potential breadth of play styles should be a great platform upon which to build a game, but here it just isn't. Except for the unhallowed, none of these races has anything unique about how it plays. No matter whom you pick, the similarities are too obvious, slashing potential replayability and depth.

After picking your race, you select a sorcerer lord to lead your armies. You may choose a pre-built one with specialized traits, or you can create your own and customize him a bit, though either way, your choices lack impact or import. I, for example, chose as my first leader R'jak, a powerful lich. By his description, he should be a powerful undead monstrosity with an abject hatred for everything living. In play, he's like any other leader, custom or not: He has a few spells that do a little damage, and a few more with minor utility. The problem here is twofold. Firstly, leader choice is disconnected from race selection, so it's weird but possible to have an army of normal humans led by an undead warlock. Secondly, many of the sorcerer lords have plenty of overlapping spells, again diminishing the effect of picking any one for his specific powers or abilities and robbing him of any uniqueness. Instead of playing the strengths of the undead against R'jak, they each need to be able to function independently for the sake of balance. That leaves either choice without any personality of its own.



Most of your time with Worlds of Magic is spent managing resources, building up your armies, and conquering. In an ideal world, these separate systems would work together to create new opportunities for players to flex their tactical muscles. At every conceivable turn, however, Worlds of Magic finds a way to strip every intricate layer strategy game designers have implemented over decades' worth of genre evolution.


Because even on a world of sand, we need oceans… made out of sand.
Cities are at the heart of Worlds of Magic. They are your only means of border expansion, production, and resource generation. Cities are also the source of most of the problems. In a normal 4X game, cities are somewhat malleable. You found them, build a few structures or improvements nearby, and tailor them to what you need at any given point. Worlds of Magic doesn't permit such flexibility, however. You still found cities wherever you please, but their borders never expand, you can't construct any tile improvements, and you can't micromanage any piece of them beyond how many citizens are dedicated to food, production, or research. City buildings also follow a complex unlock tree that require you to build too many structures that don't relate to your chosen focus. It is feasible, for example, to build a city near a rare resource and then push a city towards economic output. Doing so, however, requires that you build structures that offer no benefit beyond unlocking buildings that you need, making them effective dead weight.

This also only serves to highlight another of the game's fundamental flaws: There's no associated cost with having dozens or even hundreds of settlements. Your citizens build up a degree of unhappiness, but it's a local issue and not tied into a single global resource, like happiness, that you need to manage. Moreover, if you don't maintain positive food and gold income at all times, your units begin to disband and your buildings are decommissioned. Since cities usually generate positive income, and since the number of municipalities you control is your sole production cap, the whole system forms a disastrous feedback loop. You build more cities so you can build more settlers so you can build more cities. In each of those new towns, you erect the same buildings and manage them in the same way. This is one of the only consistently viable ways to win, but it also means burdening yourself with tons of repetitive work wholly devoid of actual strategizing.

I found myself wanting to quit games not because I didn't have the ability to win, but because it had become a chore to manage it all. What's worse is that tedious management is so critical in the early game, it was common for me to skip 50 turns or more just waiting for my population to build up. That's not OK: It's grinding without any tangible reward. Most turns should somehow require your attention so that you are engaged and invested. Tellingly, I made a macro to auto-skip turns while I walked off to go make myself dinner. And again, I stress this is the most successful strategy in Worlds of Magic, by far. The other main option is to build units and construct buildings early on, but the upkeep cripples your resource production, making you decommission units you just ordered. The whole thing is an absolute mess.


After a while, the game just starts naming cities "ORCS1," "ORCS2," etc.
In what must have been an attempt to make these worlds seem denser and more interesting, the land is dotted with swarms of high-level monsters. They don't spew forth and attack you, but they're intended to be among the first things you find on any given map. They often have valuable treasure or can net you a powerful monster of your own. Because they are so well-guarded, you can't do anything with them until the mid-to-late game, so they sit there, taking up space. Your only other opponents are AI-controlled races and countries. Given that there are at most seven of them scattered across several planes which, in turn, can only be accessed via special portals containing the same high-level monsters, there's nothing to do in the early game. Over time, your units get stronger and you get better, but for that to be satisfying, you need an idea of your early limitations. Worlds of Magic trades that for a mad rush to the late game so you can do anything of note, and problematically, those late-game units need more gold and food for upkeep, reinforcing the city grind.

