Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[TigerKnee]

How useful Power Cast in W8 really is?

Its effects on damage dealing spells is easy to see as you can tell - miniscule. I would not care about it for characters whose purpose is to either cast damage spells or buffs.

Now, the status effects one is a bit iffy. I've heard claims that Powercast works by adding virtual levels to the formula for purpose of inflicting status ailments, which given the very wonky status effect infliction rate formula, might actually make a significant differences at certain points... if it is true. Problem is, no one seems to be able to actually do tests to figure out if this is the case.

edit: Piety affects Spell Points, not Intelligence, which paradoxically does not seem to have any effect on it.

 

[trotof]

Problem is, no one seems to be able to actually do tests to figure out if this is the case.

Yeah, I guess we'll never know for certain and theories will remain theories.
Concerning INT and SP: I just did a quick check with Brilliant Helmet (+INT) and Puck's Cap (-PIE) and indeed you seem to be right, Intelligence doesn't affect spell points whatsoever.

 

[Average Manatee]

Interesting, so my perfectly powergamed casters maxing power cast are actually worthless?

The ability to cast a spell with such force that it increases the original effectiveness and duration of the spell and makes it more difficult to resist.

Does "make it more difficult to resist" mean higher chance of status ailments or decreasing the enemy's resistance to damage? I always assumed the latter.

 

[TigerKnee]

I decided to see if there was any research done on this since the last time I played and came across this Steam guide

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=899973393

The English is kinda bad but it does have a lot of formulas.

<Silicoid>Power Cast helps decrease the spell damage lost due to LVL difference and RESISTS . See spell damage formula<Silicoid>

Y = (LvLD - 2 * LvLA ) * 3 + resist
IF Y <= 0 THEN exit
Y = INT ((Y + 1) / 2)
Y = Y + RND(Y) + RND(Y)
IF Y> 100 THEN Y = 100
Z = Damage * Y * 0.01
NewDamage = Damage - Z

WHERE:
INT - integer part without rounding
resist - resistance to the magic of the monster
damage - initial damage
NewDamage - new damage in view of lowering the

That is refined formula magic damage reduction based on the spell power and power cast-and

...
the X = UM - KK
...

KK factor is calculated like this (approximately ):

KK = (K1 / 2 + K2) / 2 + Cs + UP / 2
-------------------
X = KK * PC *0.01
KK = X + KK
--- ---------------

Note:
WHERE:
SZ - spell Power (1,2,3 , 4,5,6,7)
UP - LVLAttacker
PC - Power cast level

K1, K2 - dependent constants spell types:
For example:
Energy Blast, Frost: K1 = 2, K2 = 1
Fireball: K1 = 6, K2 = 3
Noxious Fumes: K1 = 5, K2 = 3

I don't have the time to plug in numbers and see how it actually changes.

This is supposedly Google Translated from an old Russian forum thread - if we have some Ruskies, it would be better to see if they can get an actual translation

https://kamrad.ru/showthread.php?s=...994bab&threadid=58460&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

 

[Average Manatee]

The interesting part to me there is:

Y = (LvLD - 2 * LvLA ) * 3 + resist

So, a level 20 vs. level 20 spell being cast puts the defender at a -60 resistance penalty? That sounds kind of silly.

Unfortunately it doesn't define what X/UM/KK mean so I can't tell how power cast relates to the final damage.

 

[TigerKnee]

Unfortunately it doesn't define what X/UM/KK mean so I can't tell how power cast relates to the final damage.

Yeah, I think this guy bungled the source.

Hopefully someone actually trained in the language can translate

 

[Average Manatee]

Wtf, that guide has some weird information. Intelligence affects chance to hit? I guess I need to pump INT on my fighters and dump it on my casters? Also whats this CtP? Looks like chance to penetrate? Does W8 model armor like that, or is this something to do with critical attacks being translated weirdly?

What's the chance some dastardly Russians are just trying to fuck with us?

