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The Valve and Steam Platform Discussion Thread

attackfighter

Magister
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
2,307
I like to sit back and remember a simpler time, when you could work HL2 fanboys up into a foam-mouthed frenzy just by posting this pic

igayr9.jpg
Man, water levels suck.

Also what the fuck happened to Sam Fisher exactly? Is he still wearing his awesome goggles?

Like how he's supposed to some kind of stealth secret agent guy, who happens to wear glow-in-the-dark goggles. Quality character design or what:smug:
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
And the worst part is since HL2 was so successful it started the trend of FPS games having less actual shooting and more physics puzzles, vehicle levels, scripted areas, exposition, etc. Hell they even ruined some of the pure shooting areas like forcing you into that Antlion hive thing in Episode 1 or 2 (can't remember). Yep, when I sit down to play an FPS there's nothing I want more than to crawl around in narrow tunnels weaving in and out of crevices trying to avoid the indestructible super antlion queen.

 

Sceptic

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
10,872
Divinity: Original Sin
Again, "standing around waiting for shitty dialogue to finish" is your exposition scene. It's a basic necessity of any story.
And why is reading walls of texts in an RPG considered :obviously:, but having three or four dialogue scenes in your game so awful?
For the same reason that any RPG that reads out to you every single word and REFUSES TO LET YOU SKIP IT is awful. I read about 3 or 4 times faster than the blumbering idiots talk. Unless the voice acting is super-awesome, I DON'T want to have to listen to it once I'm done reading. RPG, adventure, FPS, wargame, whatever the genre is.

Oh and forcing people to endure unskippable dialog and cutscenes isn't "a basic necessity of any story", it's a retarded conceit by full-of-shit developers who think their cutscenes are so awesome everyone will want to watch them every time they play the game.

HL compares positively to *any* Build engine game - even Blood.
No, and most definitely NOT in the weapon department. SW, Blood and DN3D all shit on it. Unless you have a hardon for more realistic weapons, but then HL doesn't hold a candle to more realistic shooters like STALKER, OFP and so on in this particular aspect.

Alien design was cool, but really it's a pretty minor thing, especially since you spend half the game fighting the marines instead, who are as generic an enemy as you could ever get. The "AI" thing was novel at first, but then you quickly notice that they're still as retarded as most shooters, especially when they do things like throw themselves ONTO a grenade instead of away. Really the best thing about the enemies was the hitboxes and the armor stuff - definitely innovative at the time, though I'm sure Unreal did similar stuff too, and just as well.

Couldn't care less about the first-person thing. But the really stupid thing is the one-way conversations. Even Bioshock handled this better, at least there the NPC's are set up so that they really are talking AT you and not expecting an answer, but HL1 dialog is written as if it's a two-way conversation then somebody went through and deleted all the speaking part of one of the characters. It's really very jarring, and not made any better by NPC's referring to it. You can't use the "immersion" argument for going all-first-person when you've got such an immersion-breaker as this.

We've talked about this before - I don't consider HL1 to be a bad game, and in fact I had some fun with it when I played it, though I also got pretty bored with it and only finished it because it wasn't bad and I'm a completist. My biggest peeve with the game though is the completely uninspired level design, and the overreliance on scripted scenes has something to do with this I think. You can't fill your game with scripted pieces and keep the level design open and interesting, because that could mess up many of the scripts unless you spend a ton of time testing them (Hexen tried the more typical Doom-type design with scripts and as a result it's really easy to accidenttaly get a script malfunction). But whatever the reason, I still blame HL1 for popularizing the linear-as-fuck levels in FPS. It wasn't as bad as the horrible shit we get now, but many of the elements that are overdone to death in the modern FPS we like to bitch about (endless movie-like cutscenes, script-every-second, linear corridor shooter) originted with HL1, and they were already overdone there.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
The story isn't boring. It's just simple. Simple but well-told. But if you can accept nothing less than MCA-type writing for a storyline, than yeah, no shooter is going to satisfy you in that department, obviously.

