Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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The Valve and Steam Platform Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Morgoth, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. SoupNazigender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Hey Hiver, I thought you didn't care about if people disagree? Why are you still arguing then? Why don't you go whiteknight some internet chick with magical left-hand friends while wishing you were even remotely as cool as them?
     
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  2. Scepticgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

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    Whatever did happen to hiver? I don't remember him being so full of rage a month ago.
     
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  3. villain of the storygender: ⚧ Unwanted

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    What's wrong, Hiver? Why fail your reading comprehension? Got a problem?

    By the way, if you haven't played They Hunger for HL, go and play it now. Brilliant mod that's almost a full game unto itself and it packs some serious professional grade content now and then.
     
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  4. Phelotgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    As a fellow Bungie fanboi, what do you think of Halo's story? Does it tie in with Marathon beyond a few homages?

    For the most part, I was completely put off by Halo, never played it and from what I saw of it, I was happy that I didn't. Bungie getting bought by Microsoft caused me massive bleeding butthurt and the company that emerged from it doesn't appear to be the same.
     
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  5. Menckensteingender: ⚧ Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver

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    Didn't Bungie make Oni before that?
     
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  6. Phelotgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Yes. I believe Halo was their first game under Microsoft and it was suppose to be one of the exclusives for XBox or something.
     
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  7. Menckensteingender: ⚧ Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver

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    I watched some Bungie documentary dealie on Halo and it's pretty safe to say Microsoft saved that project. Bungie had no clue what they wanted to do with it. End result wasn't great but it didn't join Grimoire in vaporware heavan.
     
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  8. The Boring Incarnationgender: ⚧ Educated

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    Wasn't it supposed to be an RTS?
     
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  9. Menckensteingender: ⚧ Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver

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    Third Person adventure game.
     
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  10. Ed123gender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    It was strongly implied they were part of the same universe.

    http://halostory.bungie.org/marathon.html

    Honestly I lost interest in the RAMPANT speculation around Halo 2 or so. Even if Bungie originally planned for it to all tie together in the way Pathways/Marathon did, there were so many canonical merchandizing tie-ins that it would've been impossible for the writers to retain a sufficient level of creative control over the setting. Besides, what's left of the studio don't own the IP anymore.

    As for the game itself, I thoroughly enjoyed it on Heroic/Legendary. At that level it's pretty tactically-minded for a straight FPS, not to mention highly atmospheric. The Covenant felt genuinely alien and menacing. The sequels mostly fucked up the mechanics with jetpacks, dual-wielding & lulzy, unbalanced weapons like automatic mortars and half-a-dozen different sniper rifles. 2 and 3 are pretty fun with a BRO, however - particularly the Scarab battles in 3. ODST and Reach are shit. I dunno if I'd recommend playing the HD REMAKE that came out a few months ago, as the new graphics appear to have fucked up the art direction and I'm unaware of whether the gameplay is functionally identical to CE or not. Also I just can't take the setting seriously anymore.

    Oni was originally a Bungie title, but was sold to Take 2 (relatively) late in development. I'm not really familiar with its development beyond those facts. I know it had quite a bit of shit cut and/or re-arranged, which is why it feels a little bare-bones for such a lengthy game.


    It was originally designed as an RTS with mechanics unique to the setting, then it evolved into the form we're all familiar with from the Mac trailers - and the rest is history.
     
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  11. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    How can you talk so much about Bungie and not mention Myth :rpgcodex:
    Also, wasn't this thread about Half-Life
     
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  12. Ed123gender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    We're talking about developers who actually had a shred of talent at some point in their existence. :smug:

    Huh, Myth? You mean....



    :troll:
     
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  13. Phelotgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    What's funny is that after Infinity pretty much everyone at Bungie felt they had concluded the series and wanted to do something different. Besides that, Greg Kirkpatrick left and he pretty much wrote the entire Marathon universe or at least Infinity. I wonder what he's up to now?