 

[TigerKnee]

Chance to Penetrate is an actual thing - that's why you have abilities like Ninja "Thrown Weapons Auto-Penetrate"

Even if Intelligence affects to-hit, you probably rather take Dex or Speed on your fighters for that purpose instead because those give you higher initiative and extra swings along with to-hit. Really the only thing knowing that as changed for me is that I might make the +5 Int boost fountain a higher priority even if my party is mostly non-casters

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Interesting on the spell points from Int, I thought it had a lesser effect than piety but still did something.

I know all the weapon skills list intelligence along with whatever other stat they benefit from. The effect can't be too useful and it certainly isn't worth sacrificing the extra damage of str, extra attacks and ac of dex, or extra swings and initiative of speed. If I recall you can't get much more than 25 levels or so in Wiz 8, so that's 125 extra stat points, not enough to spread around liberally.

Personally I've noticed extra swings aren't as reliable as extra attacks, everyone gets 4-6 attacks per weapon by the endgame anyway (attacks x swings), and bonus ac is far more useful than bonus initiative, so I always go Str/Dex until maxed, then Vit/spd


I've also started my Wiz 6 run, or Picking Locked Doors: The Game.

 

[Average Manatee]

Chance to Penetrate is an actual thing - that's why you have abilities like Ninja "Thrown Weapons Auto-Penetrate"

Even if Intelligence affects to-hit, you probably rather take Dex or Speed on your fighters for that purpose instead because those give you higher initiative and extra swings along with to-hit. Really the only thing knowing that as changed for me is that I might make the +5 Int boost fountain a higher priority even if my party is mostly non-casters

I thought that penetration worked something like:

Chance to hit = base chance - enemy dodge + weapon user skill - max(enemy armor - penetration, 0)

So that penetration was effectively something that negated armor's effect on reducing your chance to hit but did nothing vs. unarmored enemies.

But the guide says that chance to hit is totally separate from chance to penetrate. And that somehow armor decreases chance to hit but not chance to penetrate (which is purely stat based)? So you need to roll for penetration against an unarmored opponent, and if their stats are high, you won't penetrate? wat?

EDIT: Maybe the translator left some term out of the formula. It defines AC of specific body parts but doesn't use it.

 

[trotof]

As it so happens I am a proud citizen of Mordor glorious Mother Russia so I understand russian quite well. Problem is I hate math and don't know shit about coding. Looking at all those formulas make me feel like a retarded goblin who's trying to cast spells from Elminster's spellbook. Also, my english skill isn't all that great (especially russian-to-english part of it).
But I guess I can try to translate Silicoid's original post. Give me a couple of days.

 

[trotof]

Interesting. He is saying that only stat's base value affects growth rate of dependent skill. So it appears that, for example, INT bonus on Brilliant Helmet is quite useless.

 

[trotof]

Well, here you go. I hope I am better than google-translate at least.

Spoiler

He starts by explaining that those formulas are taken straight out of disassembled Wiz8.exe and so, he claims, their correctness is around 97%

Sequence of actions when spell is cast

1. First step is to calculate spell damage according to its power level:

SUM = 0
CYCLE FROM 1 TO power_level
RND = Random[minimum_damage..maximum_damage]
SUM = SUM + RND
END

Example:
fireball has parameters (1-7)/power level
If you cast fireball at power level 3, then the algorithm will look like this:

SUM = 0
CYCLE FROM 1 TO 3
RND = Random[1..7]
SUM = SUM + RND
END

2. Next, obtained spell damage value goes through a reduction formula and then is applied to a monster (or player character):

Approximate formula of magic damage reduction

X = ML - CL*2
Y = X*3 + RESIST
IF Y<=0 THEN exit
Y = INT((Y+1)/2)
RND1 = Random[0..Y]
RND2 = Random[0..Y]
Y = Y + RND1 + RND2
IF Y>100 THEN Y = 100
Z = Y*Damage
Z = INT((Z*1374389535)/2^32)
Z = INT(Z/32)
NewDamage = Damage - Z