An alleged selling point of Worlds of Magic is its tactical battle system. Should two opposing units meet, you jump into a turn-based tactical mode to maneuver your troops around. Battles are functional, but together, the tactical system and strategic one kill Worlds of Magic's pace. It's nice to defend a city against an attack with only a handful of troops and some clever positioning, but tactical battles require you to take five or ten minutes away from a game already bogged down by the worst kind of micromanagement. There is an auto-resolve feature that helps with the monotony, but it does a poor job of actually mimicking the results you would expect to see should you manage these battles on your own. In my testing, I found that even when I had many more units of ranks far higher than my enemy's, I would often inexplicably lose fights. Granted, choosing auto-resolve means playing the percentages, but when two basic enemy soldiers defeat five or ten veterans, there's a problem.

Worlds of Magic doesn't just have issues with its strategy mechanics, either. It suffers from an array of bugs, glitches, and crashes, and its frequent texture pop-in makes it an absolute eyesore. During some of the tactical sections, maps fail to load entirely. On at least four occasions, my computer locked up and I had to restart the machine. Countless tiny bugs can also cause certain attacks to miss, actions to not work, and the user interface to become completely unresponsive.


Sometimes, the map won't even load in.


I could forgive some, though not all, of these issues if Worlds of Magic had something intriguing to show. Part of the appeal of fantasy worlds and settings is that they show you the special, the unreal. Worlds of Magic only ever offers the mundane. In Worlds of Magic, there are several magical races strewn across disparate worlds, each with its own governing element. The leaders of these races are powerful wizards that bring world-buckling sorts of magic to bear on their foes. These sorcerers are a force unto themselves, and they dominate everything. The premise plants the proper seeds for an enchanting adventure, but Worlds of Magic doesn't cultivate them. As one of these grand wizards, your spells are feeble at best, and every plane--no matter the element--features similar mountains, oceans, and other topological features. Yes, the shadow plane uses tar pits instead of water, but that's nothing more than a palette swap. In contrast, Warlock and Warlock 2 have the same structure and purpose as Worlds of Magic, but they are executed with far more skill. Warlock's plane of life has tiles that heal you and weaken the undead. The plane of fire has dozens of volcanoes and lava that have real effects on how you play. Your spells, too, can reshape vast swaths of land, raising valleys or wiping away mountains. In that series, there exists a sense of agency that unfolds as you explore the bizarre settings.

Worlds of Magic has none of that mystery. Its fantasy world is undercut by bland artistic direction and a lack of conviction. Choices about your leader and civilization that should matter lack weight in favor of same-ish armies and leaders that blend together. Grand-scale strategy that should make any player feel powerful, or at the least clever, gives way to the dullest slog. Worlds of Magic tries to mimic the cleverness of its superiors, but reaches far beyond its ability to perform.
 

Dim

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Don't release free dlc. U need the money, I think.
"no real difference between sorcerer lords"
:whatho:
Its like the reviewers did not bother to play the game or got the version from hell.
 
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mastroego

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  • too much micromanagement
Fair criticism.

  • not enough difference between races
Uh? :roll: Are you sure you're not thinking of some other game like Fallen Enchantress?

  • not enough difference between sorcerer lords
  • every city builds the same buildings
  • nothing to do in early game
  • fast rush to end-game units
  • no penalties for expansion
I must repeat that probably not everyone who plays/reviews this now is an old MoM player.
A fair review should take MoM into account for a de-facto MoM sequel, marketed as such.
The balance between city building and Magic is the same as MoM's.
True, there's fewer options for cities compared to other games, but the game leans MORE towards magic and spells.
And the spells are FUN, just like MoM's.
It's the MoM's formula, it worked, and people were expecting just that.
The Sorcerors are certainly no less diverse than MoM's: if anything, they added options in this field.
Other issues you list may be valid but are also dependent on fine-tuning.

  • all the planes are the same
I agree with this, the should add more "planar diversity".

To me and other players the game feels a lot like MoM even with big and small flaws still present.
It's NO minor achievement after TWO decades of "MoM spiritual sequels" that never even came close to be something that played remotely like it.
That gamespot review is completely off here, sorry (not that I'd trust reviewer anyway), what the fuck, 2?!?!!! Does he have a feud with these guys or something?
They gave Dragon Age 2 8/10 (!!!!), on what do they base their reviews exactly?
(I know the answer, don't bother)
 
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Dickie

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Just to be 100% clear, the bulleted list was a summary of the article and not a summary of my problems with the game. Not that I disagree with it a lot, but it looked like you were responding directly to me.