    I always liked Bungie for having fun with their lore and keeping things vague and fun, but still serious enough not to be a complete joke. The tie ins with PiD and Marathon seem kind of stretched. I suspect they simply reused cool names, but just went with it. It's fun thinking that the player in Marathon is using tech the "ancient" US government got from some alien race called the Jjaro back in the 1990's (I like picturing Bill Clinton watching an alien hologram while getting a BJ from Monica :lol: ) in which they had to put to sleep a dreaming alien god.

    Anyway, here is a link to a retrospective on Infinity and here is Randy Reddig's little reaction to it, in case anyone is interested. Reddig did a lot of the levels for Infinity and went on to work on a few other games.
     
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  14. Phelotgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Begone with thee! Actually, from what I've heard 3 isn't so bad, but 1 and 2 are great games. Pretty cool how a company can go from making FPS to a RTS and pull both of them off.
     
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  15. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

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    Myth is more of a proto-Total War tactical battle game than an RTS.
     
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  16. Ed123gender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    He became a teacher iirc.





    I like how it's entitled "pre-XBOX", as if there's no need to go into specifics beyond that. May as well say "antediluvian" :lol:
     
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  17. DraQgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    That's fairly obvious given that the way you moved about the Citadel was obviously a result of some brainfart on part of the devs - climbing into restrictive "coffin" twice, only to get disarmed each time was hardly the highlight of HL2.

    About the rest of stuff - unlike DX, Strife, even STALKERs, HL and HL2 were not just pure, but purist FPS games - no dialogue trees or such stuff. Deal with it. Given how many codexers bitch about genre hybrids I expected more appreciation for such purism, but I digress.

    It couldn't. Because the devs made a decision to make it more involved and make it an important element of the narrative, even if not exactly interactive (though NPC reacting to what you were looking at was a very nice touch).

    And, at the very least the "dialogue" in HL didn't make me facepalm, unlike, say FO Master not noticing his Übermenschen were sterile. It's often technobable, but the kind of technobable that doesn't make person with cursory understanding of the subject facepalm.

    Except we've been over that - it's not dialogue nor cutscenes. It's NPCs talking and scripted stuff happening without any sort of dedicated mechanics distinct from normal gameplay. You can't really skip shit if the game doesn't know there is something to skip and yeah, if RPGs allowed me to handle conversation (involving dialogue trees or topic lists) seamlessly during gameplay I'd jizz myself unconscious even if the price was inability to press FFWD button.

    STALKER and mil sims are much newer. Back when HL was new we were excited finding out that the Glock you could fire underwater in game can indeed fire underwater IRL (although as in without suffering catastrophic malfunction, rather than actually hitting anything), and were more than willing to forgive stuff like MP5 with 50 round bananas.

    And DN3D didn't have all that interesting weapons. Apart from freezer and shrinker shit was forgettable and generic and I'd happily pick gauss cannon over both.
    At least HL had reloading and altfire.

    AI was often derpy and I didn't really get all the hype, but aliens were definitely NOT a minor thing.

    Not only that, alien behaviour was cool and as massive incline over the usual stuff as STALKER animals were over the usual derpy kamikaze wolves.

    No. Unreal used simplistic collision cylinders which sucked. Amusingly enough Source version of HL apparently cannot into innovative and novel 1998 technology of hitboxes made of different materials.
    :decline:

    Well I was never enthusiastic about that, but it was conscious decision to remove as much as possible of non-player protagonist from Freeman. This included voice.

    I can agree with that. OTOH HL is the first game I remember that had enemies you couldn't just hit hard repeatedly while strafing a lot, one of the rare games at that time trying to make genuine sense with enemy and level design (even if latter was usual industrial shit for most time), one of the very rare (at the time) FPS games trying to tell actual story rather than killkillkill and so on.

    It was a big thing. Maybe if I knew in advance it would spawn call of derp and related shit I'd be more wary of it, but maybe not - I still like Diablo despite it infesting RPGs with derpy point and click H&S model.
    And, while there was a lot of scripting in HL, it was hardly as overdone and in your face as in modern rail shooters.