WHERE:
INT - integer part of a number without rounding
ML - monster level (or character level if the spell is cast on you)
CL - character level (or monster level if the spell is cast on you)
RESIST - magic resistance of target
RND1, RND2 - random numbers
Damage - initial damage value
NewDamage - new damage value after reduction

Constants:
1374389535 = 0x51EB851F
2^32 = 4294967296

Example calculation:

Condition: level 10 character attacks level 12 monster, who has resist of 110%
Task: calculate by how much damage = 20 will be lowered

Solution:
X = 12 - 10*2 = -8
Y = -8*3 + 110 = 86
Y = INT((86+1)/2) = 43

Maximum damage:
RND1 = 0, RND2 = 0
Y = 43 + 0 + 0 = 43
Z = 43*20 = 860
Z = INT((860*1374389535)/4294967296) = 275
Z = INT(275/32) = 8
NewDamage = 20 - 8 = 16

Minimum damage:
RND1 = 43, RND2 = 43
Y = 43 + 43 + 43 = 129
Z = 129*20 = 2580
Z = INT((2580*1374389535)/4294967296) = 825
Z = INT(825/32) = 25
NewDamage = 20 - 25 = -5
NewDamage<0 so no damage occurs

Mean Damage:
RND1 = 21, RND2 = 21
Y = 43 + 21 + 21 = 85
Z = 85*20 = 1700
Z = INT((1700*1374389535)/4294967296) = 544
Z = INT(544/32) = 17
NewDamage = 20 - 17 = 3

Answer:
Maximum damage = 16
Minimum damage = 0
Mean damage = 3

Conclusions:
1. Resists are just coefficients, not percents
2. If resist = 100 it doesn't necessarily mean that damage will be reduced completely
3. Damage reduction is influenced by difference in levels between attacker and attacked, magic resist and luck (real life luck, I guess)

He is then asked about the importance of power cast to which he answers with another formula (it's wrong, though, and shit is more complex than he previously thought, not translating it) and explanation that the point of power cast is indeed in adding "virtual levels" to a caster. Also adds that power cast doesn't affect buff spells such as Soul Shield etc. But I think he's wrong on that one. Duration of 0 power cast Soul Shield is 10 rounds, while 90 power cast Elemental Shield lasts for 12 (both have the same base duration).

Formula of magic damage reduction with spell power level and power cast taken into account
...
X = ML - KK
...

Coefficient KK is calculated (approximately) like this:

KK = (K1/2 + K2)/2 + PL + CL/2
-------------------
X = KK*PC
X = (X*1374389535)/2^32
X = X/32
KK = KK + X
------------------

Note:
I have trouble translating this. He is omitting INT to reduce the clutter and, I think, says that all integer divisions are truncated. Does that make sense?
1374389535 = 0x51EB851F

WHERE:
PL - Power level (1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
CL - Character level
PC - Power cast

K1,K2 - Constants dependent on spell type:
For example:
Energy Blast, Frost: K1=2, K2=1
Fireball: K1=6, K2=3
Noxious Fumes: K1=5, K2=3

 

[Filthy Sauce]

oh god. took me 3 days to roll up a W6 party.

I think the highest bonus I rolled was 19 on my monk. I have never played wiz6 before- im also going to play on expert and map shit by hand. Im actually sort of scared to even play the game now. The idea of my characters sucking (or messing up on Multiclassing) is actually quite terrifying after you spend days trying to get s decent party together.

 

[octavius]

I wouldn't worry too much of the multi-classing; it's not that important. The hardest part of the game is the beginning, and with no Bard (for free Sleep spells) it will be even more difficult!

Also, instead of starting with a Valkyrie, it may be a better idea to start with a Priest character who can switch to Valkyrie either right away or after a few levels. In Wiz 6 mana recovery is based partly on starting class, and the base spell casters get better mana recovery than the prestige classes.

