Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The Valve and Steam Platform Discussion Thread

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Well, I did have a touch of the Ass Burgers back then
Well, I'm a full blown one.
Still.

Interesting. I would have thought that comprehending the intricate description of a wide-ranging conspiracy, one involving many different names, places and institutions, and discussed by two unfamiliar faces that you wouldn't meet until much later, would be an exercise in social dynamics that aspies would find difficult.

When I grew out of it, I had to rewatch a whole lot of movies and reread a whole lot of books, because there was an entirely new layer of the narrative I could suddenly understand, that was entirely lost on me before.
It's not social dynamics. You have two very distinctive individuals with distinct augs helpfully complementing their natural physiognomy. They are clearly engaging in something sinister. Plague is either engineered or at least its outbreak is. It's clearly used as a tool. Primary and secondary units are heavily wrapped up in bureaucrat doublespeak, but given the mentions of augs immediately prior they aren't really hard to decipher. UNATCO gets name-dropped while you're presumably after tutorial familiarizing you with organizations, if not, Liberty Island is helpfully shown.

In result you effectively know beforehand what should only become fully apparent somewhere around Lebedev. Because of stupid intro. I don't really see any but most glaring acting and voiceacting flaws (I am quite perceptive when it comes to superb VA's, curiously enough), but here you don't need to follow any human-human intricacies, you have everything handed to you on a silver platter, you just have to follow the links shown to you.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,445
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, I did have a touch of the Ass Burgers back then
Well, I'm a full blown one.
Still.

Interesting. I would have thought that comprehending the intricate description of a wide-ranging conspiracy, one involving many different names, places and institutions, and discussed by two unfamiliar faces that you wouldn't meet until much later, would be an exercise in social dynamics that aspies would find difficult.

When I grew out of it, I had to rewatch a whole lot of movies and reread a whole lot of books, because there was an entirely new layer of the narrative I could suddenly understand, that was entirely lost on me before.
It's not social dynamics. You have two very distinctive individuals with distinct augs helpfully complementing their natural physiognomy. They are clearly engaging in something sinister. Plague is either engineered or at least its outbreak is. It's clearly used as a tool. Primary and secondary units are heavily wrapped up in bureaucrat doublespeak, but given the mentions of augs immediately prior they aren't really hard to decipher. UNATCO gets name-dropped while you're presumably after tutorial familiarizing you with organizations, if not, Liberty Island is helpfully shown.

In result you effectively know beforehand what should only become fully apparent somewhere around Lebedev. Because of stupid intro. I don't really see any but most glaring acting and voiceacting flaws (I am quite perceptive when it comes to superb VA's, curiously enough), but here you don't need to follow any human-human intricacies, you have everything handed to you on a silver platter, you just have to follow the links shown to you.

Well, I don't really remember anymore. I probably did realize at the time that the plague was controlled by these baddies, and also realized who the 'primary and secondary units' were.
But I'm fairly sure I didn't realize UNATCO was a puppet organization for the bad guys until Lebedev and JC's capture.
Walton Simons says 'he has someone in place' at UNATCO - which makes you think UNATCO maybe has a mole, not that the entire organization is just an arm of MJ12! (I guess he's referring to Manderley?)

The mentions of the 'old men pretending to rule the world' and Gary Savage at Vandenberg meant nothing to me and I totally forgot them by the time they became relevant.
 

Oriebam

Formerly M4AE1BR0-something
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
6,193
It's not relevant, but still noteworthy that people were actually guessing the AI thing right in DE:HR, back before the leak when one of the first trailers was released. Anyone know if the developers went as far as stealing that idea dismissing that?

Approach it as if you never played the game. You don't know what they mean by Vandenberg(or Savage), you don't know that they've practically taken over UNATCO(or even about Manderley), Silhouette is barely relevant, no direct mention of the Illuminati either, you also don't know about the cause of the plague or the deal with the cure, then there's the AI's who play a significant role in the plot and aren't mentioned, or what Page means by becoming a god

It doesn't make much difference, as you need information given later in the game to figure out things for sure, guess that's why people don't criticize it, though you can argue parts of it don't make much sense on purpose, and it can also be argued Page was established as the antagonist too soon, dunno