    I don't think I've ever had script breakage in Hexen. Maybe once in the last hub.

    Other than factor of 3 or 4 increase in damage and possibly material factoring in?

    I actually liked Xen. Not for the gameplay, obviously, but it was genuinely, overwhelmingly alien.

    Actually, I think your analysis is spot on here.
    :salute:
     
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  18. Azrael the catgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Re Draq: agreed. A lot of folks either have poor memories, or weren't gaming at that time, becaues they've got their FPS progression all over the place. HL was a much earlier game than STALKER, CoD et al. The games that it was being compared to were Quakes, Hexen et al (yes it was later than Hexen and the other Doom engine games, but it was the first pure shooter to significantly move the genre along from the Doom concept).

    The biggest giveaway is calling the marines generic enemies. TODAY they are generic. Back then every shooter had you fighting demons and aliens. The idea of having the marines unexpectedly storm the place, with AI that did something more than move slowly towards you shooting in a predetermined pattern, was mindblowingly innovative.

    To restate that last part: pure shooters, at that point in time, were still using the Doom model of having enemies with a movement pattern (that they wouldn't break, and would not react to your actions) while randomly firing. The standard way of defeating ANY fps enemy pre-HL was to strafe while continuously firing into it. No reloading. No ducking behind a wall to avoid a salvo. Just strafe and hold fire.

    You know what I remember everyone going 'omfg' over when HL came out? The fact that you couldn't just cheese past every enemy in the game by hiding behind a doorway and blasting all the enemies as they come blindly in one by one (as they would in shooters at that point). That was such an engrained tactic in shooters, because people just took it for granted that AI couldn't possibly know how to react to that. If all the AI can do is move at you and fire, then obviously the easiest way of dispatching them would be to fire a shot, then wait behind a wall/door and kill them all as they come through. Because they couldn't design AI to react intelligently to that, games would instead throw in bullet-soaks with strong melee attacks, forcing you to stay at distance (where you'd switch to the 'other' tactic of strafe and hold fire).

    People fucking shat themselves when they tried the standard 'hide behind the door and wait' tactic in HL1 and the marines would react by just throwing a grenade in to kill you. It seems really fucking simple now, but that was actually a recent development. Pre 1998 that just wasn't what FPS games did.

    Nevermind material based hitboxes and armour affecting damage. Where the fuck is that in the pure shooters pre HL. Sure, the SS games had it, but they were (a) hybrids and (b) criminally underpurchased, lauded by game critics but hardly known outside of small cult followings.

    I'm actually not a big fan of HL, because I'm not a shooter fan (hate twitch games). But pretty much every comment I've read in this thread that says the marines were cliched, or HL wasn't a big jump for its time, is comparing it to games that came quite a while after HL, not what was standard at the time.
     
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  19. Scepticgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

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    So would I, but the key difference between this and HL is: interactivity. Non-skippability is an obvious price to pay for interactive dialogs (I don't think I need to explain why), but the problem with HL's approach is that I just have to sit there being bored and waiting for the script to run its course. Not so bad when the script is a 10-second crumbling hallway, BIG problem when it's a 2-minute dialog. I don't really care that on a technicaly standpoint it's seamlessly integrated and so on - on a practical point I'm standing there being bored and waiting for the script.

    [​IMG] :yeah:

    Though reloading was pretty cool. Pretty sure it wasn't the first one, but it was probably the game that made everyone else implement it.

    What, really? This sucks! I used to think there was no point to HL:Source, but apparently it's a decline over the original...

    I actually like the style they went for with the aesthetics, and the enemies' hand placement is indeed superb and meshes excellently with the look of the room they're in. It's made pretty easy by the linear design obviously, but still, credit where credit's due. And while I do feel they abused the "marines in big room with crates" and especially the placement of those fucking ceiling horrors, the fact that I rage 13 years later at those things is probably the best praise I can give to this particular aspect of the game. Even if it annoyed the shit out of me as I played.