 

[Fenix]

Unfortunately it doesn't define what X/UM/KK mean

As comrad trotof already translated, but not defined, UM is a Monster Level here possibly.

 

[janior]

try-hard party tbh fam

 

[Darth Roxor]

took me 3 days to roll up a W6 party.

and here i was, thinking people kept talking all the time about multiclassing being near-necessary in wiz6 was due to it being impossible to roll all the hybrid classes at the start

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I wouldn't worry too much of the multi-classing; it's not that important. The hardest part of the game is the beginning, and with no Bard (for free Sleep spells) it will be even more difficult!

Also, instead of starting with a Valkyrie, it may be a better idea to start with a Priest character who can switch to Valkyrie either right away or after a few levels. In Wiz 6 mana recovery is based partly on starting class, and the base spell casters get better mana recovery than the prestige classes.

Yeah, I did this and now my Valkyrie has 100 theology by the dwarven mines.

Also, I didn't realize Wiz 6 Bards got Mage spells too, which is nice.

 

[TigerKnee]

Sat down and finally completed my 6 Fairy run in Wizardry 8.

Originally it was supposed to be a 6 Fairy Fighters run, but I decided to cut myself a bit of slack and lower it down to "Heavy Martial Class focus" - the fairy's advantages really doesn't make up for the disadvantages of having some pretty arbitrary equipment limits (did you know they can equip Rocket Launchers, but not Blunderbusses?), but it's not really that much of a self-imposed challenge run either.

I'm using the Wizardry 8 Enhanced mod, which makes some balance changes that I will point out if it's different from the main game. Really I think the change I feel the most is that a lot of the attack consumables are very good now for the early game, such as Devil Dust.. The attack magic buff unfortunately doesn't seem to do much because resistance calculations seem pretty fucked up in this game.

Party:
Valkyrie - Terrible equipment progression for Fairies - you have Spear and then Spiked Spear for a good stretch of the game, which is only found in one of the Retro dungeons.

The good news for those playing Wiz 8 Enhancements is that you do get a final weapon in the form of the Maenad's Lance which was unused in the base game. Too bad it's in the Sea Caves, which is most likely the 2nd last dungeon you're going to visit since you have to take out Nessie.

By the way - Fairy Valkyries do NOT start with a Spear despite being able to equip one. I should have made a human one, then delete it so that I could start training the skill from the beginning instead of having to wait until Burz. I gave her a sling before then so that she can use Throwing consumables

Alchemist: Only pure spellcaster in the team. I figured I would need the money for consumables because I won't be able to have access to buffs naturally. Power-trained Earth using Knock Knock and saved the points I would have spent in Earth Magic to train Slings instead, putting points in Strength/Dex on level up. I actually felt she was doing more damage than my Ranger, for some reason.

Fighter -> Ninja: Dual Weapons / Staff & Wand. You would be surprised how much of a beatstick a Fairy Berserking with 2 Fairy Sticks is in the early game.

Unfortunately it doesn't really last for long since the base damage is just too low. I actually wanted to do a Rod of Sprites build, but in retrospect I really shouldn't expect a rare item like that to drop. There's a couple of fairy only weapons that honestly could use a buff in either availability or power considering how rare they are and this is one of time.

Eventually I fixed the issue by just class-changing her into a Ninja once I got the Cane of Corpus - all the levels in Fighter gave her a lot of skill points and a big HP pool. Sure, it kills her spellcasting potential but I already have an Alchemy caster.

Ranger: Like the Valkyrie, didn't start with a Bow either. Ended up changing to a Fighter for a bunch of levels for the exact same reason as to why I did it for the Ninja before changing back to the Ranger for the Ranged Critical feature.

When she was a Fighter, Knock Out apparently works even with a Bow, which is actually pretty cool before you get your Ranged Combat up because I think the rate is higher.