Oh, I understand. You're one of those poor souls who suffer from chronic Immersion Rejection Syndrome. My condolences.
Nice try, bro. But it doesn't matter whether you quietly sit around like a good child listening to your so-called "exposition" or if you throw shit about BECAUSE YOU'RE INCREDIBLY BORED. Ultimately, it's just bad design, and the quote I posted shows exactly what Deus Ex did right and HL2 did wrong. In HL2, immersion is worsened by the fact that the character doesn't talk in this dialogue scenes, because it's just so damn boring. The writing is shit. The characters are uninspired. And most of all, you can't interact with them at all.

If you're gonna freeze the player in space and force them to listen to a lengthy speech, let them have an impact on it. Otherwise it's entirely meaningless.

Oh and no matter what, the dialogue should be skippable, like I mentioned before. No matter if it's interesting or not.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
You just don't understand cinematic experience

Like that 8 minutes 34 seconds long cutscene in Kleiner's lab where you don't even shoot anything, just watch - CoD has nothing on it
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
If you're gonna freeze the player in space and force them to listen to a lengthy speech, let them have an impact on it. Otherwise it's entirely meaningless.

Yes, impact! For example, a QTE or three to keep you interested , eh, SoupNazi? :smug:
 

Stinger

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
1,366
I believe he means dialogue options or some way of personality changing based on playstyle judging from his Deus Ex example.
 

Medic

Scholar
Patron
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
134
Lol, you guys are really butthurt about sitting in one area for a couple of minutes? and how would you do the introduction? branching dialogue without consequences? no introduction at all, just shooting shit up? WTF
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Ahh, HL fanboys, the near relatives of Apple hipsters.

"So what if I can't play an actual game on this platform? It's so groundbreaking, deep, insightful and well-designed! And look how powerful it is! Fuck you haters!"
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
So what made HL so deep?

Back when HL came out there were no retarded hipsters like Infinitron. And I don't remember HL2 played by any either. People just played games.
This shit with HL(2) being unique, deep, emotionally engaging, complex, intelligent, sophisticated, smart, majestic while you just point your crosshair at enemy and twitch LMB until it dies is new to me.
 

Medic

Scholar
Patron
Joined
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Messages
134
Uh... make it so it can be skipped?

That's your solution? just skip the dialogues, cut the content to go directly to shooting phase? lol, so your only problem is that you have to listen to dialogues for a couple of minutes?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So what made HL so deep?

Back when HL came out there were no retarded hipsters like Infinitron. And I don't remember HL2 played by any either. People just played games.
This shit with HL(2) being unique, deep, emotionally engaging, complex, intelligent, sophisticated, smart, majestic while you just point your crosshair at enemy and twitch LMB until it dies is new to me.

Man, screw you. I didn't even play either game until many years after its release. I was an RPG elitist, who wouldn't touch any shooter, for the longest time.
 

Medic

Scholar
Patron
Joined
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Messages
134
you retards are the only people saying HL is deep, I'm saying it's a great game which had incredible impact on FPS genre, and you even acknowledged that.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
So what made HL so deep?

Back when HL came out there were no retarded hipsters like Infinitron. And I don't remember HL2 played by any either. People just played games.
This shit with HL(2) being unique, deep, emotionally engaging, complex, intelligent, sophisticated, smart, majestic while you just point your crosshair at enemy and twitch LMB until it dies is new to me.

Nothing really, HL series is as deep as a puddle. The first one was a decent shooter with some extended periods of all-too-unfortunate rail cart riding, some voiced NPCs and a Sinister Deus Ex Machina to assign too much significance to.
HL2 is more of the same, except with the shooting bit being less exciting and the NPCs being a little more worked out. Still, you can essentially fit both the plot and any possible message and connotation of both games on the back of a matchbox, each. How either can be hailed as what they're hailed, fuck if I know.

Of course, if you consider that HL1 came in at just the time when the prices on better PC components dropped significantly, it becomes a bit obvious that for many (not saying anyone on the boards here, but in general) it could've well been "Baby's First FPS", which in turn explains some other things about its popularity and over-interpretation.
 

Stinger

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
1,366
How either can be hailed as what they're hailed, fuck if I know.

Probably for the same reason Bioware games are held up as having 'immersive' and 'well-written' storylines. Standards are low when you aren't exposed to other media/haven't really played many games with good writing.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
How either can be hailed as what they're hailed, fuck if I know.

Probably for the same reason Bioware games are held up as having 'immersive' and 'well-written' storylines. Standards are low when you aren't exposed to other media/haven't really played many games with good writing.