  • not enough difference between races
Uh? :roll: Are you sure you're not thinking of some other game like Fallen Enchantress?
This was my paraphrasing of "The potential breadth of play styles should be a great platform upon which to build a game, but here it just isn't. Except for the unhallowed, none of these races has anything unique about how it plays. No matter whom you pick, the similarities are too obvious, slashing potential replayability and depth."

I've only played it maybe 10-15 times or so, but it seems like each race has approximately one building that the others don't and it grants +1 food or -10% unrest in this city or something similar. The units, I think, have some more diversity (all dragons fly, no archers for orcs, IIRC), but it doesn't change much of how you play.

  • not enough difference between sorcerer lords
  • every city builds the same buildings
  • nothing to do in early game
  • fast rush to end-game units
  • no penalties for expansion
I must repeat that probably not everyone who plays/reviews this now is an old MoM player.
A fair review should take MoM into account for a de-facto MoM sequel, marketed as such.
The balance between city building and Magic is the same as MoM's.
True, there's fewer options for cities compared to other games, but the game leans MORE towards magic and spells.
And the spells are FUN, just like MoM's.
It's the MoM's formula, it worked, and people were expecting just that.
The Sorcerors are certainly no less diverse than MoM's: if anything, they added options in this field.
Other issues you list may be valid but are also dependent on fine-tuning.
Bold part mine. I think that it's fair to say that the game should copy MoM if that's what they were going for, but I also think it's fair for a reviewer to review this game on its own merits as well. If the game has a bunch of flaws (subjective), it wouldn't make sense to me to say "well, it's OK because it's copying this other game that had the same problems."

If he were a MoM fan, I guess he could've added something to that effect at the end. "If you loved MoM, you'll love this!" Maybe that would help for the fans of those games wondering if they should buy this, but I don't know if those are the kinds of people who read Gamespot reviews anyway.

That gamespot review is completely off here, sorry (not that I'd trust reviewer anyway), what the fuck, 2?!?!!! Does he have a feud with these guys or something?
They gave Dragon Age 2 8/10 (!!!!), on what do they base their reviews exactly?
(I know the answer, don't bother)
It's also possible that, in the absence of Doritos, he decided to review based on how much he liked the game. It's not like he said "lol those grafx. xD turn-based 2/10."

2/10 seems a bit low to me. I think 4/10 would be more fair. It's just slightly below what I'd consider a mediocre game because it feels more like work than a game after it gets rolling a bit. Again, this might just be that this kind of 4X isn't my cup of tea. Somehow reducing the micromanagement would go a long way towards making this game good.

I'm still hoping they'll fix the game (I see they have ambitious plans), and I'll probably still buy the PS4 version as well, since it's better than anything I've played on PS4 so far.

Disclaimer: I know this is the Codex, but I'm still not intending to antagonize you. If anything I said has that effect, then you maybe misread my tone.
 

cvv

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These reviews have an absolute zero value. No mention of Kickstarter, no mention of MoM. No mention if the author actually likes TB strategy games. So when he says it's tedious, is it because he's a CoD fag or because it's a genuinely tedious TB game?

Journalism.
 
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please forgive a brief off topic: i have my little experience in reviewing videogames.
if you mention you're not a fan, all the answers are "fuck you, you don't understand how i feel, you're not allowed to touch my favourite game ever". if you mention you were among the world best players of the previous episode, all the answers are "fuck you, you're only here to brag, you're not allowed to touch my favourite game ever".
you just can't please retards.
 

cvv

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No, you can't please retards but if you mention you like TBS reasonable people will conclude you at least know what you're talking about.

If I was to review a flight simulator I'd probably talk about boredom and tedium too.
 

kyrub

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Blaming reviewers... do we need to ressort to this? Xenonauts had pretty good reviews and it is a TBS and a remake of original game...
The people who made WoM need to put their acts together, quick. I have seen this sort of argumentation when buggy Elemental was released ("they don't understand us TBS gamers blah blah"). Not good enough.


For me, the worst part is, when bugs are finally fixed (IF they are fixed one day), when new promised DLC is addded, they most probably won't have time and money to make a decent AI... Same old story.
 

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