Fighter: Swords / Artifacts. Weapon progression goes Rapier -> Diamond Epee -> Fang. I think there might be a few swords you could upgrade in between so the progression isn't as bad as the Valkyrie. Did a lot of utility work like using the Amulet of Healing.

Rogue: There's not enough swords to go around since the Fighter is taking Fang. Unfortunately, Fairies can't use Bloodlust. Just did a simple Thieves Dagger x 2 build, which is solid if not impressive with a decent chance of insta-kills.

RPCs:
It's kind of a shame there's really only 2 good RPCs, maybe 3 (Saxx)

RFS-81: Standard Staff of Doom build. My fastest guy so he also serves double duty of tasks like drinking Potions of Haste, which somehow affects the whole party

Vi: Made her hold the Bloodlust because no one else could. It's just that good of a weapon even though I had to build up Sword from scratch.

In retrospect, I feel like I should use a Monk for one of the characters, most likely the Ranger, who feels like she contributed the least in my eyes.

Critical Strike as a skill is kinda pointless to invest into - 25 per point when a lot of the higher end weapons can provide 5-15% kill without any investment in a completely separate skill.

Consumables are really fun in Wizardry 8 - it does make the class balance weaker since a lot of utility caster advantage can be done through items (Like Amulet of Healing). It feels like being able to use strong items is one of the things modern RPG fighters are missing.

I feel like the game gets very boring once you hit the Rapax Castle - Rapax are HP bloat, yet they hit like pinpricks, so you spend a long time killing enemies that can't hurt you so bunker down for a long haul unless you get lucky with Insta-kills. One of the climatic end fights being a battle against an army of Rapax completely falls flat when you realize you've been doing that for the past few hours. I powered through the end for the purpose of beating this challenge, but if I didn't have to, I think I would just consider the game won once you reach that area.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Finished Bane of the Cosmic Forge. Blech. Felt less like a game you savor and more like a game you suffer through. DW Bradley loves randomness so much he should marry it.

I used maps and FAQs a few times, so no bragging rights for me.

Starter party was: Fighter/Fighter/Fighter/Priest/Priest/Bard
Ending party was: Lord/Monk/Samurai/Valkyrie/Bishop/Bard

I started off the fighters with enough stats to class change to Ninjas, then transitioned them to their final classes. I figured fighters would level quick and start off with decent gear to survive the beginning. In hindsight all those levels without Kirijutsu were a waste and if I did it again I would start them all off as Samurai, then class change to fighters ASAP.

The first Priest went to Lord right away and then to Valkyrie. I used her as a back-row poker and support caster.

The second priest went back and forth between Mage and Priest until she had all the spells I wanted, then changed her to bishop when I had the stats. All-purpose caster, also did surprisingly good damage with the Holy Basher.

Bard went to samurai and then back to bard. I was surprised Bards had actual casting ability in this game which is good since the instruments mostly suck. My primary nuker.

Ending level was 12-13. I've read people recommend level 18-20; I wonder A. Why? and B. How? The enemies in the final area give around 10k xp per battle (sometimes way less!), with 400k to level that's 40 battles per level. Doable but not fun, and doesn't include all the time spent resting and reloading. And it wasn't like the bosses were hard, Xorphitus was a joke. Maybe they don't expect you to class change this much? The mid-game has an effective soft level cap around 9-10, where you just can't gain any levels anymore without obscene grinding or moving on to the endgame. Class changing is the best way to circumvent this.

On the plus side, after playing Wizardry 6, Crusaders of the Dark Savant looks fucking amazing. Also much easier than the last time I tried playing it thanks to my overpowered import weapons. The xp curve seems better; the enemies in the Munkharama dungeon are giving Hall of the Dead-level experience, which is kind of funny.

Now, can someone explain to me who thought it would be a good idea to have NPCs steal quest items and walk off with them?! If I see the Gorn king one more time he's fucking dead.

 

[octavius]

Ending level was 12-13. I've read people recommend level 18-20; I wonder A. Why? and B. How?