Yeah, pretty much that. Combine with "Baby's First FPS" and media hype, and you got a winner.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's funny that you say that.
The person who convinced me to play HL (when I was bored out of my mind when I realized no more traditional D&D style RPGs were going to be released after Hordes of the Underdark and later NWN2) was my friend who is an English literature major and also one of the most brilliant people I know.

He likes Half Life precisely because the story is understated, without much good writing - without much writing at all - but still well told, through environmental storytelling. He hates all videogame writing because he think it sucks compared to real literature. Yes, even Obsidian/MCA writing.
 

hiver

Guest
So what made HL so deep?

Back when HL came out there were no retarded hipsters like Infinitron. And I don't remember HL2 played by any either. People just played games.
This shit with HL(2) being unique, deep, emotionally engaging, complex, intelligent, sophisticated, smart, majestic while you just point your crosshair at enemy and twitch LMB until it dies is new to me.
And what the fuck isnt new to you?

How either can be hailed as what they're hailed, fuck if I know.

Probably for the same reason Bioware games are held up as having 'immersive' and 'well-written' storylines. Standards are low when you aren't exposed to other media/haven't really played many games with good writing.

Yeah, pretty much that. Combine with "Baby's First FPS" and media hype, and you got a winner.
Morons. The beauty of first Half Life was precisely in that that it wasnt the first for many, large majority of players.
It did what no other FPS shooter did before it.

Asswipes.

It's funny that you say that.

He likes Half Life precisely because the story is understated, without much good writing - without much writing at all - but still well told, through environmental storytelling.
Precisely.
 

DwarvenFood

Arcane
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Jan 5, 2009
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6,408
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Atlantic Accelerator
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I like to sit back and remember a simpler time, when you could work HL2 fanboys up into a foam-mouthed frenzy just by posting this pic

igayr9.jpg
Man, water levels suck.

Also what the fuck happened to Sam Fisher exactly? Is he still wearing his awesome goggles?

Like how he's supposed to some kind of stealth secret agent guy, who happens to wear glow-in-the-dark goggles. Quality character design or what:smug:

Looking cool gives him more of a combat benefit than being stealthy. Should be obvious.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
It's funny that you say that.
The person who convinced me to play HL (when I was bored out of my mind when I realized no more traditional D&D style RPGs were going to be released after Hordes of the Underdark and later NWN2) was my friend who is an English literature major and also one of the most brilliant people I know.

He likes Half Life precisely because the story is understated, without much good writing - without much writing at all - but still well told, through environmental storytelling. He hates all videogame writing because he think it sucks compared to real literature. Yes, even Obsidian/MCA writing.

You gotta love it when little insecure losers start resorting to someone of unquestionable authority(tm) to try and secure their positions. "An English Lit. Major told me so". LOL
 
Joined
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Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Morons. The beauty of first Half Life was precisely in that that it wasnt the first for many, large majority of players.
It did what no other FPS shooter did before it.

This point keeps coming up and nobody has yet explained just what it did that no other FPS* did before. But if you mean "no other FPS that I played", that would lend you some credibility.

*: "FPS Shooter" LOL. Like "RPG game" or "RTS strategy".
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,437
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's funny that you say that.
The person who convinced me to play HL (when I was bored out of my mind when I realized no more traditional D&D style RPGs were going to be released after Hordes of the Underdark and later NWN2) was my friend who is an English literature major and also one of the most brilliant people I know.

He likes Half Life precisely because the story is understated, without much good writing - without much writing at all - but still well told, through environmental storytelling. He hates all videogame writing because he think it sucks compared to real literature. Yes, even Obsidian/MCA writing.

You gotta love it when little insecure losers start resorting to someone of unquestionable authority(tm) to try and secure their positions. "An English Lit. Major told me so". LOL

WTF, that wasn't an appeal to authority. I don't even entirely agree with the guy - I think videogame writing can be pretty good. I'm an easy-going, non-dogmatic guy, who can enjoy many kinds of things - unlike some people.

I was just trying to demonstrate that the point of view of somebody who finds HL's type of storytelling to be the best, isn't necessarily an ignorant one.
 

hiver

Guest
I dont care whether you agree or not. What he said is simply correct.
 

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