Problem is, I've read a novel or two in the genre before, so none of that would be "new" to me anyway. Alright, I don't know the names, but since they're mentioned, they'll be significant SO when I encounter them the first time I'll be OH THIS IS THAT GUY FROM INTRO and not "Hai who're you derpteedoo oh youre important!!!". Alright, I don't know about UNATCO, but presuming it's a group that seems to want to rule the world, safe to assume that the infiltration rate will be significant (Cyberpunk clichés, whee!). Silhouette - alright, that one's better since it's a group. Plague? Again, cyberpunk clichés - nanoplague, obviously, will be confirmed near-instantly or within first hour of playing, anyway, and hey, these assholes have the cure but rather hold the world by the balls and let people die rather than distribute it ----> FUCKING EVIL DIPSHITS. Plus the whole "Rule the world, ahhahahah" cliché, which always adds class to any game, film, novel or comic. Oh, and Illuminati is always at fault in a conspiracy, anyway, so it's a given.

If that's not enough to ruin an intro, let's add the poorly done direction to the mix - the whole thing sounds like it's made in an attempt to sound As Cool As Possible, which is one of the signs of Trying Too Hard. There's no subtlety, which, for a game that has to do with conspiracies if pretty bad.

Finally, as I already pointed out, why is this all given to me in a form of blatant exposition? DXHR actually works better on establishing the setting in the intro with a news broadcast than two people that KNOW or SHOULD know what's going on discussing it in a recap. Would it have been hard to dub the riots as a news broadcast? Probably not. Would it have been hard not to include the whole intro? Probably quite easy.
Wait. So Deus Ex is actually cliché? :M

I dunno man, only people in the intro that are directly mentioned are WS, Page and Savage...also a bunch of unimportant characters are shown

WS outright threatens the families of NSF dudes, executes them and then chastises you for sticking around the first or second time you actually see him in-game and he's also nano augmented, not to mention e-mails and creepy demeanor that screams antagonist

I dunno if you could say Savage is important to the plot(he's just the guy responsible for Vandenberg and the disaster at the Ocean Lab... his daughter too I guess) but IIRC whatever importance he has is already emphasized the second time he's mentioned/ first time he appears

Page is actually implied to be eevul(outside the intro) only after you're back to the US for the second time , so I dunno, not like it would make any difference anyway if he was implied to be one of the good guys

When I said the cause of the Plague I also meant the UC stuff, Versalife, I guess you can guess that

UNATCO is actually seen as a issue by WS and Page for some reason and they specifically mention a single person inside, which doesn't necessarily mean "significant infiltration rate"

Ambrosia is also said to be hard to make in large quantities by some characters... though that's right before the part when the player is supposed to be sure there's a konspiaracy IIRC

I don't have an opinion on exposition, anyway that's it
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,445
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In the lore, Gary Savage is said to be nothing less than the father of nanoaugmentation (what Hugh Darrow from DX:HR is for mechs).

In the Missing Link DLC for HR, they tried to fit that into the timeline (because from the main game, it looked like Megan would turn out to be the mother of nanoaugmentation, if anyone).

 

Oriebam

Formerly M4AE1BR0-something
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
6,193
Well, in DE he just makes his bros cause a disaster in a lab and fights the good fight with the cure or his scientists or something... oddly that wasn't very relevant to DE's plot

also he gives you a quest to rescue his daughter
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
WS outright threatens the families of NSF dudes, executes them and then chastises you for sticking around the first or second time you actually see him in-game
You don't learn that if you don't stick around.

Page is actually implied to be eevul(outside the intro) only after you're back to the US for the second time , so I dunno, not like it would make any difference anyway if he was implied to be one of the good guys
Uh, fundamental?
He wouldn't have to be implied to be good, just a background character.

Knowing the conspirators right off the bat kind of ruins the intrigue.

UNATCO is actually seen as a issue by WS and Page for some reason and they specifically mention a single person inside, which doesn't necessarily mean "significant infiltration rate"
Unless this single person is the fucking boss.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
DraQ also lost his virginity at 11 and solved the Riemann hypothesis at 14. No wonder he uncovered the plot of Deus Ex from the intro, he's clearly a genius, as demonstrated by his clever presentation of arguments and the reading comprehension of an aspie.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
So before HL there were no FP action games like System Shock and Strife? No Daggerfall and Uprising? Thief also doesn't count?
Only Doom?