Because people love to grind. God forbid their parties should have to break a sweat in a hard fight.

My own characters were levels 13-16. The one character who didn't class change during play ended up lvl 16, the rest who class changed around lvl 5-7 ended up lvl 13-14. The difference in resistance to high level enemy spell casters was noticeable.

On the plus side, after playing Wizardry 6, Crusaders of the Dark Savant looks fucking amazing. Also much easier than the last time I tried playing it thanks to my overpowered import weapons. The xp curve seems better; the enemies in the Munkharama dungeon are giving Hall of the Dead-level experience, which is kind of funny.

It certainly looks better, but it will make you suffer far more than Wiz 6 did, with it's increased encounter frequency and HP bloated enemies.

Now, can someone explain to me who thought it would be a good idea to have NPCs steal quest items and walk off with them?! If I see the Gorn king one more time he's fucking dead.

Why not? You can steal items from NPCs, trade/buy (IIRC) or loot the items from their corpses.
The very best thing about Wiz 7 is that the gameworld is fairly dynamic, and things are not entirely predictable.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Ending level was 12-13. I've read people recommend level 18-20; I wonder A. Why? and B. How?

Because people love to grind. God forbid their parties should have to break a sweat in a hard fight.

My own characters were levels 13-16. The one character who didn't class change during play ended up lvl 16, the rest who class changed around lvl 5-7 ended up lvl 13-14. The difference in resistance to high level enemy spell casters was noticeable.

On the plus side, after playing Wizardry 6, Crusaders of the Dark Savant looks fucking amazing. Also much easier than the last time I tried playing it thanks to my overpowered import weapons. The xp curve seems better; the enemies in the Munkharama dungeon are giving Hall of the Dead-level experience, which is kind of funny.

It certainly looks better, but it will make you suffer far more than Wiz 6 did, with it's increased encounter frequency and HP bloated enemies.

Now, can someone explain to me who thought it would be a good idea to have NPCs steal quest items and walk off with them?! If I see the Gorn king one more time he's fucking dead.

Why not? You can steal items from NPCs, trade/buy (IIRC) or loot the items from their corpses.
The very best thing about Wiz 7 is that the gameworld is fairly dynamic, and things are not entirely predictable.

HP bloat huh? Starting off near Ukpyr from importing was a nice kick in the teeth, but once I gained a single level it became really easy. Is kirijutsu just as effective or are enemies more resistant?

It's pretty anticlimatic to solve a difficult series of puzzles and challenges, work your way through a dungeon, and find an empty chest. The fact this can happen multiple times is really damn annoying. You can buy/steal/loot the quest items from the NPCs but it's just a hassle. In my case, an NPC said the Gorn king had taken one of the maps; I found him soon after and he said the Xheng guy had already taken it from him. Now I have to hope he still has it when I find *him*. This kind of stuff is just an intentional waste of the player's time.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I have five lvl 9 dudes who've never multiclassed (fighter, thief, ranjer, mage, priest; idea was to multi fighter and thiaf into samurai and ninja but well them level-ups weren't very generous for me ) and a valk who multi'd from fighter around level 4 and is now level 9 too. I have a feeling I'm doing something wrong

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I have five lvl 9 dudes who've never multiclassed (fighter, thief, ranjer, mage, priest; idea was to multi fighter and thiaf into samurai and ninja but well them level-ups weren't very generous for me ) and a valk who multi'd from fighter around level 4 and is now level 9 too. I have a feeling I'm doing something wrong

Yeah, stop trying to play the game like a normal person! This isn't a Bioware fake-choices casual console-peasant popamole button mashing game! /sarcasm


I am pretty sure the thief class is some kind of practical joke though, and they really do expect you to save-scum your level ups until you get the right stat increases.

To be fair you can't blame that one on Bradley, random stat points were a thing in Wizardry since the beginning. But none of the games have more powerful multi-classing than Wiz6 and 7, where the skill system makes it utterly broken.