    Yeah this one I'm not so sure about. The story itself was pretty much Doom all over again (and as I said before I don't buy the whole Freeman-as-a-PhD thing - from the way you play him he's pretty much identical to Doomguy) and while they tried to make a difference by adding detail, none of it is of good quality enough to matter IMO.

    Of course not, but let's face it, it was the Black Ops of its time, because no one else had (ab)used scripts as much. In fact I had to restart Unreal several times before it caught me because the very first level, with its multiple scripts, was a constant reminder of HL and I kept abandoning the game with an "ugh, not again" feeling. Fortunately, Unreal gets much more reasonable once you get out of the starting spaceship.

    The most infamous is with the citadel Heresiarch, which sometimes won't spawn, and for well over a decade nobody could figure out why or how, and the 1.1 patch (which supposedly fixed this) didn't fix anything. There were also several others you could break, mainly any "earthquake" script if you tried something funny like running too quickly through it, or using some exploit to enter the room from a direction the game doesn't expect, and so on. The only really major one is the Heresiarch, but that one's game-stopping so it's pretty bad.

    I keep telling myself I should replay HL1. It's been so long, and after replaying some other shooters and liking them more than I remember I keep wondering if this'll happen with HL as well. But then I remember even the opening damn rail cart scene and lose the will.
     
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  20. SoupNazigender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    That's what I said. It's a shit game.

    HA HA HAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHH. No, seriously. I had to leave the room and laugh in the kitchen because it's the morning and I didn't wanna wake up the girl. How in the fuck is HL2 a "purist" shooter? When you stand around for hours on listening to godawful dialogue or monologue as if it was some shitty RPG where someone to forgot to write and record the PC's lines? When you spend half the game traversing linear corridor levels in terribly handling vehicles? When the second half of the game is spent doing PHYSICS PUZZLES? How is this purist? Seriously, how DUMB do you get, DraQ? This was possibly the stupidest thing anyone said in this whole thread, even worse than the changing FPS landscape thing.

    Yeah, what a nice touch. More like a half-assed attempt to make it seem at least a little bit interactive when it was not. It wasn't an important element of the narrative because there IS NO narrative. There's nothing you need to know outside of "you've been asleep for years, there was a war, go shoot dr. breen" - that's what your so-called PURIST FPS would do. HL2 is just an attempt at coming up with something that would make a bad FPS with boring gunplay seem at least a little interesting to braindead fanboys.

    It made me facepalm through each and every dialogue ever after meeting Barney. Everything after that was pure retardo. "NO LAMARR NO GOOD GIRL" "OH NO TEH TELEPORTER IT IS TEH BROKENED" "WE MUST RESCUE ELI GORDON COME ON" wow so deep and thoughtful and not at all facepalm inducing

    EXCEPT WE'VE BEEN OVER THAT. It doesn't matter what your definition is, it doesn't matter whether it's dialogue or cutscenes or whatever the fuck you decide to call it, you gronard. It needs to be skippable, just like any other part of any game that strips you of control entirely, ESPECIALLY if it's as boring and banal as HL2's dialogue scenes.
     
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  21. Twinklegender: ⚧ Liturgist

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    What? How about Outlaws that dealt with human enemies *exclusively* (with the exception of rare hostile wildlife), had authentic arsenal with reloading and alt fire implemented, and where on max difficulty 2-3 shots from the lowliest revolver could lead to death?
     
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  22. SoupNazigender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    But did it have excellent dialogue like "WE DON'T GO TO RAVENHOLM"?
     
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  23. Make America Great Again Darth Roxorgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    Hahaha, really?
     
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  24. attackfightergender: ⚧ Erudite

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    half life 2 is pretty fucking serious, lets talk about it for 12 pages bros
     
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  25. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

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    Fix'd (and no, this is not a justification for the length of the conversation, quite the opposite)
     
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