So HL's "surreal experience" changed the genre by playing exactly like Quake but more linear and with cutscenes?
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Wait. So Deus Ex is actually cliché? :M

Well, technically speaking, anything is cliché to some extent, but well - the game itself uses genre and non-genre clichés much more sparingly than the intro, which is why it's so noticeable, for myself and as it would seem for DraQ at least. I suppose that for people unfamiliar with the genre it's not a biggie - as you and Infinitron point out in your own examples, but you have to consider that the writer/s actually were influenced by Cyberpunk and therefore could afford to be more selective with their own writings since it wasn't written by BioWare. The game itself shows that they can set up an intrigue and run with it in the CP way, the intro, on the other hand, does not. It can work for those that aren't too familiar with the genre though, I'll give it that.

Oh yeah, and the voice acting is quite awful in that intro there, but this was the time when people didn't in particular give a shit, so it's not really on my complaints list.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
In HL you also get ammo and rockets and the point and shoot. But HL's ammo and rockets were washed in dragon's blood before being included into the game entirely built on Quake's engine? Is that right?
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
It looks no different than Quake 2.
The only difference is that Quake takes place in surreal hellish areas and HL takes place in offices (with latter being "surreal" and former being generic to a citizen of Lebanon I guess)
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
How aliens on Earth in HL are different from aliens on Earth in Quake?

Yeah there are no facehuggers from Alien movies that nonetheless are somehow much less effective when attacking Gordon. I guess that's what makes HL groundbreaking and not stupid mid-90s PoS like System Shock
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
DraQ also lost his virginity at 11 and solved the Riemann hypothesis at 14. No wonder he uncovered the plot of Deus Ex from the intro, he's clearly a genius, as demonstrated by his clever presentation of arguments and the reading comprehension of an aspie.
2uhx2wz.png
detected.
 

Forgotten Friend

Educated
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
464
Location
Slain by a mudcrab
DraQ also lost his virginity at 11 and solved the Riemann hypothesis at 14. No wonder he uncovered the plot of Deus Ex from the intro, he's clearly a genius, as demonstrated by his clever presentation of arguments and the reading comprehension of an aspie.
Two things here.

First off, it shows he's full of crap because I usually figure out the plot to virtually everything immediately in broad outline and it doesn't spoil it for me. I know what the fucking plot of spartacus is going to be, should I therefore not watch it? They put foreshadowing and even huge hints into almost every movie made, it's not like it's a secret.

Second off, while the themes are obvious there's just no fucking way you could immediately know everything in Deu Ex in detail from the intro because while the theme is obvious there's just not enough info.

So is it a guy who's full of shit or who is so clueless he never gets the picture and was amazed this time he did? We may never know.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
No what it has come to is that Draq became fucking lame and joined the "hardcore" crowd.

LOL I figured out the plot of PS:T by reading the first letter.
 

Forgotten Friend

Educated
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
464
Location
Slain by a mudcrab
Laughing so hard now, holy shit.

Now I know the plot to this vidya game there's no reason to play it. I figured out a bioware game will have 4 things I can do in any order at the beginning, a betrayal, and then an epic climax where I learn about the villain's daddy issues. I'm a fucking genius.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
No what it has come to is that Draq became fucking lame and joined the "hardcore" crowd.

LOL I figured out the plot of PS:T by reading the first letter.

No, what's really going on is glorification of a shittily-made cutscene that's apparently deep and cool and mysterious while it has all BioWarean qualities about it. Lulz.
 

Oriebam

Formerly M4AE1BR0-something
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
6,193
don't complain if the quotes get broken :rpgcodex:

had this tab around for a while, too
WS outright threatens the families of NSF dudes, executes them and then chastises you for sticking around the first or second time you actually see him in-game
You don't learn that if you don't stick around.
Only reason I see for not sticking around is getting bored in the middle of the conversation or plain ignoring content

Page is actually implied to be eevul(outside the intro) only after you're back to the US for the second time , so I dunno, not like it would make any difference anyway if he was implied to be one of the good guys
Uh, fundamental?
He wouldn't have to be implied to be good, just a background character.

Knowing the conspirators right off the bat kind of ruins the intrigue.
What's fundamental? The difference Page being a background character would make? I fail to understand how would the game be much different, considering Page's "presence" only starts becoming less sparse by the time you get to HK(IIRC he's only mentioned as a philanthropist a couple times until you get back to NY, then shit gets obvious)


UNATCO is actually seen as a issue by WS and Page for some reason and they specifically mention a single person inside, which doesn't necessarily mean "significant infiltration rate"
Unless this single person is the fucking boss.[/quote]
what that doesn't contradict my argument, FFS man that's almost a theme inth egame
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom